Lavender Wit - terrible smell

[Mahanoy]

Hi all,

I just cracked open the first bottle of a Lavender Wit I brewed a few weeks ago and it reeks. It smelled bad during fermentation but I noticed some other folks having similar issues who reported that the smell had faded by the time it was done carbing. Not this one.

It's a standard Belgian wit with a half ounce of lavender in addition to the bitter orange peel and coriander. I can best describe the smell as something like old deli ham soaking in orange juice that's gone bad. The odd thing is that it tastes just fine, but the smell is pretty awful when it first hits the nose.

I'm wondering if this is a yeast issue or maybe something with the lavender. Anyone ever brewed with lavender before and had similar results? Or brewed with Wyeast's Belgian Wit yeast and had something like this happen?

I'm fine with it this way as long as it tastes good, but obviously it's not ideal and it's not one I'm likely to share with anyone. Maybe it'll clear up if I leave it alone for a few more weeks, but I'm a little worried that something was off in the process. I was careful about cleanliness and sanitation and had no problems with fermentation, so I don't think I have an infection. At this point I'm narrowing it down to the yeast or the lavender.

Any thoughts?

 

[LexusChris]

Can you post your recipe, mash temp, fermentation temp & duration, secondary, wort chilling method, etc.? Some of those details could help in figuring out the source of that aroma.

When you said 'old deli ham', I thought of rancid smells from Diacetyl or DMS infection (smell like cooked cabbage?).

I also noticed that the Wyeast Labs site talks about Beligan Witbier that

Vegetal, celery-like, or ham-like aromas from certain types of spices are inappropriate

.

Which infers that some spices could give you a ham-like aroma, although I don't know if lavender falls into that category.

On the good side, aromatics tend to fade quickly with age. So in 2 months, it may settle out.

Infections on the other hand.... :/

Hope it mellows with time! Good luck!
--LexusChris

 

[ceannt]

I did a lavender Wit last summer, and had no troubles with off aromas.... and I put a full ounce of Lavender in mine.... what kind of corriander did you use? Was it Indian? the "normal" stuff has a very different smell, almost like stale tomatos....

 

[Mahanoy]

Hmm... So probably not the lavender then. I used the regular coriander, which I think is from Africa.

LexusChris, here are the details:

5 gallon batch, 4 gallon boil, partial mash

Grains
1.5# pilsner
1.0# flaked oats
1.0# torrified wheat
3.0# wheat DME

Hops
1.0 oz. Styrian Goldings @ 60

Spices
0.5 oz. bitter orange peel @ 15
0.25 oz. crushed coriander seed @ 15
0.25 oz. lavender @ 15

0.5 oz. bitter orange peel @ flameout
0.25 oz. crushed coriander seed @ flameout
0.25 oz. lavender @ flameout

Mash Schedule (Stove-Top Method)
Mash @ 152 for 45 min. in 2 gallons
Steep and teabag @ 150 for 20 min. in 1 gallon
Top up to 4 gallon and begin boil

Fermentation
Pitched Wyeast 3944 (Belgian Wit) @ 68
In fermenter 2 weeks, temps 70-72

OG = 1043
FG = 1010

Bottled using corn sugar

Beer has good color and appropriate haze, nice head and lace, persistent bead, citrus and spiciness come through nicely in the flavor - the only issue is the smell.

 

[snailsongs]

Some people have describe wits as hot-dog flavored.....mind you, this is only "some people"....I wonder if there isn't something specific that sets that in place with this yeast....I have always used the white labs Wit yeast and I've never had that problem myself, but it sounds unappealing. If it's the yeast, however, it will likely fade over time as they clean themselves up.....

 

[Revvy]

Some people have describe wits as hot-dog flavored.....mind you, this is only "some people"....I wonder if there isn't something specific that sets that in place with this yeast....I have always used the white labs Wit yeast and I've never had that problem myself, but it sounds unappealing. If it's the yeast, however, it will likely fade over time as they clean themselves up.....

We were discussing this in another thread. Sometimes corriander does remind people of hotdogs, and/or hotdogs and mustard. I get that alot from with Celis White in particular.

 

[Mahanoy]

It could be a little like hot dogs, now that you mention it. Of course, it's only been about three weeks since I brewed it, so it might fade with some more time in the bottle. I hope so, anyway, because it really does taste good!

 

[LexusChris]

*disclaimer* taking a stab at some ideas on this, although I'm not familiar with this yeast, style or lavender.

Your description of 'old deli ham' and 'bad orange juice' make me think of phenols & esters from the yeast. WLP400 is reputed to be the same yeast as 3944, so check out these comments by brewers on WLP400. They talk of the strong tart & fruity characteristic of this yeast. Some also mention the sulfur output of this yeast, and that it fades in a few weeks if bottled early.

Revvy pointed out, the corriander spiciness can sometimes remind folks of hot dogs. Another potential source.

Your recipe looks fine. Spice additions (I assume the 2nd list of bitter orange peel, corriander & lavender were all done at flame out) seem within normal amounts & times. Although, I did notice that BYO's brewing with spices spreadsheet shows lavender as a 'steeping' spice, and not a 'boil' spice. But I would think that the boiling would contribute flavor, rather than aroma. So the flame-out addition, is doing most of the aroma work for you.

Sounds like the beer is just young, and a lot of the bad smell will mellow out in a few weeks. If it doesn't change at all after 4-8 weeks, I would wager a wild yeast or infection of some sort. But an infection should be noticed in taste, as well as smell... I think your beer will be fine.

Good luck with the beer, and please let us know what it smells like in August!
--LexusChris

 

[smokinghole]

When I did my kiwi wit with wlp400 it was definitely funky. The smell and taste were off. Then after three more weeks in the bottle the beer tasted great and it disappeared quickly.

 

[Mahanoy]

D'oh, yes. The second spice additions were all at flameout - good catch!

Yesterday I visited the local beer store paradise and picked up every version of wit they had, many I'd had several times before and a few that were new: Hoegaarden, Celis, St. Bernardus Abt Wit, Wittekerke, The Bruery Orchard (which actually has some lavender in it), Allagash, Sam Adams Imperial Wit (fyi - nothing like a witbier, but interesting nonetheless), and I even threw in a Blue Moon just for the hell of it.

I had some folks over for a tasting, and I defnitely got some hints of the same smell in some of them - it's there in the Celis (as revvy picked up too) but also in the St. Bernardus and the Wittekerke. It's nowhere near as strong, and it actually kind of works in these beers, so I'm thinking it just needs some more time in the bottle to blend and mellow out. If it's still there in a month then I'll have to take a look at my sanitizing procedures and think about any other potential sources of infection. But hopefully it's just a matter of time.

Thanks for the great feedback!

 

[Revvy]

D'oh, yes. The second spice additions were all at flameout - good catch!

Yesterday I visited the local beer store paradise and picked up every version of wit they had, many I'd had several times before and a few that were new: Hoegaarden, Celis, St. Bernardus Abt Wit, Wittekerke, The Bruery Orchard (which actually has some lavender in it), Allagash, Sam Adams Imperial Wit (fyi - nothing like a witbier, but interesting nonetheless), and I even threw in a Blue Moon just for the hell of it.

I had some folks over for a tasting, and I defnitely got some hints of the same smell in some of them - it's there in the Celis (as revvy picked up too) but also in the St. Bernardus and the Wittekerke. It's nowhere near as strong, and it actually kind of works in these beers, so I'm thinking it just needs some more time in the bottle to blend and mellow out. If it's still there in a month then I'll have to take a look at my sanitizing procedures and think about any other potential sources of infection. But hopefully it's just a matter of time.

Thanks for the great feedback!

I've actually cooked with Celis and even my own wit, to play off that corriander/mustardy ness. I've added it to a welsh rarebit like sauce. It works nice. It's a nice compliment to mustard, and swiss cheese.

 

[Mahanoy]

That sounds really tasty! I've only ever used wits in desserts before, but let me tell you - pears poached in witbier are out of this world good!

 

[Mahanoy]

So it's been almost a month in the bottle now, and the smell's practically gone. What's left is a subtle citrus and lavender note and a really beautiful beer!

 

[BarlimanButterbur]

A hammy, deli-meat flavour is almost certainly from the coriander. Anyone hoping to avoid it should use Indian coriander. I think that it isn't the country of origin that's relevant, but that Indian coriander is actually a different variety. Its seed has an oblong or rugby-ball shape, instead of the more spherical shape of other coriander. It should be pretty easy to find images online demonstrating the difference.