liquid yeast Q's

[TheCollector]

First 2 batches with liquid yeast and got a couple questions...
First off UPS really dropped the ball on this one.... I ordered from AHS and live in TN. UPS sent my package to Memphis, then BACK to TX then to Arkansas then BACK to Memphis! Then to my town! I didn't buy the cold packs since it's December but I'm worried at some point in all that transit my yeast may of gotten too warm or even froze... I plan to make my first starters with these 2 batches. Will my yeast be ok?

 

[Philistine]

You'll be fine. Its unlikely the yeast froze or got too warm. Even being December its not that cold in transit where I'd worry about it.

 

[kh54s10]

I wouldn't be too worried about too hot, but if they froze they could be toast. If you wanted to check without using a full starters amount of DME you could do a small starter and see if it ferments then if it is good make a proper sized one.

 

[Cyclman]

Do a starter, it's probable fine.

 

[TheCollector]

Next questions... I bought a 1000 ml flask for my starters. Is that big enough for 5 gallon batches? What is the proper water to DME ratio for a1000 ml. Flask?

THANKS to all for your answers

 

[IL1kebeer]

Next questions... I bought a 1000 ml flask for my starters. Is that big enough for 5 gallon batches? What is the proper water to DME ratio for a1000 ml. Flask? THANKS to all for your answers

No. It'll be hard to make a healthy starter with such a small amount of wort. Plus you won't be able to grow up enough yeast for any high gravity beers.

 

[Culbetron]

Here's Jamil's article on starters:
http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

Also you can use his pitching tool on the same site to determine what size starter you will need depending on your batch.

 

[ElCid79]

I disagree with these guys saying a 1000ml starter is just too small and wont work. It should work just fine.

Will it be 100% ideal. NO. When I first started homebrewing I would just toss the vile into my wort without making a starter. In fact I have made a TON of batches just like that. And every single one turned out great. Again, making a big starter is definitely the best way to go. But it should "work" even with just 1000ml flask.

I have used a 1000ml flask to make a 11.4% beer. Worked just fine.

Weighing is the best way to get consistent results. But here is a decent instructions set that is based off of volume if you don't have a scale yet. http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/YeastStarter.pdf


If we want to get technical, using Mr. Maltys calculations an ideal starter for a 1.048 wart pitched at 5.25 gallons gives us an IDEAL target of 180billion cells.

If we convert that down to 5 gallons that is an IDEAL target of 163billion cells.

So what exactly does that mean.

Wyeast states that after 12-18 hours a 1000ml starter, with one of their smackpacks will generate 150billion cells.

Thats about 90% of our IDEAL target. Pretty darn close.

Now assuming you can only use 750ml without it bubbling over, that would mean that you would still get about 112billion cells. Which works out to about 70% of absolutely IDEAL conditions.

Now keep further in mind, that when people are sanitizing things, they are hoping to kill off all non desireable yeast cells. It only takes a few to sneak by and mess up the whole batch is the logic.... So if a handful of bad cells, that float down out of the air, or remain attached to a spoon, can propagate to the level that drastically alters a beer, do you honestly think that being a few billion cells short will have a drastic affect on the beer?

Now I will say, that it is logical that if you introduce a higher number of yeast cells, they will finish reproducing quicker, and then begin rapidly consuming the sugars. This will make it much harder for any bad yeast to set up shop.


Feel free to blast this apart, as this is just my opinion, and I would love to hear what y'all think.

 

[IL1kebeer]

I disagree with these guys saying a 1000ml starter is just too small and wont work. It should work just fine. Will it be 100% ideal. NO. When I first started homebrewing I would just toss the vile into my wort without making a starter. In fact I have made a TON of batches just like that. Again, Making a big starter is definatly the best way to go. But it should "work" even at just a 1000ml.

True. It will work. However, I tend to give advice based on ideal practices. That's just how I am. I try to give the best advice possible and let the brewer decide whether or not he wants to use it.

Also, pick up the book "Yeast" to find out why small starters are not ideal in yeast propagation. At the end of it all, a starter will almost always be beneficial, but inoculation rates make a difference and I wanted to make the OP aware of that.

 

[ElCid79]

I agree 100%. Just wanted to explain the other side of it to him. Bigger is better. (To a degree anyways.)

 

[RonPopeil]

1L starters are good for most beers. the problem with this question is that there's no solid answer. it depends on the beer you're making, the yeast you're using and even what time of year you brew if you can't control your temps well.

for the most part a 1L starter will handle your needs fine. if you want to do high ABV beers the 2L (2000ml) will save you a few days time. most people agree 2000ml starters are ideal and in your situation it's possible. you'd have to do your first starter and let it run through. pour off the beer on top of the yeast and add another 1000ml of starter wort. some people will tell you to do a stepped starter anyway for high gravity beers and to do the second starter at a higher OG. this will get the bugs ready for the gravity you're tossing them into. when i do these types of starters i do the first round at 1.030-1.040 then do the next one in the 1.050-1.060 range.

 

[RM-MN]

While this doesn't really answer your question I found it to be quite interesting. Note that the over-pitch was about 5 times the recommended amount of yeast while the under-pitched batch only got about 1/8th the recommended. http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

 

[IL1kebeer]

1L starters are good for most beers. the problem with this question is that there's no solid answer. it depends on the beer you're making, the yeast you're using and even what time of year you brew if you can't control your temps well. for the most part a 1L starter will handle your needs fine. if you want to do high ABV beers the 2L (2000ml) will save you a few days time. most people agree 2000ml starters are ideal and in your situation it's possible. you'd have to do your first starter and let it run through. pour off the beer on top of the yeast and add another 1000ml of starter wort. some people will tell you to do a stepped starter anyway for high gravity beers and to do the second starter at a higher OG. this will get the bugs ready for the gravity you're tossing them into. when i do these types of starters i do the first round at 1.030-1.040 then do the next one in the 1.050-1.060 range.

1L starters are absolutely fine. The problem is that a full 1L starter is difficult to do in a 1L flask.

 

[BigFloyd]

1L starters are absolutely fine. The problem is that a full 1L starter is difficult to do in a 1L flask.

That's a very practical consideration. If you plan to swirl it every so often, about 0.8L is all you'd want to put in a 1L flask. You'll eventually want to bump up to a 2L flask.

For determining proper cell count, I've moved away from exclusively using Mr. Malty in favor of this calculator - http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

If you use a stir plate, that changes the game (greatly in your favor) as far as starter size is concerned. It enables you to get the same cell count with a much smaller starter vs. simple or swirled starter.

There's are lots of DIY stir plate threads on HBT. Mine, like most others, is based on a 12V computer fan (mounted inside a box) with a piece of PVC glued to the fan hub and topped with two rare earth magnets. Power the fan with a 12V wall charger. I vary the speed on mine via a little DC step-down module you can pick up on eBay for a couple bucks. Works great.

 

[jonmohno]

1L starters are absolutely fine. The problem is that a full 1L starter is difficult to do in a 1L flask.

Isnt that why you would just step start if needed be? If you do it twice then its like a 2L step start then, isnt it? Also those vials say for 5 gallon batches to begin with and alot people pitch them direct assuming a average moderate gravity like 1.05 or below. I would think just making a 1 l starter for a 5 gallon batch be a good amount of yeast up to like around 1.07 0G especially when using a stir plate. Also depending on the yeast vials age. I personally am one to make a starter with all liquid yeast unless making pretty small batches with average OG, just because you dont know exactly how viable the yeast is even if you know the age of it but dont know how well it was stored.

 

[BigJack]

While this doesn't really answer your question I found it to be quite interesting. Note that the over-pitch was about 5 times the recommended amount of yeast while the under-pitched batch only got about 1/8th the recommended. http://sciencebrewer.com/2012/03/02/pitching-rate-experiment-part-deux-results/

I found the summation of the article really helpful:

I think Garrett Oliver’s advice makes perfect sense and is something to keep in mind when playing around with different pitching rates. If you want a beer with very healthy cells, slightly higher attenuation, then under-pitching the beer to some degree might be applicable. However, expect to get more esters which is something that has to be optimized. I think over-pitching a beer has its place too. If one wanted to brew a very clean, thin beer and achieve maximal attenuation, then over-pitching may be the way to go. However, don’t expect to use the yeast for successive generations. It is important to note that despite the drastic differences in pitching rates, all the samples were not bad beers, and the yeast class students thought so too. Hopefully, this post gives one more weapon in the arsenal to brew great beer, it has for me.

In my case, as someone who enjoys esters in my British Ales and both esters and phenols in my Belgian beers, underpitching is actually a good idea.

Conversely, the next time I want a really clean beer for my BMC-swilling buddies, I plan to overpitch that sucker.

 

[IL1kebeer]

Isnt that why you would just step start if needed be? If you do it twice then its like a 2L step start then, isnt it? Also those vials say for 5 gallon batches to begin with and alot people pitch them direct assuming a average moderate gravity like 1.05 or below. I would think just making a 1 l starter for a 5 gallon batch be a good amount of yeast up to like around 1.07 0G especially when using a stir plate. Also depending on the yeast vials age. I personally am one to make a starter with all liquid yeast unless making pretty small batches with average OG, just because you dont know exactly how viable the yeast is even if you know the age of it but dont know how well it was stored.

Again, does anyone here understand how inoculation rates affect starters? If not then people shouldn't be giving advice stating that less than 1L starters are just fine and dandy. I also said that less than 1L starters will definitely work and they are better than no starter, but the results won't be nearly as good as a properly inoculated starter. That is a fact. Do some research. The OP needs to understand that a bigger flask will give him ideal results because it allows the inoculation rate to be in range for a 5 gallon batch.

A lot of this is also affected by the freshness and viability of the yeast, which is really out of most people's control if they are buying from a HBS. 50 billion cells in a .75L starter is really good, but how many cells will you have at the end? Not enough for a decent sized beer (if that's what you are in to). Also, let's say next week if the vial that you pick up is fresher and has 90 billion cells, then that 1L flask will be limiting because your inoculation rate will be too high. Both of these vials will be fine in a 2L flask.

It's up to the OP whether or not to follow this advice. It's not the end of the world either way, but it makes a difference in propagation.

Furthermore, stepping up starters is fine but it's extra work for a result that can be achieved for a slightly higher expense. Get a bigger flask and save some time as they aren't that much more expensive.

 

[RonPopeil]

Again, does anyone here understand how inoculation rates affect starters? If not then people shouldn't be giving advice stating that less than 1L starters are just fine and dandy. I also said that less than 1L starters will definitely work and they are better than no starter, but the results won't be nearly as good as a properly inoculated starter. That is a fact. Do some research. The OP needs to understand that a bigger flask will give him ideal results because it allows the inoculation rate to be in range for a 5 gallon batch.

A lot of this is also affected by the freshness and viability of the yeast, which is really out of most people's control if they are buying from a HBS. 50 billion cells in a .75L starter is really good, but how many cells will you have at the end? Not enough for a decent sized beer (if that's what you are in to). Also, let's say next week if the vial that you pick up is fresher and has 90 billion cells, then that 1L flask will be limiting because your inoculation rate will be too high. Both of these vials will be fine in a 2L flask.

It's up to the OP whether or not to follow this advice. It's not the end of the world either way, but it makes a difference in propagation.

Furthermore, stepping up starters is fine but it's extra work for a result that can be achieved for a slightly higher expense. Get a bigger flask and save some time as they aren't that much more expensive.

i always do starters with my liquid yeasts. mostly it's for yeast farming. every vial i buy gets developed out into a 4L (2+2) starter that i break down into pints. after i brew the batch i wash what i can get from the bottom and save that in a gatorade jug or large spaghetti sauce jar. that becomes my next brewing culture that i use to start my brews. after 3-4 batches i stop that family line and use another pint as my brewing culture, making the starter and breaking off what i need for a batch and bottling the rest.

I've been using wlp007 for about a year now and my oldest culture is only on its second iteration. the pints are enough to dry out a 1.070 brew themselves or can be used to farm a few more generations. i run a 2L starter at 1.040 when i use one of the pints just to get some cells back after having them sit in the fridge. i use a good amount of DME this way but i always have good yeast and DME is cheaper than yeast by far.

 

[jonmohno]

Again, does anyone here understand how inoculation rates affect starters? If not then people shouldn't be giving advice stating that less than 1L starters are just fine and dandy. I also said that less than 1L starters will definitely work and they are better than no starter, but the results won't be nearly as good as a properly inoculated starter. That is a fact. Do some research. The OP needs to understand that a bigger flask will give him ideal results because it allows the inoculation rate to be in range for a 5 gallon batch.

A lot of this is also affected by the freshness and viability of the yeast, which is really out of most people's control if they are buying from a HBS. 50 billion cells in a .75L starter is really good, but how many cells will you have at the end? Not enough for a decent sized beer (if that's what you are in to). Also, let's say next week if the vial that you pick up is fresher and has 90 billion cells, then that 1L flask will be limiting because your inoculation rate will be too high. Both of these vials will be fine in a 2L flask.

It's up to the OP whether or not to follow this advice. It's not the end of the world either way, but it makes a difference in propagation.

Furthermore, stepping up starters is fine but it's extra work for a result that can be achieved for a slightly higher expense. Get a bigger flask and save some time as they aren't that much more expensive.

I think you should brew up a 5 gallon batch. One with 1l starter and the other with a 2l starter in a beer with around a 1.06 gravity and see if you really believe yourself of really seing the difference between the two. I believe larger is better but I disagree if you really see that much of a noticable difference in a blind taste between the two. However its still good to make more of a starter if one has the means to do so.

This is kinda the thing : say your brew a lL starter but its a fully viable vial of yeast for one beer, while the other vial is 1/2 or even less like 1/8 viability made into a 2l starter. Now where really is the line between the two. There is no way of exactly knowing without expensive equipment how viable the yeast really is. Its only an insurance thing. That said this is where I say a 1 liter is perfectly acceptable compared to a 2l in a 5 gallon batch of beer. Higher gravity? Shure the 2 liter is better but some would say even that even 2L is not acceptable. Ive done plenty of research and do know the " the more yeast the better" thing.
Also I think if some one is pitching one vial or making a 1L starter and finds that they love their beer and think its fine and dandy as you say -then how is that wrong? And where does the "fact" belong in that?

Also I dont believe there is real "fact" when it comes to saying one beer is better than the other. People love miller /bud light and think IPA's are terrible and the majority of the world probably thinks so as well.

 

[Begin2Brew]

First 2 batches with liquid yeast and got a couple questions...
First off UPS really dropped the ball on this one.... I ordered from AHS and live in TN. UPS sent my package to Memphis, then BACK to TX then to Arkansas then BACK to Memphis! Then to my town! I didn't buy the cold packs since it's December but I'm worried at some point in all that transit my yeast may of gotten too warm or even froze... I plan to make my first starters with these 2 batches. Will my yeast be ok?

This thread seems to have gotten off track. First off good call on even making a starter! Chances are your yeast will be OK, they're resilient little minions! I have personally brew several batches in my beginnings and only pitched the smack pack, you're ahead of the curve. In your case I say brew on!

Now in the future consider letting the yeast dictate when brew day is. What I mean is if you want to brew on a specific date make sure your yeast are ready as well, prepare in advance. There is nothing wrong with keeping a starter in the fridge for a few days, I've held them in waiting for two weeks and still have over 95% viability.

 

[jonmohno]

You also dont need a 1L flask to do starters unless you have a stirplate, and maybe even then you can use something bigger. I dont have a stirplate but I have used something like a growlette for a starter for a 2.5 gallon batch. Also I would do a step starter with your yeast if you are unshure of its viability, if you have the time and means to do so.

 

[jonmohno]

This thread seems to have gotten off track. First off good call on even making a starter! Chances are your yeast will be OK, they're resilient little minions! I have personally brew several batches in my beginnings and only pitched the smack pack, you're ahead of the curve. In your case I say brew on!

Now in the future consider letting the yeast dictate when brew day is. What I mean is if you want to brew on a specific date make sure your yeast are ready as well, prepare in advance. There is nothing wrong with keeping a starter in the fridge for a few days, I've held them in waiting for two weeks and still have over 95% viability.

well you do have to worry about suckback if you have an airlock on and it happened to me with 2-3 week old iodine solution of questionable viability. Which I believe alot of people put foil on it in the fridge but I personally would be comfortable putting a plug on it. Im not shure if suckback was a reason for an offness in my batch I first kegged or it was old hops, but it was really just an aroma thing which faded-like literally dirty fridgerater smell to it. I chaulked it up to being either old hops or suckback from a starter.

 

[IL1kebeer]

One with 1l starter and the other with a 2l starter in a beer with around a 1.06 gravity and see if you really believe yourself of really seing the difference between the two.

I never once said that a 1L starter was bad. Not once. Please don't put words in my mouth. Go look back and quote me if you find me saying that. Or here. Let me help you:

1L starters are absolutely fine. The problem is that a full 1L starter is difficult to do in a 1L flask.

My ONLY argument was that a 1L flask is too small for ideal propagation for a 5 gallon batch because of inoculation rate issues. Heck, even with ideal inoculation rates it would be hard to get a decent pitch with a starter under 1L. I have not tried making a 1L starter with a 1L flask, but I'm sure it can be problematic. That's why I recommended that he get a 2L flask so that he has a lot more flexibility and won't have to waste time stepping up.

 

[jonmohno]

No. It'll be hard to make a healthy starter with such a small amount of wort. Plus you won't be able to grow up enough yeast for any high gravity beers.

This, up there dude. All said,and right he will be ok with his "little" one liter starter. If he wants to grow more yeast he can still do so and yes even witout a 2 L flask. It can be done.

 

[IL1kebeer]

This, up there dude. All said,and right he will be ok with his "little" one liter starter. If he wants to grow more yeast he can still do so and yes even witout a 2 L flask. It can be done.

Yeah you are right. I can CLEARLY see where I said that a 1L starter would be bad. I'm going to stop now before more make believe quotes are attributed to me.

 

[jonmohno]

Y

eah you are right. I can CLEARLY see where I said that a 1L starter would be bad. I'm going to stop now before more make believe quotes are attributed to me.

I think now, you just didnt see the context of this. Its happend to me before plenty of times, texting sucks somtimes. I seen what others have and their disagreement also. Im not trying to be right but its just you didnt realize how it seemed. Were only human and cant be interpretated right always. Its all good. Anyways Cheers and hope you have a good night.

 

[TheCollector]

How do I make a 2 stage starter? I put 1k ml of water with 2/3 cup of dme last night plan to brew tonight can I do the second stage now and it be ready by late tonight?

 

[RonPopeil]

How do I make a 2 stage starter? I put 1k ml of water with 2/3 cup of dme last night plan to brew tonight can I do the second stage now and it be ready by late tonight?

sorry no. a two stage starter is letting the starter go for two rounds. after the first round you let the yeast settle to the bottom and clear. pour off as much of the liquid as possible and pour another volume of starter wort on the yeast. i make this second wort about the same as the OG of the beer i'm making or at least pretty close. this method decreases yeast reproduction time which provides a quicker start and less off flavors.