I am thinking of installing an outlet for a eBIAB system. This system will have a 5500 watt element on a 30 amp gfci breaker. My question is will 50' of 10/3 wire be to long of a length? I looked at some calculators online and they said it would be fine but I thought I would check with the experts.
Length of 10/3 for 30amp
- Thread starter Eamster
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no problem
10/3 will be fine for 50'. That's about as long as you'd wanna go, though.
Firewalker11
Brewer
10/3 at 50' with a 24A load and 240V
Voltage drop: 2.40
Voltage drop percentage: 1.00%
Voltage at the end: 237.6
You are good to go!
Voltage drop: 2.40
Voltage drop percentage: 1.00%
Voltage at the end: 237.6
You are good to go!
BrasserieDuChienBrun
Member
Eamster,
I am not an expert.
This being said, I have a 10/4 extension cord of more than 60 feet that runs from a 30 amp Gfci breaker box to the control panel of my brewery. Never had any problem with it. It supplies 240v/30A to my RIMS based system.
I am not an expert.
This being said, I have a 10/4 extension cord of more than 60 feet that runs from a 30 amp Gfci breaker box to the control panel of my brewery. Never had any problem with it. It supplies 240v/30A to my RIMS based system.
Firewalker11
Brewer
The reality is that you CAN run a 30A load on a 10ga wire but code calls for only 80% of load or 24A. Which is the same draw a 5500W element will draw. Length is the real issue, 50' is the max for 10ga at 30A, you go up to 8ga for more than that.
The result is that you will get a lot of resistance, heat builds up and in the case of a kinked or damaged cord, a fire can start. A single core wire (10ga) is rated for 54A where the same gauge wire with fine strands (43 or more) is only good for 15A!
a good rule of thumb is that voltage drop doesn't start becoming an issue until the distance in feet is greater than the number of the voltage level (e.g. 120 ft for 120 volt, 240 ft for 240 volt, etc.) for residential applications, voltage drop is rarely an issue unless it is a gigantic house or circuits are run to out buildings that are a decent distance away.
Thanks for clarifying that. I knew OP's answer was that it would, but I wasn't sure about how much longer.
Firewalker11
Brewer
Hold on there, the voltage drop is not a big issue at this length BUT the amperage is. 50 max on 10ga @ 30A circuit. You lose the 80% after that.
i'm not following you.
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I see some debate above is driven from a little ambiguity in the original question.
Eamster. Are you running this circuit as romex to the outlet? I get the feeling that some of the replies are from people thinking your are running a 50 foot 10/3 extension cord.
Eamster. Are you running this circuit as romex to the outlet? I get the feeling that some of the replies are from people thinking your are running a 50 foot 10/3 extension cord.
^this. while the nec doesn't have any explicit rules on extension cord length vs ampacity, ul does. extension cords have labels on them indicating maximum voltage and current levels. different length cords sometimes have different ampacity limits, even if the cords have the same conductor size. ul rives these ratings and using electrical equipment, devices, components, etc. in accordance with its ul listing is a cornerstone of the nec. so 50' of #10 romex or thhn or similar is not a problem. 50' of #10 cord might be, depends on the label.
BrasserieDuChienBrun
Member
When I got home tonight I measured my extension cord. It is exactly 53 feet long (not over 60' finally - sorry). I run a 3500 watt RIMS, a 2500 watt element and a pump. All together they pull a little less than 27 amps. I always thought I was complying with the code. I get between 237 and 242 Volt at the panel (function of what I get from the network, I guess). The cord never heats up.
is this a homemade cord? those fall under different rules than pre-manufactured extension cords.
BrasserieDuChienBrun
Member
Firewalker11
Brewer
SOOW has an ampacity rating of 30A, 80% of 30A is 24A. You are close enough with 27A to not notice the heat but you are overdrawing.
http://cmewire.com/catalog/sec19-FCX/FCX-Cu-01-AMP.pdf
http://cmewire.com/catalog/sec19-FCX/FCX-Cu-01-AMP.pdf
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HEFFV8/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
This is the wire I was going to use. So this would be sufficient? I went with the outdoor/indoor because I was going to run it along the wall in a finished garage and didn't want to run conduit.
Also any benefit to using 10/2 as opposed to 10/3. Figure 10/3 would be safer with a 4 prog outlet. But maybe I am wrong.
This is the wire I was going to use. So this would be sufficient? I went with the outdoor/indoor because I was going to run it along the wall in a finished garage and didn't want to run conduit.
Also any benefit to using 10/2 as opposed to 10/3. Figure 10/3 would be safer with a 4 prog outlet. But maybe I am wrong.
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conductor size-wise, you are okay. 10/2 (two hots and a ground) vs 10/3 (two hots, a neutral and a ground) will be a choice based on the system you are plugging in. 10/3 give you the ability to run both 240 volt and 120 volt loads. 10/2 will not allow 120 volt loads unless you put in a transformer at your brew equipment to derive a 120 volt system.
regarding your proposed installation method, that is a code violation. uf cable follows many of the same installation rules as nm cable (romex). stapling cable to the surface of a finished garage space is not allowed. it is due to protection of the cable from physical damage. the cable isn't going to short out or burst into flames or something drastic simply for being attached to a wall, it has everything to do with protection.
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BrasserieDuChienBrun
Member
Thanks for the reference Firewalker11.
i see you are in quebec but per the nec, you do not have a code violation. your loads are not considered continuous as defined by the nec (load not continuously on for three hours or more) so you are good to go running 27 amps on your homemade #10 cordset.
So would a flexible conduit work to meet code or would it have to be rigid? In that case I might as well use regular Romex instead of indoor/outdoor to save some money right?
Or maybe a armored 10/3 cable be better for meeting code? I am just trying not to run rigid conduit as I have several turns to deal with.
http://m.homedepot.com/p/AFC-Cable-...HgOlZ7uWPURZgjb2jHMecaAgF98P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds
http://m.homedepot.com/p/AFC-Cable-...HgOlZ7uWPURZgjb2jHMecaAgF98P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds
Firewalker11
Brewer
Not to argue but I think that you may want to edit your post about the 110V legs on the 10/2. If it's simple domestic, single phase power, 220V is delivered via two equal 110 volt legs, one from either side of the bus bar. That simply means you could use other leg as 110 for other parts of the system.
There is more to it then simply two hot and a one ground but in this case, in a domestic situation I do not think it would matter.
romex would need to be in conduit or similar as well. flex conduit would not be allowed, schedule 80 pvc would be about the friendliest stuff you could use. and if you are putting up conduit, might as well pull individual conductors than romex.
and of course, this is all to meet code. if your work is unpermitted, etc., go nuts. just be aware that if you ever sell your home you would probably have to take down that romex stapled to the wall. but if you're moving, who cares, right?
Firewalker11
Brewer
The 10/3 from The Home Depot would be perfect for your situation as long as you use the correct terminus. That should be a 30 amp spa panel and then flexible armored to your control panel or put a plug in an adjoining J box for your system.
NEC calls for a distance greater than the distance you can reach from you're terminus to the spa panel, so expect another 8 feet or so from the spa panel to the J box where you plug in your cord.
NEC calls for a distance greater than the distance you can reach from you're terminus to the spa panel, so expect another 8 feet or so from the spa panel to the J box where you plug in your cord.
you would still need a neutral for the return current on a 10/2 system. if you hook one conductor up to one leg, what do you hook the other wire to for a 120 volt circuit?
romex would need to be in conduit or similar as well. flex conduit would not be allowed, schedule 80 pvc would be about the friendliest stuff you could use. and if you are putting up conduit, might as well pull individual conductors than romex.
and of course, this is all to meet code. if your work is unpermitted, etc., go nuts. just be aware that if you ever sell your home you would probably have to take down that romex stapled to the wall. but if you're moving, who cares, right?
Ok. Good deal. I am not planning on moving and most of the wire will be out of reach from any harm. I would take it down if I ever moved anyways because I would want those items for the next future house. I think I may just stick with the outdoor stuff and put it on the wall.
I am not planning on a spa panel. I found a decent deal on a 30 amp gfci breaker. Around 78. All the spa panels I saw were more than that.
Firewalker11
Brewer
That's where it becomes really touchy. It would not be to code to run a 10-2, two hot and one ground from anything but the breaker. There is exception in the code for dryer cord, stove cord etc that allows for that. A 3 wire to be used if going directly to feed an appliance or in this case, I boil kettle or brewing system. The reason for this is that the ground returns to the same place the neutral returns to and allows for safety within the system.
Keep in mind, that only in this condition are you safe because the power is alternating and simply travels from hot leg too hot leg in does not use the neutral or the ground, the ground in that case is a safety, it is not a return or a neutral.
10 - 3 would be a much better choice overall to feed a spa panel because the spot panel has a breaker in it and from the breaker you can feed 10 - to a control box where you can plug in instruments, cattle, pump etc. This gives you the ability to have a full neutral for return and ground.
And a comment about the two hot and one ground semicolon to equal 110 legs are only accessible for use on accessories if the ground goes directly back to the circuit breaker box. If it does not then you need to have the 110 leg go to neutral as you would with your 10 3 cord.
Bottom line, 10 3 is the way to go using a spa panel. That said 10 - 2 could be used in certain cases but you have to be very careful to use it within the exception.
I am sure a master electrician (I am a maintenance electrician, not a master electrician) would have an absolute cow using 10 2 in any system.
Sent from a phome, I'll c orrect spelling when I get back.
Keep in mind, that only in this condition are you safe because the power is alternating and simply travels from hot leg too hot leg in does not use the neutral or the ground, the ground in that case is a safety, it is not a return or a neutral.
10 - 3 would be a much better choice overall to feed a spa panel because the spot panel has a breaker in it and from the breaker you can feed 10 - to a control box where you can plug in instruments, cattle, pump etc. This gives you the ability to have a full neutral for return and ground.
And a comment about the two hot and one ground semicolon to equal 110 legs are only accessible for use on accessories if the ground goes directly back to the circuit breaker box. If it does not then you need to have the 110 leg go to neutral as you would with your 10 3 cord.
Bottom line, 10 3 is the way to go using a spa panel. That said 10 - 2 could be used in certain cases but you have to be very careful to use it within the exception.
I am sure a master electrician (I am a maintenance electrician, not a master electrician) would have an absolute cow using 10 2 in any system.
Sent from a phome, I'll c orrect spelling when I get back.
no, it is totally fine.
need to be careful here. prior to the 1996 version of the nec, it was acceptable for frames of electric ovens, ranges, clothes dryers and their associated outlets to be bonded (grounded) to the neutral. this often resulted in three wires being brought to these pieces of utilization equipment but not an equipment grounding conductor. the neutral conductor played the role of both the neutral and the equipment grounding conductor. and a requirement was that the circuit had to originate at the service equipment (i.e. the main panelboard, where neutral and ground are tied together). in other words, it could not be wired back to a sub-panel served from the main panelboard, only wired to the main panel itself.
this installation described above is still allowed for existing circuits but even those have to meet some minimum criteria on conductor size, insulated conductors, etc. this is so if someone buys a new oven, they don't need to go through a gnarly re-wiring of the circuit. for any new circuits, absolutely not allowed to use this installation method, even for an oven, dryer or range. for a brew panel, it wouldn't be allowed anyway since a brew panel is not an oven, range or clothes dryer. if you want 120 and 240 at the brew panel, absolutely need to run two hots, a neutral and a ground out to it. this can be served from the main panelboard or a sub-panel.
Ok so I plan on getting this controller.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/221402670805?_mwBanner=1
It utilizes 120 and 240. A plug for the pump and the brewing element. Would my 10/3 to the 30amp gfci breaker work?
http://m.ebay.com/itm/221402670805?_mwBanner=1
It utilizes 120 and 240. A plug for the pump and the brewing element. Would my 10/3 to the 30amp gfci breaker work?
yep, two hots, a neutral and a ground is what you need. when ordering the panel, be sure to select the 4-prong plug. a 3-prong is available but note the description near the bottom, which states the 120 volt pump receptacle will not work if 3-prong is selected (since there would be no neutral).
correct. and that breaker is a two-pole gfci breaker, in case that wasn't clear. seller mentions 'dryer cord' so a nema 14-30r receptacle should be what you need to install. maybe someone who knows more about the bru-matic can chime in on the plug type and cable length of the main power cord.
Firewalker11
Brewer
Yupper, good catch!
I also wanted to double check my cord length before moving to a new rental property.
I currently use 5500watt elements (only using 1 at a time currently) with a hosehead controller and 8' of 10 gauge SJEOOW (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/cable10.htm). I may be moving to a house where the the laundry room (i.e., 240v outlet) is far from the garage (where our brewing would be) and may need to run a 100-200ft cord.
Online calculators show the voltage loss isn't too bad, but from the above debate, wanted to check with experts. Would I lose 1% heating ability or 20% or more ?
I currently use 5500watt elements (only using 1 at a time currently) with a hosehead controller and 8' of 10 gauge SJEOOW (https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/cable10.htm). I may be moving to a house where the the laundry room (i.e., 240v outlet) is far from the garage (where our brewing would be) and may need to run a 100-200ft cord.
Online calculators show the voltage loss isn't too bad, but from the above debate, wanted to check with experts. Would I lose 1% heating ability or 20% or more ?
