Kettle Soured Berliner Weisse

[Lodovico]

Interested in starting another discussion from people that have tried this. I k now there are threads about it, but I would like to hear more about people's complete walk through from start to finish.

I'm planning on mashing and sparging as normal, and then holding the temp in the kettle between 95 and 110 for at least 24 hours. I'm planning on pitching Wyeast 5223-PC Lactobacillus Brevis into the kettle and following up with S-05 once cooled and in the fermentor.

I'm just curious to hear how this has worked for people? I'm most concerned about the hopping method, because I know Lacto is really hop intolerant. Curious about water profile and pH suggestions for the mash also. Thoughts?

 

[joshrosborne]

I've done something like this in the past, except once once I got to the sour level I wanted, I boiled to kill the Lacto and then pitched yeast. In this case, I used grain to sour the wort.

I have also done exactly what you're describing: mashed and ran off wort, heated to 180 with a heat stick to kill all the bad stuff from the grain, let it cool down to 110 and pitched Brevis. I never ended up getting it as sour as I wanted, but I think that might be because I mash hopped with Sorachi Ace to get a little of the lemon flavor. I'm going to try it again and leave out the mash hopping to see if it works better with the souring.

 

[Lodovico]

I've done something like this in the past, except once once I got to the sour level I wanted, I boiled to kill the Lacto and then pitched yeast. In this case, I used grain to sour the wort.

I have also done exactly what you're describing: mashed and ran off wort, heated to 180 with a heat stick to kill all the bad stuff from the grain, let it cool down to 110 and pitched Brevis. I never ended up getting it as sour as I wanted, but I think that might be because I mash hopped with Sorachi Ace to get a little of the lemon flavor. I'm going to try it again and leave out the mash hopping to see if it works better with the souring.

Very helpful, thanks. I was wondering about mash hopping hurting the hop intolerant lacto. I'm thinking of moving it over from mash to kettle (no hops), heat to 180, cool to 100-110, let it go 24 hours, take a pH reading, and then boil for 10 minutes with real low dose of hops. Does that sound about right?

 

[joshrosborne]

Very helpful, thanks. I was wondering about mash hopping hurting the hop intolerant lacto. I'm thinking of moving it over from mash to kettle (no hops), heat to 180, cool to 100-110, let it go 24 hours, take a pH reading, and then boil for 10 minutes with real low dose of hops. Does that sound about right?

I think that will work, though it's possible one day won't be long enough to sour it. I'd play that part by ear and use the pH meter to decide when it's done. Also, as for the hops, you can use them or not use them. To be honest, the level you'd use for a Berliner Weisse (<5 or so) doesn't really add anything to the beer.

 

[Calder]

I guess you can use a PH meter. I just taste my wort to see if it is sour enough. I don't boil after souring, and just pitch the yeast when it is sour enough. I think one of the biggest mistakes people make with BWs is pitching the yeast too early = beer not sour enough. The other is adding hops before souring.

You can add whatever hops you want when you boil after it is sour. For my BWs, the only hops I add are Dry Hops. The first ones I did had no hops, and they were good, but I have found dry hopping adds a nice extra dimension to the beer. Nelson Sauvin is great in the beer.

 

[joshrosborne]

I
You can add whatever hops you want when you boil after it is sour. For my BWs, the only hops I add are Dry Hops. The first ones I did had no hops, and they were good, but I have found dry hopping adds a nice extra dimension to the beer. Nelson Sauvin is great in the beer.

This. I Citra dry-hopped my last one and though it wasn't sour enough, it turned out delicious.

 

[Lodovico]

An update from my experience this weekend. I pitched my Lacto and gave it almost 24 hours. It seemed pretty tart. Unfortunately, I didn't have my pH meter to take a reading. I boiled it for 10 minutes and hopped it to 5 IBUs. Chilled and racked to fermentors.

Here's the issue I'm seeing. I pitched S-05 and I still don't have any activity this morning. S-05 usually takes off quickly. I'm wondering if it's the lowered pH that it's struggling with??

 

[TopherM]

Here's the step-by-step instructions we have in our brewclub's archives. We've had a few members make medal winners with this exact method:

Grain Bill (5.0 gallon batch)
4 lbs crushed Wheat Malt (or 3 lbs Wheat LME)
4 lbs crushed Pilsner Malt (or 3 lbs Pils LME)
0.5 lbs UNCRUSHED extra Pilsner/Two-Row Malt for sour inoculation
Hop to taste (traditional BWs have no hops, those that do are very low IBU<10)
Liquid German Ale Yeast (traditional) or S-05 dry yeast

Procedures
1) Mash crushed malts at 146-148F for at least 20 minutes, holding back 0.5 lbs of uncrushed malt. You may find it useful to complete this step with a smaller pot at a 1.0-1.25 qt/lb grist ratio to make it easier to handle (especially BIAB brewers that would typically use full water volume).

2) After 20 minute mash, cool to 110F, add the 0.5 lbs of uncrushed malt to the mash and stir it in.

3) Cover the mash with cling wrap, etc. If possible, purge the O2 from between the grain bed and the cling wrap. Easy way to do this is take the gas disconnect off your CO2 tank, put the tube under the cling wrap, allowing space for O2 to escape, and open your CO2 tank for a couple seconds.

4) You&#8217;ll need a method to maintain the temp at about 90-120F for 2-4 days. The higher the temp in this range, the faster it will sour. A couple suggestions:

a. A 40 watt light bulb will maintain a 100-110F temp in an insulated cooler/closed fermentation chamber, or even in the oven with just the internal oven light on. Wrap the pot in a towel to help insulation.

b. Space heater in an interior closet/bathroom. Make sure you do this in a way that will be safe for 2-4 days, and not a fire hazard!

c. Keep the bottom/sides in contact with a heating pad, wrapping the pot in towels/blanket. Make sure you do this in a way that will be safe for 2-4 days, and not a fire hazard!


5) At 100F, you should get a light sour in 2 days, moderate sour in 3 days, and prominent sour in 4 days. Taste the mash in about 8 hour intervals throughout to test sour levels to your personal tastes, being careful to maintain the CO2 blanket (repeat O2 purge, if necessary). Remember that you will add water to get to your full volume, diluting the sour level, so plan accordingly.

6) Once you have your desired sour level, complete your brew day as normal. The boil will stop the souring process by killing the lactobacillus, and lock in the sour profile of the existing lactic acid.

7) Cool/Pitch/Ferment as normal.

TIPS and TRICKS

&#61607; Lactic acid is relatively dense and will screw up OG readings, so don&#8217;t worry if something seems a little off. Also, some species of lactobacillus produce alcohol, and some don&#8217;t, so there may be up to 10-15% attenuation/gravity loss during your sour mash.

&#61607; Your sour mash SHOULD smell pretty pungent. In particular, a healthy lactobacillus sour mash should smell like cooked corn.

&#61607; You WILL need to either make a proper yeast starter or pitch multiple packs for this sour beer. The saccharomyces strains in the German Ale yeast/S-05 HATE the low PH of the lactic acid, and will stall/be sluggish without a proper pitch rate. Yeast nutrient always helps as well. Also oxygenate well prior to pitching!

&#61607; A Berliner Weiss should be carbonated to 3.0-3.5 volumes CO2.

&#61607; Great with real fruit additions in secondary or with flavored syrups!

 

[stru]

Mine really seem to struggle on takeoff. Give it some time... You should be fine.

 

[Lodovico]

Here's the step-by-step instructions we have in our brewclub's archives. We've had a few members make medal winners with this exact method:

Grain Bill (5.0 gallon batch)
4 lbs crushed Wheat Malt (or 3 lbs Wheat LME)
4 lbs crushed Pilsner Malt (or 3 lbs Pils LME)
0.5 lbs UNCRUSHED extra Pilsner/Two-Row Malt for sour inoculation
Hop to taste (traditional BWs have no hops, those that do are very low IBU<10)
Liquid German Ale Yeast (traditional) or S-05 dry yeast

Procedures
1) Mash crushed malts at 146-148F for at least 20 minutes, holding back 0.5 lbs of uncrushed malt. You may find it useful to complete this step with a smaller pot at a 1.0-1.25 qt/lb grist ratio to make it easier to handle (especially BIAB brewers that would typically use full water volume).

2) After 20 minute mash, cool to 110F, add the 0.5 lbs of uncrushed malt to the mash and stir it in.

3) Cover the mash with cling wrap, etc. If possible, purge the O2 from between the grain bed and the cling wrap. Easy way to do this is take the gas disconnect off your CO2 tank, put the tube under the cling wrap, allowing space for O2 to escape, and open your CO2 tank for a couple seconds.

4) You’ll need a method to maintain the temp at about 90-120F for 2-4 days. The higher the temp in this range, the faster it will sour. A couple suggestions:

a. A 40 watt light bulb will maintain a 100-110F temp in an insulated cooler/closed fermentation chamber, or even in the oven with just the internal oven light on. Wrap the pot in a towel to help insulation.

b. Space heater in an interior closet/bathroom. Make sure you do this in a way that will be safe for 2-4 days, and not a fire hazard!

c. Keep the bottom/sides in contact with a heating pad, wrapping the pot in towels/blanket. Make sure you do this in a way that will be safe for 2-4 days, and not a fire hazard!


5) At 100F, you should get a light sour in 2 days, moderate sour in 3 days, and prominent sour in 4 days. Taste the mash in about 8 hour intervals throughout to test sour levels to your personal tastes, being careful to maintain the CO2 blanket (repeat O2 purge, if necessary). Remember that you will add water to get to your full volume, diluting the sour level, so plan accordingly.

6) Once you have your desired sour level, complete your brew day as normal. The boil will stop the souring process by killing the lactobacillus, and lock in the sour profile of the existing lactic acid.

7) Cool/Pitch/Ferment as normal.

TIPS and TRICKS

&#61607; Lactic acid is relatively dense and will screw up OG readings, so don’t worry if something seems a little off. Also, some species of lactobacillus produce alcohol, and some don’t, so there may be up to 10-15% attenuation/gravity loss during your sour mash.

&#61607; Your sour mash SHOULD smell pretty pungent. In particular, a healthy lactobacillus sour mash should smell like cooked corn.

&#61607; You WILL need to either make a proper yeast starter or pitch multiple packs for this sour beer. The saccharomyces strains in the German Ale yeast/S-05 HATE the low PH of the lactic acid, and will stall/be sluggish without a proper pitch rate. Yeast nutrient always helps as well. Also oxygenate well prior to pitching!

&#61607; A Berliner Weiss should be carbonated to 3.0-3.5 volumes CO2.

&#61607; Great with real fruit additions in secondary or with flavored syrups!

Thanks for contributing, but I'm interested in Kettle Souring, not Sour Mashing. I've sour mashed many times. Thanks though!

 

[stru]

I've had good success souring in my kettle. I tend to sour the wort for 3-4 days, boil for 20 minutes, and ferment as usual.

As far as hops go, I add .5 oz of hallertau hops to the wort before souring and another .25 oz during the boil.

 

[Calder]

An update from my experience this weekend. I pitched my Lacto and gave it almost 24 hours. It seemed pretty tart. Unfortunately, I didn't have my pH meter to take a reading. I boiled it for 10 minutes and hopped it to 5 IBUs. Chilled and racked to fermentors.

Here's the issue I'm seeing. I pitched S-05 and I still don't have any activity this morning. S-05 usually takes off quickly. I'm wondering if it's the lowered pH that it's struggling with??

If there is any souring, it will slow the yeast down.

However, I suspect you have minimal souring. Mine usually take 5 to 7 days at a constant 100 F. I always taste it to ensure it is sour enough.

 

[Bankshot]

Instead of souring in kettle I soured in fermentor with no boiling. I made a lacto starter for 4-5 days with a handful of uncrushed grain and some DME in a mason jar. This was 4 months ago so I can't remember my exact amounts.

I threw .5-1oz of hops into the mash.
Mash/sparge like normal directly into fermentor.
Pitch lacto starter and hold fermentor at 100-110. Taste daily until desired sourness reached, mine took about 4 days.
Cool to pitch temp and sprinkle s-05 directly into fermentor. Not rehydrated.
The s05 got going after about 12 hours or so. It was never a rowdy fermentation.

I actually just tapped this a few days ago and it tastes great. It still needs a few more days to carb completely so it'll only get better.

It sat around for 4 months before it was tapped because i had other kegs waiting. The sour profile didn't change any from fermentation to tapping. It's a nice obvious tartness but it doesn't hit you in the cheeks when you take a drink. After a few sips it isn't as sharp and you can taste some of the hops and malt come through. Mine came out to 6.7%. I like to go big.

 

[Rjppunk]

Great advice in this thread, I current have my first two trial sours in the primary right now. I ended up mashing normally, collecting the wort back in my cleaned and sanitized mash tun, adding 0.5lbs of acidulated malt and a little lactic acid to get me started, then pitched a lacto vial. I took the igloo mash tun and wrapped it in a blanket, a heated blanket, and two other blankets in that order. Easiest way I found was to set all 4 blankets on the floor to insulate the bottom, then wrap up to the top and check on it periodically. I kept it at 95-102 for 48 hours without opening. The blanket would warm it up to 102, and drop down to 95-97 over night when I was asleep (timer would shut off the blanket.) pH was down to 3.6 after 48 hours, not what I wanted but I ran out of time and did a 90 minute boil from there.

Not sure if this is the best way to do it, but it was pretty simple. Considering making a few lacto starters though, one with malt and one with a vial, and comparing how they do. I'd rather buy the vial for a few bucks and have it be more reliable than use the malt and lose a batch of beer.

 

[D-Train]

An update from my experience this weekend. I pitched my Lacto and gave it almost 24 hours. It seemed pretty tart. Unfortunately, I didn't have my pH meter to take a reading. I boiled it for 10 minutes and hopped it to 5 IBUs. Chilled and racked to fermentors.

Here's the issue I'm seeing. I pitched S-05 and I still don't have any activity this morning. S-05 usually takes off quickly. I'm wondering if it's the lowered pH that it's struggling with??

So how'd it turn out?

 

[davejanssen]

Sounds like lots of good experience here. Personally, i don't like kettle soured beers as much as fermentation soured beers when sourness is one of the primary characteristics. The combination of lower attenuation/heavier body and sourness in kettle soured beers isn't something that I like very much.

For a berliner I like really light and refreshing beer/body. By souring in the fermenter without re-boiling you would likely increase your attenuation. But souring, boiling and using normal yeast probably won't result in much more attenuation than just using a normal ale yeast.

 

[TopherM]

FYI, just won a gold medal for a Berliner I made using the sour mash method I posted earlier in the thread, so I guess it works just fine

 

[tmm0f5]

Interested in starting another discussion from people that have tried this. I k now there are threads about it, but I would like to hear more about people's complete walk through from start to finish.

I'm planning on mashing and sparging as normal, and then holding the temp in the kettle between 95 and 110 for at least 24 hours. I'm planning on pitching Wyeast 5223-PC Lactobacillus Brevis into the kettle and following up with S-05 once cooled and in the fermentor.

I'm just curious to hear how this has worked for people? I'm most concerned about the hopping method, because I know Lacto is really hop intolerant. Curious about water profile and pH suggestions for the mash also. Thoughts?

Just brewed one last week. I mashed low at 147. Boiled temporarily to kill off any off-flavor generating bugs and to stop the mash. Cooled to 115. Pitched White Labs Lacto delbruckei (sp?) for 24 hours. I didn't actively warm it. I let it cool passively. Was 85 degrees the next day. Tasted lightly tart, the aroma was significantly bready and tart. Boiled for 15 minutes (added 0.5 oz of Saaz to this boil). Cooled, pitched a starter of White Labs European Ale. Was fermenting away within 12 hours.

Will let you know how it goes.

-Tim