Looking for a German Style Mentor

[passedpawn]

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/deoxygenation-revisited/
However, unless you cold side is flawless, don't bother worrying about the hot.

That LoDO site is pretty interesting. Using yeast to deox the water was very interesting, especially with the irrefutable DO graphs. But as Vale suggested above, it's probably pointless if I don't think it through, from mash to fermentor to keg.

If I was set up in a basement or garage, where things were fixed in place, I'd give it a shot. But I put away the equipment after a brewday, and I'm afraid the complexity (weight!) of the equipment make it a poor choice for my situation. Guess I'll have to settle for "good enough" pilsner.

 

[Big Monk]

Unfortunately it isn't. Once the water cools down (it has to if you're going to be using it for sparging or cold-side dilution) it will start absorbing O2 from the atmosphere. To avoid that you need to provide for an O2-free environment for the water to cool in. I think it's doable at the homebrew level using kegs and CO2 but it's still a bit more work than just boiling. It's also energy intensive but that's more of a concern for industrial operation and one of the reasons while they use technologies that allow the water to be degassed cold.

Many folks have switched over to using the YOS (Yeast Oxygen Scavenging) method to save energy and some time. We have a good amount of data showing efficacy of this method and coupled with a sufficient dose of antioxidants (Meta or Meta and AA) works very well and is dead simple to execute.

 

[Big Monk]

That LoDO site is pretty interesting. Using yeast to deox the water was very interesting, especially with the irrefutable DO graphs. But as Vale suggested above, it's probably pointless if I don't think it through, from mash to fermentor to keg.

If I was set up in a basement or garage, where things were fixed in place, I'd give it a shot. But I put away the equipment after a brewday, and I'm afraid the complexity (weight!) of the equipment make it a poor choice for my situation. Guess I'll have to settle for "good enough" pilsner.

I like the technique of turning mash / sparge water liquor by employing yeast and fermentables, essentially creating LODO water. When I get back to the point of brewing again, this is what I'm going to try.

See Post #122. YOS plus antioxidants and some other small mechanical changes means you can be oxygen free on the hot side with very few (and cheap) modifications to your system.

 

[Die_Beerery]

That LoDO site is pretty interesting. Using yeast to deox the water was very interesting, especially with the irrefutable DO graphs. But as Vale suggested above, it's probably pointless if I don't think it through, from mash to fermentor to keg.

If I was set up in a basement or garage, where things were fixed in place, I'd give it a shot. But I put away the equipment after a brewday, and I'm afraid the complexity (weight!) of the equipment make it a poor choice for my situation. Guess I'll have to settle for "good enough" pilsner.

Thanks, a lot of time and effort goes into it.

 

[Vale71]

Many folks have switched over to using the YOS (Yeast Oxygen Scavenging) method to save energy and some time. We have a good amount of data showing efficacy of this method and coupled with a sufficient dose of antioxidants (Meta or Meta and AA) works very well and is dead simple to execute.

Sorry but you clearly have no data supporting your claims, no matter how often you might make claims to the contrary.

 

[Lupulus]

You guys keep giving The Book precedence over actual physical reality. Kind of reminds me of another book and other groups of clearly similarly minded people... Where in the book does it say that Narziß himself is going to be paying for the associated (considerable) costs? 'cause a brewery is a business and like in any other business the bottom line is what really matters.

BTW is the English translation your own or is it from the official English edition? I ask because the translation for "in Hinblick auf eine sauerstofffreie Würzebereitung" is strangely missing completely. A fact that, curiously enough, makes the statement take on an absolute value which it does not have in the original text. The missing part translates to "in order to achieve an oxygen-free wort processing". So what Narziß is really saying is "If and only if you require an oxygen-free processing then the use of degassed water is absolutely necessary both for mashing as well as for sparging". The statement points to the fact that untreated water inevitably contains large amounts of oxygen, so that the use of untreated water would render any other measure such as the use of a Vormaischer or the flooding of all vessels and pipes with inert gas rather pointless. To paraphrase, it would be akin to setting up a new burglar alarm when burglars have already emptied the house of all valuables.

Besides all that, your claim that anything you read in Kunze MUST be fully implemented in ANY German brewery is utterly ridiculous. That's a University level text, covering the subject as broadly as possible since it is supposed to support an equally broad education. In Kunze you'll even find practices that are strictly "verboten" in Germany like the use of unmalted adjuncts or forced carbonation and much more. Would you like to claim that German breweries are implementing those illegal (at least for them) practices because The Book says so or would you rather just choose at will the parts that only suit your agenda and support your unrealistic claims? Shall I go on?

There is no translation to English of Die Bierbrauerei. There are translations for Back's and Kunze's.
The translation is my own, and it doesnt mean what you state. If you wish, one can elaborate that Narziss is stating:
"To achieve an oxygen-free mashing, the use of degassed water is absolutely necessary both for mashing as well as for sparging"
Narziss describes the problems caused by mash oxidation in Section 2.3.1.8

We can all agree in that there are breweries in Germany that for cost reasons and because are less concerned with flavor stability (because they don't package) don't do low oxygen brewing on the cold side. However, if your brewery bottles or keg, in general they do low-oxygen, mostly because cold storage is extremely rare in Germany, and it's proven that hot side aeration impacts flavor stability.

For us, it comes down to the beers we want to emulate, and the beers I love are low-oxygen.

Prosit

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

So on one side we have someone who was trained professionally in Munich (no, not at W)

Just for the record. I don't know if by that you mean me, but I was also trained at W (just not in beer brewing, that is )
Not that this fact will give me any more authority in this debate!

 

[Vale71]

You know as well as the next guy what which brewery in Germany is doing both hot and cold-side. Which is another way to say that you don't know.
Again, really not trying to be argumentative but I find this post confusing as well.
What doesn't mean what I state? Your translation or the original text?
Which breweries don't do low-oxygen cold-side? Or is it a typo and you meant hot-side? If it's not a typo, what does cold-side oxydation have to do with a discussion about hot-side oxydation?

We can all agree that hot-side oxydation causes quality issues and those have been rather extensively documented. Unfortunately they don't match up with what the Lodo crowd here is claiming but whatever... It's the jump from "hot-side oxydation can be an issue" to "all German breweries brewing good beer implement full O2 mitigation hot side" that's still completely unsubstantiated. I understand that is what you like to believe but that doesn't make it true by default...

EDIT: This is addressed to Lupulus, Taket unfortunately stepped in between his post and mine...

 

[Vale71]

Just for the record. I don't know if by that you mean me, but I was also trained at W (just not in beer brewing, that is )
Not that this fact will give me any more authority in this debate!

No, that was a reference (clearly too subtle ) to yours truly...

 

[Big Monk]

Sorry but you clearly have no data supporting your claims, no matter how often you might make claims to the contrary.

Holy cow. Work with me here man. I'm trying to be diplomatic for the sake of everyone tuning in. Exchanges between you and I often don't go well and I'm trying to be courteous.

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/deoxygenation-revisited/
That's a documented set of data. Since it comes from us you'll dismiss it out of hand, which is your right to do. We have a number of people from our forum operating systems with industrial in process DO and pH probes and transmitters. The brewday data shows DO in ppb from both methods of deoxygenation for water.

Take it for what it is or don't but let's ditch the adversarial stuff.

 

[Vale71]

Holy cow. Work with me here man. I'm trying to be diplomatic for the sake of everyone tuning in. Exchanges between you and I often don't go well and I'm trying to be courteous.

http://www.********************/brewing-methods/deoxygenation-revisited/
That's a documented set of data. Since it comes from us you'll dismiss it out of hand, which is your right to do. We have a number of people from our forum operating systems with industrial in process DO and pH probes and transmitters. The brewday data shows DO in ppb from both methods of deoxygenation for water.

Take it for what it is or don't but let's ditch the adversarial stuff.

Are you really not getting it or do you choose not to?

Several people (of which I may have been the most vocal) have already pointed out on numerous occasions that all your DO measurements and whatnot do not prove that your methods actually positively affect the quality of the product! All you have in lieu of "data" is your own taste tests which are completely worthless. Just to be clear, they are inherently worthless and not just because they're performed by you. To prove the effectiveness of your methods and the lack of serious side effects you'd need analytical capabilities that are well beyond your (the collective you) means. So, unless you have a full lab that includes a suitable HPLC column at your disposal and know what and how to measure all your data, while perhaps interesting to look at, is utterly inconclusive.

 

[Lupulus]

You guys keep giving The Book precedence over actual physical reality.

The books. Plural. ALL the books. Two of them made by Weihenstephan people.
And the Weihenstephan dissertations (eg Wurzbacher)...
And the articles in Brauwelt and Brewing Science...
For light-colored lagers, the science is settled.

AND we are forgetting about the most important factor.
Because of size (square-cube law), HSA will affect homebrew systems much more than it would affect systems that have x100 times the volume.

 

[Big Monk]

Are you really not getting it or do you choose not to?

Several people (of which I may have been the most vocal) have already pointed out on numerous occasions that all your DO measurements and whatnot do not prove that your methods actually positively affect the quality of the product! All you have in lieu of "data" is your own taste tests which are completely worthless. Just to be clear, they are inherently worthless and not just because they're performed by you. To prove the effectiveness of your methods and the lack of serious side effects you'd need analytical capabilities that are well beyond your (the collective you) means. So, unless you have a full lab that includes a suitable HPLC column at your disposal and know what and how to measure all your data, while perhaps interesting to look at, is utterly inconclusive.

Serious side effects?

 

[Jeff...]

Perhaps I'm a simpleton... But common sense tells me if your mash is oxidated then it will show up in the final product.

So ---> for me <--- I'm going to try LODO on both hot and cold sides, to the best of my abilities. Then I'll let my tastebuds determine the outcome. After all, if I'm happy with the beers I brew, then that's all that counts. Currently, I'm not all that happy, I know my beers could be better. Furthermore, I also know there is room for me to improve my brewing techniques.

 

[Big Monk]

Perhaps I'm a simpleton... But common sense tells me if your mash is oxidated then it will show up in the final product.

So ---> for me <--- I'm going to try LODO on both hot and cold sides, to the best of my abilities. Then I'll let my tastebuds determine the outcome. After all, if I'm happy with the beers I brew, then that's all that counts. Currently, I'm not all that happy, I know my beers could be better. Furthermore, I also know there is room for me to improve my brewing techniques.

Well said.

 

[Lupulus]

All you have in lieu of "data" is your own taste tests which are completely worthless.

There are many papers with the data you seek, but one the most complete in Mash Parameters and Flavor Stability is the one from Narziss (2000) in Brewing Science.
Lots and lots of data.
Or you think the big manufactures are creating all these million low-oxygen systems on no data...

 

[Die_Beerery]

There are many papers with the data you seek, but one the most complete in Mash Parameters and Flavor Stability is the one from Narziss (2000) in Brewing Science.
Lots and lots of data.
Or you think the big manufactures are creating all these million low-oxygen systems on no data...

Our resources page lists quite a few papers that are professional that me, (the simpleton) has not put out.

http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/
Maybe this study?

http://www.********************/wp-...avor-Stability-Translated-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf

Or this?

http://www.********************/wp-...e-flavor-stability-IBD-Ghana-March-320131.pdf
probably a bunch of fools, who know nothing anyways.

 

[Vale71]

AND we are forgetting about the most important factor.
Because of size (square-cube law), HSA will affect homebrew systems much more than it would affect systems that have x100 times the volume.

And this is the N-th time I have heard this piece of misinformation mentioned which, again, does not make it right.
The square cube law affects heat loss, it has nothing to do with hot side oxidation (or cold side, for that matter). Feel free to prove otherwise.

 

[Vale71]

Our resources page lists quite a few papers that are professional that me, (the simpleton) has not put out.

http://www.********************/uncategorized/list-of-brewing-references/
Maybe this study?

http://www.********************/wp-...avor-Stability-Translated-Wurzbacher-2011.pdf

Or this?

http://www.********************/wp-...e-flavor-stability-IBD-Ghana-March-320131.pdf
probably a bunch of fools, who know nothing anyways.

I really starting to feel like I'm just pointlessly banging my head against a wall with no results.

For the last time: quoting other people's works that have absolutely nothing to do with your own work and/or methods is absolutely worthless and proves absolutely nothing. YOU HAVE ZERO DIRECT PROOF THAT ANY OF YOUR METHODS POSITIVELY AFFECT BEER STABILITY OF HOMEBREWED BEER AND YOUR CLAIMS TO THE CONTRARY ARE UNSUBSTANTIATED AND THEREFORE FALSE UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. And that's absolutely the last time I'm repeating that, if you don't understand this simple fact then it must be because you don't want to understand as it does not fit your agenda and that in turn means I'm just wasting too much of my time...

 

[Vale71]

Serious side effects?

You're putting chemicals in your mash whose effects you don't really understand and certainly cannot directly measure, so anything's possible...

 

[Jeff...]

Well said.

Thanks Big Monk. I would like to encourage further discussion regarding LODO here in this thread. I'm learning a ton from all the replies.

Please continue to discuss pros/cons, research/evidence, etc... all I ask is, please keep it civil. (Note: I asked please twice). Being a newer member here, I would hate to have started a "rag war" thread.

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks Big Monk. I would like to encourage further discussion regarding LODO here in this thread. I'm learning a ton from all the replies.

Please continue to discuss pros/cons, research/evidence, etc... all I ask is, please keep it civil. (Note: I asked please twice). Being a newer member here, I would hate to have started a "rag war" thread.

No worries. Some are more vocal than others. I try not to let my frustration color my interactions but it can be difficult.

 

[Big Monk]

You're putting chemicals in your mash whose effects you don't really understand and certainly cannot directly measure, so anything's possible...

As far as your chemicals comment, I feel we understand, very fully indeed, the mechanism by which they scavenge oxygen and reduce pH in the mash. I don't think there is any evidence that there is something dangerous happening at all.

You are probably in more danger from handling brewing acid, lime, slipping and falling in the brewery, etc. then from micro dosing antioxidants.

 

[Jeff...]

Can anyone point me to a study on Star-San oxidizing effects? Maybe there is no consern, maybe there is - but I would be interested to find out.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Well gents, I'm going to have to put my studies on hold for a while. I have a house, a wood shop to pack and move, along with my sawmill and skidsteer, turkeys, chickens, dogs and the wife.

We are moving about 3 miles further past Bum F Egypt than we are now. Off of 14 acres and on to 20 acres. This will be my last move, now we can focus on permanency.

I hate moving and 14 acres is plenty. I do love Bum F Egypt, I grew up there. Now I'm spoiled living in the city with all the restaurants and brew pubs. It would be nice to be self-sufficient though. Happy moving and if it get rough have a Homebrew.

 

[Big Monk]

Can anyone point me to a study on Star-San oxidizing effects? Maybe there is no consern, maybe there is - but I would be interested to find out.

What do you mean? Oxidizing effects from what?

 

[Brewbuzzard]

You know guys I hang with a bunch of Germans and Austrians (we use to ride together until a truck pulled out in front of me). They are the most hard headed people and hold their cards close. One or both of you may be getting smoke blown up your aspergillus.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I really starting to feel like I'm just pointlessly banging my head against a wall with no results.

For the last time: quoting other people's works that have absolutely nothing to do with your own work and/or methods is absolutely worthless and proves absolutely nothing. YOU HAVE ZERO DIRECT PROOF THAT ANY OF YOUR METHODS POSITIVELY AFFECT BEER STABILITY OF HOMEBREWED BEER AND YOUR CLAIMS TO THE CONTRARY ARE UNSUBSTANTIATED AND THEREFORE FALSE UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. And that's absolutely the last time I'm repeating that, if you don't understand this simple fact then it must be because you don't want to understand as it does not fit your agenda and that in turn means I'm just wasting too much of my time...

Here's whats up my dude, #1 point is we don't need to e-shout. Being able to talk about this in a non-violent manner, is what it's gonna take. But we have to stop with the straw man arguments, it doesn't work. You can't have an actual discourse when things like the above are said (shouted). It would be like me saying to you. You vale71, have zero direct proof anything you say or do, refutes what I say or do. How do you counter that? You can't. You are left with an impasse, because straw man arguments will never work.


SO, I see your argument about claims, and thats completely fair! How do you validate claims in your everyday life? How does ones experiences play into claims? Are these( experiences) valid to you? How would you validate the claim of say walking a mile burns more calories, than jumping 13 times? Lastly, what would it take for you to take our claims serious?

Thanks.

 

[Lupulus]

Not trying to be argumentative here but yout last post really makes no sense to me??

Books are the way SOPs are written in science. In every science.

 

[Vale71]

Sorry if my tone bothered you but I do tend to loose my cool when I have to repeat myself for the N-th time only to have the same arguments brought up over and over again ad infinitum.

How would you validate the claim of say walking a mile burns more calories, than jumping 13 times? Lastly, what would it take for you to take our claims serious?

I would either publish a peer reviewed paper that proves my assertion or quote an already published paper that proves my assertion. I would not make the claim "Swimming for four minutes burns more calories than walking a mile" and then quote a paper that proves that jumping 13 times burns more calories than walking a mile and then argue that this proves my assertion too. Ok the simile is a bit forced but hopefully you get the gist.
So, do your homework and publish a complete result and then we might be in business. It does not have to be peer reviewed, just present conclusive results using proper methodology and that would be enough. Until then you have no conclusive proof but your own blind faith and I'm really not interested in that kind of thing.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Sorry if my tone bothered you but I do tend to loose my cool when I have to repeat myself for the N-th time only to have the same arguments brought up over and over again ad infinitum.


I would either publish a peer reviewed paper that proves my assertion or quote an already published paper that proves my assertion. I would not make the claim "Swimming for four minutes burns more calories than walking a mile" and then quote a paper that proves that jumping 13 times burns more calories than walking a mile and then argue that this proves my assertion too. Ok the simile is a bit forced but hopefully you get the gist.
So, do your homework and publish a complete result and then we might be in business. It does not have to be peer reviewed, just present conclusive results using proper methodology and that would be enough. Until then you have no conclusive proof but your own blind faith and I'm really not interested in that kind of thing.

Ok, fair enough. Can you answer this part?

How do you validate claims in your everyday life? How does ones experiences play into claims? Are these( experiences) valid to you?

For instance... lets say you try and push a cube shape though a circle hole, but it doesn't work. You then put it though a square hole and it goes though. Thats science as well, and I do not know if a peer reviewed paper needs be written to prove it.

 

[Jeff...]

What do you mean? Oxidizing effects from what?

Using Star-San

 

[Die_Beerery]

Using Star-San

I think where we are going with this is that starsan foams, and foam is bubbles of air. So using a lower foaming sanitizer would/should/could have less bubbles and less potential oxidation, when say purging a keg for a closed transfer.

 

[corax]

To prove the effectiveness of your methods and the lack of serious side effects you'd need analytical capabilities that are well beyond your (the collective you) means. So, unless you have a full lab that includes a suitable HPLC column at your disposal and know what and how to measure all your data, while perhaps interesting to look at, is utterly inconclusive.

Do you demand this stringent a level of supporting data for all techniques discussed among home brewers? How about the techniques you employ in your own brewing – do they really have hard QA data backing them up at the homebrewing level, or do you just take them for granted because they always seem to give satisfactory results?

 

[Jeff...]

I think where we are going with this is that starsan foams, and foam is bubbles of air. So using a lower foaming sanitizer would/should/could have less bubbles and less potential oxidation, when say purging a keg for a closed transfer.

Thank you ^^^ what he said ^^^

 

[Bilsch]

I really starting to feel like I'm just pointlessly banging my head against a wall with no results.

I totally agree with you on this point. Maybe it’s time to give your head a rest.

 

[Jeff...]

Would iodophor (IO-Star) be better than Star-San? Speaking to oxidizing beer, in a closed and purged transfer scenario?

I've been thinking of switching out sanitizers anyways.

IO-Star - low to no foaming.
Star-San - big bubbles no troubles.

 

[Bilsch]

And this is the N-th time I have heard this piece of misinformation mentioned which, again, does not make it right.
The square cube law affects heat loss, it has nothing to do with hot side oxidation (or cold side, for that matter). Feel free to prove otherwise.

Square cube law simply describes an objects volume in relation to its surface area. It has many applications beyond heat transfer. You need to read past the first paragraph on Wikipedia.

 

[Bilsch]

Would iodophor (IO-Star) be better than Star-San? Speaking to oxidizing beer, in a closed and purged transfer scenario?

I've been thinking of switching out sanitizers anyways.

IO-Star - low to no foaming.
Star-San - big bubbles no troubles.

No need to switch as they both have utility. Also it’s good to alternate sanitizers.

 

[Vale71]

Square cube law simply describes an objects volume in relation to its surface area. It has many applications beyond heat transfer. You need to read past the first paragraph on Wikipedia.

I already know the false argument you're going to bring to support your position and already know how to fully debunk it but please do humor me and enlighten me as to why you think the square cube law would mitigate hot side aeration in a brewhouse.