Lactic acid additons and water profile

[thehaze]

Hello,


I have recently ( past 6 months ) started to use EZWater ( seems easier to use ) to get a better picture of the mash pH and the additions og brewing salts and lactic acid, for lowering the pH during mash.

My water has the following profile ( bottled water - no RO water where I live ):

Ca = 9.53
Mg = 2.63
Na = 2.88
Cl = 3.55
SO4 = 7.2
HCO3 = 48.8
pH = 7.2

I have no way of actually measuring the pH during mash ( I would love to put some money together and buy a pH meter ), thus I rely on the spreadsheets I can find on the Internet.

For the following recipe, EZWater suggests 8 ml Lactic Acid ( I have the 80% one ) to bring the mash pH down to 5.28:

13.2 lbs Pilsner
2.2 lbs Flaked Wheat
2.2 lbs CaraPils ( Weyermann )

I have tried BrunWater ( and hopefully done it right ) and it tells me to add 3.3 ml Lactic Acid to the mash and 1.3 ml to the sparge water ( due to the high pH of the water, I guess ).

I have never acidified my sparge water, but it sounds like I should.

Also, the almost 5 ml acid difference between the two spreadsheets makes me think that I have possibly over acidified and used too much lactic acid.

I had beers where I used 9-10 ml for 6 gallons of finished beer during the mash.

I have read people say that a mash pH between 5.2 and 5.5 would be OK for most styles and I am trying to lower the pH during mash to under 5.3 as it seems this will yield better tasting (hoppy) beers, but it seems I could risk adding to much lactic acid, which might transfer to the final product.

I am new with water chemistry and this is more for yellow/pale/bright beers. The darker ones are better, as usually the crystal and roasted malts take care of the pH.

My recent beer, an IPA using Pilsner, Pale Ale, Munich and CaraPils used 9 ml og Lactic Acid and it has some sort of twang/mouth twisting taste to it, altough moderately hoppy and aromatic ( S-04 for the yeast and Simcoe, Amarillo, Citra and Mosaic amounting to 10 oz for dry hopping ).

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Pilsner malt is most typically highly alkaline with respect to pH 5.3. If you are not further mineralizing your water, and depending upon the source and color of this malt, it seems as if 8 mL is likely going to be closer to what is required here. It could actually require more than that for some Pilsner malts. Wheat malts are also very high in alkalinity with respect to 5.3 pH, and are often more alkaline than Pilsner malts. The only way to actually know however is to measure a room temperature mash sample taken at about 10-15 minutes into the mash with a freshly calibrated and reliable pH meter.

2.2 Lbs. of CaraPils seems to be an excessive amount here, as often it is used more on the order of 8 oz. My suspicion is that the spreadsheet which is indicating only on the order of 3.3 mL of lactic acid in the strike water is potentially low-balling the DI_pH of the 1.5L CaraPils dextrin malt, as well as potentially low-balling the DI_pH of the Pilsner malt, and also potentially low-balling the DI_pH of the wheat malt. The cumulative effect of this series of low DI_pH guesses would seem to be the only way there could be such a vast disparity between 8 mL for one spreadsheets prediction and a 3.3 mL prediction for the other. Either way, both are merely predicting results based upon their programming, and due to minimal requested input (malt color, class, and weight) they can't really know the actual pH nature of your malts, so they must guess based upon color and malt class alone, and are thereby they are in no way capable of being as reliable and accurate as a decent pH meter measurement.

My free download 'Mash Made Easy' spreadsheet (in its default configuration) is coming much closer to the 8 mL lactic acid prediction. And it has the capability of entering actually measured DI_mash pH values for the individual grist components if they are known, as well as the capability of fine tuning the expected mash pH ranges for the primary base malts types, and the overall grists pH buffering characteristics, so it is far more highly scaleable in its ability to dial in a more correct answer based upon actual pH meter measurements for individual grist components or for an overall recipe, so that by practice the end user can learn the required parameters needed to be to entered for a recipe and its components so that for future repeats of any given recipe it can better guess (predict) the mash pH outcome for said recipe.

 

[thehaze]

The EZwater spreadsheet actually comes with different pH for every malt and when I add the grains and the qty, it also adjusts the impact of those in the mash. This is why I know that Pilsner malt requires more lactic acid and wheat malt even more, thus bringing me to the problem I am sitting with.

I have nothing against using various spreadsheets to " aproximate " the amount of salts and acid required for adjusting pH. I am kinda trying to figure out if the use lactic acid in higher amounts ( I believe Martin - BrunWater - said once that it can be tasted if more than 1.5 ml per gallon ) would add any flavours to the final beer.

I would also like to know, from both science and experience, if a higher mash pH, say 5.35 would be detrimental to the beer ( only light, yellow, hoppy beers ) as opposed to a mash pH of 5.25.

I remember seeing a video where the brewer from The Alchemist said something in the lines of " keep that pH under 5.3 "...

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Due to all of the unknowns it may be best to target a more midrange 5.4 pH for a recipes first run, and then only after measurement and understanding are gained thereby, dial in a more refined mash pH target if desired for subsequent brewings of the same recipe.

The general consensus is that if you mash a bit lower than 5.4 you gain crispness and if you mash a bit higher than pH 5.4 you gain smoothness, but I have never brewed side by side identical batches sans for mash pH whereby to definitively gauge this. Brulosophy has brewed batches at disparagingly low and high mash pH's in a couple of such carefully designed and controlled tests, and in both of their tests regarding mash pH disparity (high and low) the assembled triangle testers could not statistically distinguish between them and the control batch.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

There also appears to be a potentially egregious error in the programming of the spreadsheet which predicted 3.3 mL of lactic acid, as the reality is that if more weight of alkaline Pilsner "type" malt is added to the grist the overall alkalinity present (as well as the mash pH) is driven upward thereby and the required acid to counter the added alkaline malt and re-normalize the mash pH to your target must go up, but for this particular software as more Pilsner malt is added to the grist (with no other changes made) the mash pH oddly goes down, and therefore the required addition of lactic or phosphoric acid goes down for this software. You can easily verify this oddity by creating a simple recipe with only 10 lbs. of Pilsner, then bump it to 15 lbs. and see how it reacts opposite to how it should.

 

[ajdelange]

My water has the following profile ( bottled water - no RO water where I live ):

Ca = 9.53
Mg = 2.63
Na = 2.88
Cl = 3.55
SO4 = 7.2
HCO3 = 48.8
pH = 7.2


For the following recipe, EZWater suggests 8 ml Lactic Acid ( I have the 80% one ) to bring the mash pH down to 5.28:

13.2 lbs Pilsner
2.2 lbs Flaked Wheat
2.2 lbs CaraPils ( Weyermann )

That seems a lot but is actually low for mash pH of 5.28. Thirteen point 2 lbs of Weyerman pneumatic pils would have a proton deficit (amount of acid needed to get it to pH 5.28) of 96 mEq, Weyerman Floor pils 91 and Rahr Pils 150! For the Weyerman floor you would need something like 11 mL of 88% lactic assuming the Cara to be slightly acidic and the flaked wheat to be slightly basic at this pH.

But 5.27 is much lower than you want to be. For a beer with a grist like this I'd think 5.5 would be much more reasonable. At that pH the Weyerman pneumatic proton deficit drops to 31 mEq and the lactic acid requirement to 3.7 mL of 88%. These numbers, of course, all depend on how well the malts I measured compare to the malts you are actually using and emphasizes the importance of using a pH meter.

I have never acidified my sparge water, but it sounds like I should.

With alkalinity this low (0.82 mEq/L ~ 41 ppm as CaCO3) it is probably not necessary but should you wish to do so a good approach is to acidify the entire volume of brewing water (mash and sparge) to the target mash pH and then tell whatever spreadsheet you are going to use that the alkalinity is 0. The spreadsheet then only worries about the acid needed to deal with the malts' alkalinities. The acid needed is about 90% of the alkalinity and so you would add 0.73 mL of acid for each liter of brewing water. Lactic acid (88%) is about 11.5 N so that means liters_water*0.73/11.5 mL acid required. It is, of course, best to use a pH meter and dribble in acid until mash pH is reached,

Also, the almost 5 ml acid difference between the two spreadsheets makes me think that I have possibly over acidified and used too much lactic acid.

That is possible but in this case it would seem more likely that you used too little for pH 5.28 but the good news here is that you really want a higher pH and that is doubtless what you got.

I have read people say that a mash pH between 5.2 and 5.5 would be OK for most styles and I am trying to lower the pH during mash to under 5.3 as it seems this will yield better tasting (hoppy) beers, but it seems I could risk adding to much lactic acid, which might transfer to the final product.

Are you reading from sources that quote mash pH at mash temperature? Under 5.3 seems low for room temperature referred mash pH.

I am new with water chemistry and this is more for yellow/pale/bright beers. The darker ones are better, as usually the crystal and roasted malts take care of the pH.

The darker beers are actually trickier because the variability in the range of DI mash pH and malt buffering capacities is wider in the malts used (the range of available products is much greater) but the powerful flavors they contribute dominate the nuanced changes that pH makes in the base malt derived flavors. There is no place to hide errors in lager beer.

[Edit] All pH calculations in this post based on 1.36 qts/Lb

 

[mabrungard]

I'm just marveling at the soothsaying of the respondents above. While you're at it, please tell us what the next Powerball Lottery numbers will be. I say this since there is NO WAY for any of those respondents to state that any result is accurate when there is exceedingly important information missing...the mashing water volume.

It's interesting that the OP is using 80% lactic acid since that is less common. But that's an important reason to use software that has the capability to accurately account for the differing strength and reporting units of a large range of acids. Bru'n Water is still a reliable and accurate resource for brewers around the world. Creating a tool that's only useful in the United States is narrow-minded. The world is truly full of homebrewers!

 

[thehaze]

Hi, Martin!

The mash volume for the recipe qouted above is 22L ( 5.8 gallons ) and the sparge volume is 17L ( 4.5 gallons ). This is to obtain a 26L batch ( 6.86 gallons ) with the Grainfather. This is pushing the limits of the system, but I am doing it this way, in order to bottle around 21-22L, especially with the heavier dry hopped beers.

The reason I use 80% lactic acid is quite simple: it's the most common lactic acid in the home brewing shops in Europe, at least them from UK, Germany and Belgium, where I usually shop around for supplies. So I got that, assuming the difference will mean a slightly higher amount used every time.

Regarding the results I got using the BrunWater spreadsheet... I have never used it before, hence my first hand experience might not be the best one. I tried my best filling all the required fields and hoped I did it OK.

That being said, the thread I started is due to my lack of knowledge on the subject and the dream of possibly brewing better beer, by understanding the weaknesses and strengths of my own brewing process and experience or lack thereof.

Thank you all for pitching in.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm just marveling at the soothsaying of the respondents above. While you're at it, please tell us what the next Powerball Lottery numbers will be. I say this since there is NO WAY for any of those respondents to state that any result is accurate when there is exceedingly important information missing...the mashing water volume.

Well I can't give the powerball numbers but I can, perhaps, spare Martin another sleepless night by pointing out that with water with such small alkalinity (0.82 mEq/L) the volume of water won't make much difference unless it is something way out of line. In my calculations (and I should have stated this in the post) I assumed 6 gal of mash water for 1 - 1/3 qts/lb (2.8 L/kg) which I usually do for addressing questions like this one. OPs subsequent post confirms that this is a pretty good assumption, at least in this case. Were he to use 7 (1.59 qts/lb) the estimated mash pH would rise from 5.5 to 5.507 and were he to assay to use 8 gallons for a loose 1.82 qt/lb mash estimated pH would skyrocket to 5.514. Were he insistent on staying right at 5.5 he'd need another 0.4 mL of lactic acid.

At lower mash pH (e.g. OP's 5.28) the extra acid requirement is still 0.4 mL but, of course, it is a smaller percentage of the total. Note also that an increase in mash thickness to 1 qt/Lb would require a similar volume reduction (0.4 mL).

So it seems that if one is dealing with low alkalinity water one can get away with an assumed mash thickness as long as it is reasonable. Put another way, with all the other uncertainties water volume is, at low alkalinity, a small part of the pH estimate error budget. Of course if one knows the actual mash thickness he should use it in his calculations.

It's interesting that the OP is using 80% lactic acid since that is less common. But that's an important reason to use software that has the capability to accurately account for the differing strength and reporting units of a large range of acids.

Just multiply the acid calculated for 88% by 1.11 to get the amount of 80% acid needed. This will probably get you a more accurate answer than most spreadsheets which, AFAIK, do not account for the fact that the strength of the acid depends on the mash pH. I even wonder if some account for the density change with acid strength. The errors are small but then this post is about nit picking, after all.

 

[thehaze]

Thank you all for your input.

I have now had the chance to taste two of my beers, where I added 9 and 10 ml Lactic acid and they do seem to have a sourish tase to it, almost bitter/astringent.

I have decided to brew a few trial batches with Pilsner, Wheat and Flaked wheat, where I acidify the sparge water with 1 ml acid and only use up to 5-6 ml of lactic acid for the mash.

I will also try to cut a bit from the sparge water qty, as I might have over sparged at some point with the two batches, trying to get a bigger pre-boil volume, to get more beer in the fermenter. Possible astrigency was achieved, but I cannot dare say...

Using the 3 spreadsheets for the same grainbill, I get different results. I decided to go with a mid lactic acid addition and see how it goes.