List of PJ Electrical Diagrams

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aboantopick,
Your layout looks good with three comments from me. 1 - the LED you show for the element won't actually show you when the element is on as it's upstream of the SSR. It just shows you if the switch is on or off. Suggest putting it downstream of the SSR, so you know whether the SSR is actually allowing power through to the element (verification that the SSR is working / the PID is actually sending power).
2 - I've personally never seen the advantage to the switch for the PID. In what scenario would you want to have your PID off - it doesn't draw a whole ton of power, and with the element disconnect switch upstream, you can turn off the element that way, so you're basically disabling the PID with that. No harm in keeping it, but it seems like a redundant switch.
3 - there's no main power on / off, so I assume you either have a switched outlet, or plan to do the plug in / unplug method? Just a verification comment if you've already worked it out.
-Kevin

Thanks for your input Kevin.
You are right about the switch and indicator lamp to the SSR. This would only show me if I am supplying power to the input side (1) of my SSR. I would be better off moving the switch and lamp between terminal (2) the output side of the SSR and the element outlet. I can see now that this would not only show me when the element had power to it but also show me if a signal was being competed from the SSR.
As for comment 2. switch to the PID. I just thought the PID wont be needed when using my BK pump 1. You are right, it wont draw much power.
Adding a main power switch and indicator lamp is probably a good idea. Yes, right now it is either plugged in to the GFCI outlet or not.
 
Thanks for your input Kevin.
You are right about the switch and indicator lamp to the SSR. This would only show me if I am supplying power to the input side (1) of my SSR. I would be better off moving the switch and lamp between terminal (2) the output side of the SSR and the element outlet. I can see now that this would not only show me when the element had power to it but also show me if a signal was being competed from the SSR.
As for comment 2. switch to the PID. I just thought the PID wont be needed when using my BK pump 1. You are right, it wont draw much power.
Adding a main power switch and indicator lamp is probably a good idea. Yes, right now it is either plugged in to the GFCI outlet or not.

Wire the element indicator light in parallel with the element, on the output side of the SSR. Note that for a 240v element, you would need a 240v indicator light (and 120v for 120v).
 
Wire the element indicator light in parallel with the element, on the output side of the SSR. Note that for a 240v element, you would need a 240v indicator light (and 120v for 120v).

You can use a 120v indicator on a 240v element if you have a neutral line to run to it. Just run it off of one leg (still in parallel for that leg).
 
You can use a 120v indicator on a 240v element if you have a neutral line to run to it. Just run it off of one leg (still in parallel for that leg).

I think that would be problematic. The hot 240v leg that does not go through the SSR would always be hot, so you cannot use that. The other hot 240v leg that goes through the SSR, because of SSR current leakage, might be enough to illuminate the light even if the SSR is in an open state.

That said, I have never tried it, but it is how I understand it.
 
I think that would be problematic. The hot 240v leg that does not go through the SSR would always be hot, so you cannot use that. The other hot 240v leg that goes through the SSR, because of SSR current leakage, might be enough to illuminate the light even if the SSR is in an open state.

That said, I have never tried it, but it is how I understand it.

Very well said. Thanks..

P-J
 
Very well said. Thanks..

P-J

So as I understand it using an SSR alone to power my element Even though I am using 120V I could get leakage causing unwanted power to my element and indicator lamp when in closed position. I guess the addition of a contactor coil would be a better design?

HAVE TAKEN A FEW RECOMMENDATIONS
Although adding a main power switch and keeping the $6 worth of hardware for a STOP button may seem redundant, it looks safer, and my wife likes it hahahaha.
Thank You all! Here is my updated plan.

CONTROL-PANEL-LAYOUT WIN.jpg
 
So as I understand it using an SSR alone to power my element Even though I am using 120V I could get leakage causing unwanted power to my element and indicator lamp when in closed position. I guess the addition of a contactor coil would be a better design?

HAVE TAKEN A FEW RECOMMENDATIONS
Although adding a main power switch and keeping the $6 worth of hardware for a STOP button may seem redundant, it looks safer, and my wife likes it hahahaha.
Thank You all! Here is my updated plan.

The contactor allows you to be certain that off means off, even if your SSR leaks some current. Wiring the indicator light in parallel with the element, and matching the voltage, is probably the most common approach for having the light illuminate when the element is on. Note that the light may illuminate from current leakage when the element is not plugged in. Plugging it in should provide enough resistance for the light to function as desired.
 
I think that would be problematic. The hot 240v leg that does not go through the SSR would always be hot, so you cannot use that. The other hot 240v leg that goes through the SSR, because of SSR current leakage, might be enough to illuminate the light even if the SSR is in an open state.

Yes it would (or could be - fix is to buy SSRs with no or high impedance snubber impedance) but there is another simple solution. Determine the current draw of the 110V led. Lets say it is 10 ma (0.01 amp). The device then consists of a led in series with a 110/.01 = 11000 Ω resistor. Put another 11000 Ω resistor in series with one of the leads and connect the combination across the load. When the load is present most of the leakage will flow through it. When the device switches then you have 220V across 22000 Ω and the current is 10 ma - just what you had at 110.
 
You guys are all talking 240v - he's running a 120v panel.

The way it's drawn up now will work fine with the element plugged in. You don't need a contactor so long as your switch between the SSR and the element is rated to handle the amperage, same as your switch going into the panel. Power switch and e-stop are not redundant IMO - one is a regular switch, one is an emergency switch - it's poor form to use the same switch for both functions in practice.
-Kevin
 
You guys are all talking 240v - he's running a 120v panel.

The way it's drawn up now will work fine with the element plugged in. You don't need a contactor so long as your switch between the SSR and the element is rated to handle the amperage, same as your switch going into the panel. Power switch and e-stop are not redundant IMO - one is a regular switch, one is an emergency switch - it's poor form to use the same switch for both functions in practice.
-Kevin

Do you have an emergency switch on all your other 120V appliances? Electric Turkey Fryer, Coffee maker, shop vac (that does water), compressor, vacuum, drill press and table saw, are but a few examples. Does the Blichman tower of power, or the Braumeister have an emergency switch?

Point is, it's not needed, and, as another thread brought up, connecting the hot to ground in order to cause a GFCI to trip is not the way an emergency switch is implemented in industrial designs where you actually need such a thing.
 
Here is a diagram that I just finished for you as I did not have one that really fit your description. I hope it matches your needs.

And as always - click on the image to see (and save) a full scale diagram printable on Tabloid paper (11" x 17")



I hope this helps you in your adventure.

P-J


Thank you P-J, this is what I was hoping to find. I hope to find you pulled through your health issues.
 
Do you have an emergency switch on all your other 120V appliances? Electric Turkey Fryer, Coffee maker, shop vac (that does water), compressor, vacuum, drill press and table saw, are but a few examples. Does the Blichman tower of power, or the Braumeister have an emergency switch?

Point is, it's not needed, and, as another thread brought up, connecting the hot to ground in order to cause a GFCI to trip is not the way an emergency switch is implemented in industrial designs where you actually need such a thing.

Was my turkey fryer, coffee makers, shop vac, compressor, vacuum, drill press, or table saw assembled by a knuckle head in his kitchen with some parts he ordered off the internet and had a QC regiment of "yup, looks good to me and the internet"? Did my brew setup make it through Underwriters Laboratories or Factory Mutual for rigorous testing and certification? Is there an R&D team of PhDs and Engineers designing my system?

I'm sure in industrial settings the E-Stop does not do the same thing we do - in fact, I'm pretty confident they use a shunt-trip breaker. Those aren't cheap or easy to install, and when you have a GFCI breaker already installed it's a quick and easy way to implement. The short-to-ground method of shunting the GFCI is the exact way it's done within the GFCI itself when you push the test button (see here) so it's not some huge fire risk. Personally, I've found it very helpful to have when the pump gets air in it and I'm across the room and don't want to figure out which of the 2 running pumps it is. Or when the kettle starts to boil over and I want to kill the power to the element.

But, thanks for comparing the pieced together systems we all build to professional systems. You do what you want, I'll do what I want. :tank::rolleyes:
 
Personally, I've found it very helpful to have when the pump gets air in it and I'm across the room and don't want to figure out which of the 2 running pumps it is. Or when the kettle starts to boil over and I want to kill the power to the element.

But in those examples you presented a main power switch would accomplish the same thing, correct?

What would y'all say are the main advantages of tripping the GFCI vs just a power switch? I suppose if said GFCI was at the breaker box or the first outlet out of the breaker box then it would have the advantage of killing to power in the whole circuit in case the problem isn't plugged into your panel, but why wouldn't it be plugged into your panel? And that's given that the GFCI is the first thing on the circuit and not an inline gfci adapter or something.

(Legit questions, I'm not trying to stir the pot or arguing for any side here. Just a newby trying to get my head around it all)
 
Was my turkey fryer, coffee makers, shop vac, compressor, vacuum, drill press, or table saw assembled by a knuckle head in his kitchen with some parts he ordered off the internet and had a QC regiment of "yup, looks good to me and the internet"? Did my brew setup make it through Underwriters Laboratories or Factory Mutual for rigorous testing and certification? Is there an R&D team of PhDs and Engineers designing my system?

I'm sure in industrial settings the E-Stop does not do the same thing we do - in fact, I'm pretty confident they use a shunt-trip breaker. Those aren't cheap or easy to install, and when you have a GFCI breaker already installed it's a quick and easy way to implement. The short-to-ground method of shunting the GFCI is the exact way it's done within the GFCI itself when you push the test button (see here) so it's not some huge fire risk.

Being an electronics engineer who designed electronic equipment that had had to get approvals for installation in areas with explosive gases as well as wiring up several residential houses, I'm well aware how a GFCI works.

My problem was you stating a power switch and a stop switch have two entirely separate purposes. They both to turn off power easily. A switch rated for the current and voltage (cheap for 120V systems) does that just fine. I have no inherent problems with someone using a emergency switch(although not certain about approvals), but I am not incorrect in saying it's not necessary. Sorry you are getting in a huff about it. It was not my intention to put down your design.
 
To my thinking, if the emergency stop switch is located within easy reach while the power switch is not, they may not be redundant. If they are both located on the face of the same panel, the emergency stop is redundant bling and a possible source of confusion to someone not familiar with the specific system. It hurts nothing and helps as much as it hurts.
 
I was looking for a drawing similar to Kal's electric brewery but I couldn't find one. A couple were close, so I took 3 different PT drawings and mashed them together.
I was going to include an alarm switch in the mash PID, but did'nt have room. I'm pretty sure it's correct, but this is where I add legal ease fine print.

Edit: I updated drawing to include four alarm switches

Electric Brewery Schematic.jpg
 
Being an electronics engineer who designed electronic equipment that had had to get approvals for installation in areas with explosive gases as well as wiring up several residential houses, I'm well aware how a GFCI works.

My problem was you stating a power switch and a stop switch have two entirely separate purposes. They both to turn off power easily. A switch rated for the current and voltage (cheap for 120V systems) does that just fine. I have no inherent problems with someone using a emergency switch(although not certain about approvals), but I am not incorrect in saying it's not necessary. Sorry you are getting in a huff about it. It was not my intention to put down your design.

Wouldn't it make sense to use the e-stop to cut power to the power on contactor.
 
I was looking for a drawing similar to Kal's electric brewery but I couldn't find one. A couple were close, so I took 3 different PT drawings and mashed them together.
I was going to include an alarm switch in the mash PID, but did'nt have room. I'm pretty sure it's correct, but this is where I add legal ease fine print.

Edit: I updated drawing to include four alarm switches

So this isn't actually a P-J drawing? Probably should take out the bottom part with his name on it if you're going to mod it.
 
So this isn't actually a P-J drawing? Probably should take out the bottom part with his name on it if you're going to mod it.

OK good point, I guess I should to avoid any confusion, and PT can add it back if he likes. About 90% of it is. I didn't change it much. I swapped out timers and added a pid and a switch. That's about it.

Edit: new drawing attached in previous post.
 
But in those examples you presented a main power switch would accomplish the same thing, correct?

What would y'all say are the main advantages of tripping the GFCI vs just a power switch? I suppose if said GFCI was at the breaker box or the first outlet out of the breaker box then it would have the advantage of killing to power in the whole circuit in case the problem isn't plugged into your panel, but why wouldn't it be plugged into your panel? And that's given that the GFCI is the first thing on the circuit and not an inline gfci adapter or something.

(Legit questions, I'm not trying to stir the pot or arguing for any side here. Just a newby trying to get my head around it all)

Valid question. My reasons - 1: I have a keyed power switch, and it's easier to mash a big mushroom button than it is to turn a keyed power switch. 2 - Tripping the GFCI kills power to the entire panel. Killing the power switch just kills power downstream of the main contactor, so your panel is still live. In the event of something catastrophic happening, I felt that the ability to kill all power to the entire panel was the right decision. 3 - I'm of the mindset that normal use functions and emergency use functions should be separate - maybe not required, but from an operational stand point I like to keep the two separate in the different facets of my job and life, so it follwed through to my panel.

-Kevin
 
Being an electronics engineer who designed electronic equipment that had had to get approvals for installation in areas with explosive gases as well as wiring up several residential houses, I'm well aware how a GFCI works.

My problem was you stating a power switch and a stop switch have two entirely separate purposes. They both to turn off power easily. A switch rated for the current and voltage (cheap for 120V systems) does that just fine. I have no inherent problems with someone using a emergency switch(although not certain about approvals), but I am not incorrect in saying it's not necessary. Sorry you are getting in a huff about it. It was not my intention to put down your design.

No huff here - just get frustrated when people try to compare our cobbled together systems with industrial, mass produced systems. The argument comes up time and again, and I honestly think it's a mistake to try and draw comparisons.

My only argument to having both, as mentioned in the post just above this, is the ease or complexity of the two switches (keyed vs mushroom) and the desire to keep the two functions (normal vs emergency) separated. Lastly, the ability to kill power well upstream of the panel is a definie plus, as is done in most of the industrial applications I've seen - the power is shunted outside of the work area, not in the middle of it. All of those reasons combined provide enough justification for me to think it's an important part of a design. As you state - it's not necessary, but very little of what we actually put into these panels is truly necessary at the most basic of levels.

-Kevin
 
No huff here - just get frustrated when people try to compare our cobbled together systems with industrial, mass produced systems. The argument comes up time and again, and I honestly think it's a mistake to try and draw comparisons.

<off topic>
This (and cost) is what has kept me from building a full blown electric system. My chief "advisor" is an ECE (electrical and computer engineer) who works in medical product development. When i start talking about non industrial parts (watlow or nothing!) he gets very, very nervous. Nothing like a 6'4 250 lb dutchman giving you a lecture on safety! It's not that what we're doing is unsafe (assuming we're following safety precautions). It's just that we're not putting backups in for the backups to the backups because we're not building products meant for unsupervised duty 24x7.
</off topic>

Related to this, I purchased both a keyed estop and a regular mushroom control button to run my "breaker box" - it splits a 30A dryer line to a 20a 240v and a 20a/120v circuit (max duty on total appliances attached is < 30 A). Do i need to install contactors to use those mushroom buttons (one of which I plan on using as the PJ trickle estop that trips my spa panel)? Neither is rated for 240v 30a direct connection as far as i can tell.
 
<off topic>
This (and cost) is what has kept me from building a full blown electric system. My chief "advisor" is an ECE (electrical and computer engineer) who works in medical product development. When i start talking about non industrial parts (watlow or nothing!) he gets very, very nervous. Nothing like a 6'4 250 lb dutchman giving you a lecture on safety! It's not that what we're doing is unsafe (assuming we're following safety precautions). It's just that we're not putting backups in for the backups to the backups because we're not building products meant for unsupervised duty 24x7.
</off topic>

Related to this, I purchased both a keyed estop and a regular mushroom control button to run my "breaker box" - it splits a 30A dryer line to a 20a 240v and a 20a/120v circuit (max duty on total appliances attached is < 30 A). Do i need to install contactors to use those mushroom buttons (one of which I plan on using as the PJ trickle estop that trips my spa panel)? Neither is rated for 240v 30a direct connection as far as i can tell.

Follow P-J's wiring diagram if you want your e-stop to leak a small amount of current to trip the GFCI. If you want to use the other switch to control the main power to the panel, and it is not rated for 30a, then yes you would use a contactor, just like Kal's design at http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/.
 
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Do i need to install contactors to use those mushroom buttons (one of which I plan on using as the PJ trickle estop that trips my spa panel)? Neither is rated for 240v 30a direct connection as far as i can tell.

If your switch(es) are rated to handle the amperage you plan to run through the, you're good. If not, you need to use a contactor (or get higher rated switches).

-Kevin
 
<off topic>
This (and cost) is what has kept me from building a full blown electric system. My chief "advisor" is an ECE (electrical and computer engineer) who works in medical product development. When i start talking about non industrial parts (watlow or nothing!) he gets very, very nervous. Nothing like a 6'4 250 lb dutchman giving you a lecture on safety! It's not that what we're doing is unsafe (assuming we're following safety precautions). It's just that we're not putting backups in for the backups to the backups because we're not building products meant for unsupervised duty 24x7.
</off topic>

Related to this, I purchased both a keyed estop and a regular mushroom control button to run my "breaker box" - it splits a 30A dryer line to a 20a 240v and a 20a/120v circuit (max duty on total appliances attached is < 30 A). Do i need to install contactors to use those mushroom buttons (one of which I plan on using as the PJ trickle estop that trips my spa panel)? Neither is rated for 240v 30a direct connection as far as i can tell.

Contactors are almost used on 240 V systems for two reasons:
1. Amperage is almost always 30+ amps; more than 30 amps at 240V is a big jump in switch cost, size, and availability.
2. 240 volts at 30 plus amps is getting up there in terms of how much spark potential there is when making a switch connection. It's much better to have this moved off to a relay(contactor) than on a switch on a front panel.
 
My only argument to having both, as mentioned in the post just above this, is the ease or complexity of the two switches (keyed vs mushroom) and the desire to keep the two functions (normal vs emergency) separated.
-Kevin

I totally agree if you are using a keyed switch for power or some other non-easy to trip switch. I was replying to a question from someone building a 120V system, which can be reasonably done with a single double pole, single throw power switch.
 
I have been all grain brewing on a propane burner setup for a while and found most answers by google searches. However, I feel like I need some help with this. I am looking to go electric. I have assembled most of my parts and I am going to use a wiring diagram that is similar to the diagram on page 1 of this thread titled "30A 5500 Single Element PID." I am not sure what gauge of wire I should use for internal wiring of the control box. I am not sure if there is a link to that somewhere on this site. If there is, would someone be able to point me in the correct direction. If not, would someone be able to shed some light on this for me? Looking forward to the build and checking out the ton of info here.
 
I have been all grain brewing on a propane burner setup for a while and found most answers by google searches. However, I feel like I need some help with this. I am looking to go electric. I have assembled most of my parts and I am going to use a wiring diagram that is similar to the diagram on page 1 of this thread titled "30A 5500 Single Element PID." I am not sure what gauge of wire I should use for internal wiring of the control box. I am not sure if there is a link to that somewhere on this site. If there is, would someone be able to point me in the correct direction. If not, would someone be able to shed some light on this for me? Looking forward to the build and checking out the ton of info here.

Check out the primer here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/electrical-primer-brewers-145019/. It tells you what wire size you need based on how much current will go thru the wire. You should be able to tell how much current will flow thru each wire, by looking at the load connected to it. You will need the specs for all the powered items for this. If you don't know how to trace current flow thru a schematic, you need to get help from someone, or educate yourself until you can do it yourself.

Brew on :mug:
 
PJ your diagrams are a great resource. Thanks for all your hard work.

If anybody could weigh in and help me out with my wiring schematic, I'd be thankful. I'm no electrician.

253763d1422987214-automation-start-build-wiring-diagram.jpeg
 
These drawings are amazing and are making what I thought would be impossible "possible". I am doing BIAB in one vessel. This is a 15 gallon bk. I want to do a RIMS setup with recirculation and then also have an element in the same vessel to boil.

I'm not sure if this is right but I saw another drawing in one of the threads showing a setup with RIMS and Boil. Drawing #Auberin-wiring1-a13-SYL-2352-4500w-RIMS . Can anyone tell me if this would work in the application I describe?

Again...

1. Want to recirculate in the kettle using a RIMS while doing a BIAB mash.
2. Want to put a boil element in the same kettle.
3. Not sure I'll need 2 pumps like the drawing shows as primarily this will be used for recirc, just not sure with a single vessel brew why I would need 2 pumps.

I am thinking this is what I'd want for my application but was hoping someone might confirm that. This P-J fella is amazing, I was shocked as over and over again through all of these threads he gives and gives and gives. Very selfless. And yes, I read all 634 posts even though it took me since last night.

Thanks!

RP
 
These drawings are amazing and are making what I thought would be impossible "possible". I am doing BIAB in one vessel. This is a 15 gallon bk. I want to do a RIMS setup with recirculation and then also have an element in the same vessel to boil.

I'm not sure if this is right but I saw another drawing in one of the threads showing a setup with RIMS and Boil. Drawing #Auberin-wiring1-a13-SYL-2352-4500w-RIMS . Can anyone tell me if this would work in the application I describe?

Again...

1. Want to recirculate in the kettle using a RIMS while doing a BIAB mash.
2. Want to put a boil element in the same kettle.
3. Not sure I'll need 2 pumps like the drawing shows as primarily this will be used for recirc, just not sure with a single vessel brew why I would need 2 pumps.

I am thinking this is what I'd want for my application but was hoping someone might confirm that. This P-J fella is amazing, I was shocked as over and over again through all of these threads he gives and gives and gives. Very selfless. And yes, I read all 634 posts even though it took me since last night.

Thanks!

RP
BigDog007,

In my most humble opnion you will be good to go with that wiring plan. I would set it up for the 2 pumps as the cost in the design and setup in minimal at that time. Just don't get the second pump until you see that you need it. (The outlet & switch are cheap. With the outlet in place you are set.) The initial wiring is not expensive and if done in the beginnng it will save you a lot of grief down the road if your plan changes. (Just saying...)

Wishing you the best & Please let us know how it works out for you.

P-J
 
BigDog007,

In my most humble opnion you will be good to go with that wiring plan. I would set it up for the 2 pumps as the cost in the design and setup in minimal at that time. Just don't get the second pump until you see that you need it. (The outlet & switch are cheap. With the outlet in place you are set.) The initial wiring is not expensive and if done in the beginnng it will save you a lot of grief down the road if your plan changes. (Just saying...)

Wishing you the best & Please let us know how it works out for you.

P-J

Thank you P-J!

I am going to try and build it myself but have one of my electricians at the plant I work for look it over to make sure I'm using all of the right parts.

I've worked in food manufacturing for a while and I've seen a lot of these items used but have never done so myself. Trying to spec. out a parts list now so I can determine cost and get started.

I'm hoping I can purchase the right items first...

Thanks again!

RP
 
can someone assist with this?
trying to find this exact switch (SW1 in the diagram)
i went onto graingers website but i can only really find a 4 position DPST switch, not the one listed with 6 connectors.
Auberin-wiring1-a4-4500w-BIAB-30d.jpg
 
can someone assist with this?
trying to find this exact switch (SW1 in the diagram)
i went onto graingers website but i can only really find a 4 position DPST switch, not the one listed with 6 connectors.

The switch is a double pole single throw unit. The illustration is one I had handy at the time I drew the diagram. If you check out the switch wiring it is only using one set of primary contacts.

Hope this makes sense.

BTW the switch is this one http://www.grainger.com/product/NKK-Toggle-Switch-2TPF6

P-J
 
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