lager yeast opinions needed

[fordbeer]

I wanted to get some opinions on lager yeast.

the recipes are from brewing classic styles. they call for 4 packages of yeast. the yeast pacs from wyeast say it will handle 5 gal of wort, but I wonder if this takes into account the lower temps,
I have also read that we need 150 billion cells for a lager. 4 pacs is way more than 150 billion. should I make a 9 liter starter, or a 1 liter starter?

I have also harvested some lager yeast and am ready to use it. what kind of starter and what size are people using? how much of the harvested yeast should I use.

thanks for any help

 

[Yooper]

It really depends on the freshness (age) of the yeast and the OG of the beer. I recommend using a yeast pitching calculator to see the recommended starter size.

Mrmalty.com has one, and yeastcalc.com is another free one.

 

[fordbeer]

I have used that calculator. 450 billion seems like a lot of cells. john palmers book recommends 15o billion for lagers. I guess that is too low? yeast is less than a month old

 

[Jsbeckton]

I have made a 9L starter in 3 steps for a 11gal 1.056 batch starting with one vial and fermentation was great.

 

[zeg]

The general rule, which may be due to George Fix, and is at least endorsed pretty widely, is 1.5 million cells per mL per degree Plato. Grabbing a reasonable number for a medium-strength beer of 12°P (1.048 SG), for a 5.3 gallon batch (20,000 mL), that works out to 360 billion cells.

Adivised lager rates are typically half that (0.75 million per mL per °P)

 

[GMesick]

should I make a 9 liter starter, or a 1 liter starter?

The "Classic Styles" table shows you that a larger starter can compensate for fewer packs of yeast. Starters have a multiplier effect, which John Palmer explains--including a summary of his and Jamil's rationale in "Classic Styles" in this "BYO" article. Here's a link:

http://***********/component/resource/article/1749-yeast-pitching-rates-advance-homebrewing

 

[zeg]

Keep in mind that jumping into a 9 liter starter with a single pack of yeast is going to give you less reproduction than you expect. It will be more efficient (in terms of extract, though perhaps not time) to do a 1-2 liter step first, and then you should be able to get away with a smaller second stage to hit the same pitch rate.

Also, on Palmer's article, I notice that in the latter part of the article, he seems to drop the "per degree Plato" part. I believe when he says, "the corresponding rates for estery lagers such as Kölsch and California common are 1.0–1.125 billion cells per liter," he must mean to add "per degree Plato." Otherwise he's advocating 20-30 billion cells for a 20 liter batch instead of 200-600 billion (depending on starting gravity). He gets it right in the early part of the article.

 

[solbes]

I've made 4 lagers in my brewing. First was a vienna that was okay. It had a 4 quart starter. Probably had too long of a diacetyl rest and never got that really clean flavor imparted during cold lagering...lesson learned. Next a Stella clone that was underpitched with 2 quart stater, and not very tasty. Next an Okto where I washed and pitched a large part of the Stella yeast cake. Turned out fantastic. And finally a Maibock in primary now that tasted pretty clean even after D-rest. I made a large 6 quart starter for that one.

Pitching rate seems to be the key for me. 6 quart starters are kinda silly as you have to step them and use a lot of DME. From now on, I think I will make lagers in a 2 step fashion. A modest gravity pilsner or vienna that grows the yeast for the subsequent higher gravity Okto's/Bocks. A 4 quart starter should be sufficient for the modest gravity "starter" lagers, or just pitch 2-3 packets of dry yeast.

I continue to learn and grow with lagers. They are definitely a challenge if you are trying to mimic some of the great German lagers out there.

 

[zeg]

Don't be afraid of big starters. I've made four lagers now, though three of them are still in production and I've only sampled two bottles of the first one. However, they seem to be working out very well. I've been doing my best to follow the Yeastcalc / MrMalty pitching rates, though with a lot of ballpark estimation. I'd guess I hit rates within a factor of a few of the intended rate. If you want to do a pair of compatible beers successively, solbes suggestion of doing a lower gravity beer as a starter is a good one. I did this, rinsing the yeast to minimize flavor transfer and to save some for future batches, and it worked well. You can also make a small quantity of decent light beer by hopping the starter (though take care to use hops compatible with the main batch if you don't want to rinse your starter).

But I think you have to be realistic. There's no sense making a bad beer, so just think of the extract for the starters as part of the cost of a high gravity lager. I did a 0.5-2.5-5 L starter sequence and it only took about a pound and a half of DME, so that's roughly a dime a bottle. Sure, it'd be nicer not to have spent it, but it was still cheaper than a second vial of liquid yeast.

 

[osagedr]

1.5 million cells per ml per degree Plato has tended to work well for me (I tend to ferment on the cool side). If you are trying to talk yourself into pitching fewer cells, go ahead--but don't be surprised when the next thread you start has a title like "Stuck Fermentation" or "The 1.020 curse."

 

[Yooper]

1.5 million cells per ml per degree Plato has tended to work well for me (I tend to ferment on the cool side). If you are trying to talk yourself into pitching fewer cells, go ahead--but don't be surprised when the next thread you start has a title like "Stuck Fermentation" or "The 1.020 curse."

Or worse- "Overwhelming diacetyl not fixed by a diacetyl rest!".

I have made many many lagers. You can certainly make a lager with a small starter, or even no starter at all. But the odds of it coming out well are much smaller than with one using the proper amount of yeast.

A lager is fermented cool, is "clean" and "crisp". They key to a lager is the yeast, and healthy yeast, for fermentation. Sometimes shortcuts work out ok for ales, and sometimes they might even for lagers. But I wouldn't risk $45 worth of ingredients (or more) when making a stepped up starter is kindergarten-simple.

 

[osagedr]

If you had to ballpark the number of lagers you have made Yooper, what do you think it would be?