Kettle sour saison + wheat = mud?

[Eichler]

I decided I would try and sour my saison recipe and right now I have a carboy full of chocolate milk looking stuff. Where did I go wrong? I know I know, I kettled soured. Now that we've gotten that out of the way, would someone help me determine where ELSE I went wrong? Aside from the color, lack of clarity, and body/mouth feel it tastes pretty good (for young beer).

I inoculated my mash in my Grainfather and kept it at 114F for 12hours. When I started to go my protein rests, raise temp, circulate and mash out...well the wort never really cleared up. I let it circ for over an hour and it only got worse. My sparge stuck and when I scraped the false bottom a little, my cloudy problem got even cloudier.

1) Is my beer ruined?
2) Can I save it? Filtering methods?
3) What went wrong?

Thoughts and advice appreciated.

 

[ptownbmac]

Did you sour mash (pre-boil) or kettle sour (post boil)? Or maybe you didn't boil at all.
Sounds like you inoculated before the mash had even happened.
Did you inoculate with uncrushed grain or pure culture?
What was your grain bill?
What yeast did you pitch?

So many questions.

 

[zgja2]

Also a picture would be helpful. Did you bottle or keg?

I am curious to find the issue to this. I just brewed a sour saison with 40% wheat and it is crystal clear after 2 weeks in the keg.

 

[ArthurDigbySellers]

I'm with ptownbmac - it sounds like you inoculated before you really mashed anything. You need to perform a normal mash and then pitch your bugs to inoculate your wort. You can inoculate the mash itself (sour mash) or you can drain first and then inoculate (sour kettle) but either way you need to mash first.

It sounds like you did perform a normal mash after the 12 hour souring/protein rest so I guess it is possible you still extracted enough sugars for fermentation to take place. I honestly don't know the repercussions of bringing the mash PH down with lacto BEFORE mashing but it sounds like you will have an interesting beer in the end. As long as it doesn't smell like vomit or baby diapers I would let it ride and see what you get.

 

[zgja2]

Yea, if that is the case I am not sure of the result but it cant be good.

 

[Eichler]

Did you sour mash (pre-boil) or kettle sour (post boil)? Or maybe you didn't boil at all.
Sounds like you inoculated before the mash had even happened.
Did you inoculate with uncrushed grain or pure culture?
What was your grain bill?
What yeast did you pitch?

So many questions.

1) I soured the mash and boiled after mash was complete. I learn now that was not the right method. Mash to ~158F then cool to ~110F inoculate, hold temp, and then boil?
2) I boiled after ph hit 4.2
3) Pure culture
4) Bill:

• 8 lbs. Pilsner, Weyermann
• 12 oz. Munich I
• 12 oz Pale Wheat Malt

5) WLP566 Belgian Saison II

 

[Eichler]

I'm with ptownbmac - it sounds like you inoculated before you really mashed anything. You need to perform a normal mash and then pitch your bugs to inoculate your wort. You can inoculate the mash itself (sour mash) or you can drain first and then inoculate (sour kettle) but either way you need to mash first.

It sounds like you did perform a normal mash after the 12 hour souring/protein rest so I guess it is possible you still extracted enough sugars for fermentation to take place. I honestly don't know the repercussions of bringing the mash PH down with lacto BEFORE mashing but it sounds like you will have an interesting beer in the end. As long as it doesn't smell like vomit or baby diapers I would let it ride and see what you get.

Yes, I inoculated before I did a full mashed. After adding my lacto, I held at 113F for 14hrs until it hit 4.2 and then I performed my mash schedule with rests.

Oh, I should add that the ferment was fast and not especially vigorous. Solid 3" krausen and then faded.

As for smell/taste there's no butryic vomit awfulness. Actually, the tartness is good, there's definitely some small amount of alcohol (~4%), but the body is all off. It's like watered down oatmeal. Vaguely slimy.

 

[ptownbmac]

Yeah, I imagine that the low ph threw off your mash and sugar extraction. Did you take an original gravity reading?

If you pitched lacto before mashing there probably wasn't much for the lacto to convert anyway.

What you described is one way to do it: normal mash, cool, sour and then boil.

 

[Eichler]

Yeah, I imagine that the low ph threw off your mash and sugar extraction. Did you take an original gravity reading?

If you pitched lacto before mashing there probably wasn't much for the lacto to convert anyway.

What you described is one way to do it: normal mash, cool, sour and then boil.

OG was 1.041

You'd be surprised. Warm, wet grains and bacteria will make a way. "Lacto don't give a f---" is my motto for yogurt, kefir, cheeses. Yeast is a lot more delicate and picky than lacto, as brewers and bakers all know too well.

Thanks for your help. Going to dump the old batch. I think there's a lot of tannins and proteins that were broken down by the acid. It's just fugly.

On second attempt now and all is well. Running clear wort at the moment. Will cool, pitch, and let bugs ride until I hit my target ph.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Yeah, I imagine that the low ph threw off your mash and sugar extraction. Did you take an original gravity reading?

If you pitched lacto before mashing there probably wasn't much for the lacto to convert anyway.

What you described is one way to do it: normal mash, cool, sour and then boil.

Lacto can convert starches...so I'm not sure they had an issue. I'd be more concerned about mash ph