Kegging Question

[scoundrel]

Um... Not to be a dick, but wtf?

You carb beer by volumes of co2, not by time at psi. In the same container, at the same pressure, and the same temperature, it will take less time to force 2.5 volumes of gas into 2 gallons of liquid than it will to force 2.5 volumes of gas into 5 gallons.

Sheesh, that seems like common sense.

Obviously smaller amounts of beer will carb faster than larger amounts. Why would you tell him he has to leave it for the same amount of time?

Think it through, bro.....

I'm sure you meant well, but the advice you gave just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of how the process actually works....

About a 9 on the tension scale there subliminalurge and thank you daksin. Pounds per square inch is pounds per square inch all day long and a 5 gallon keg is a five gallon keg all day long. Reducing the amount of liquid creates more head space but unless you turn it on its side the surface area is the same. The CO2 will get absorbed once the head space is filled at a consistent rate based on the temp and pressure. The temp and pressure dictate the volumes achieved once equilibrium is met. Anyway if I'm wrong, I have no problem being corrected, as long as its constructive and I learn from it. It's not worth a pi$$ing match. This has been "my" experience and so far so good.

I hope my information is helpful jmadway. Worst case if you do over carb. Remove the gas and bleed the head space every so often until it gets to the level you want, then add the gas back and it should be fine. The suggestions to increase the line length is good info too. Good luck

 

[MikeYoung]

Speaking of drinking games... A tavern I visited from time to time, long ago, had a steel hoop, donut size, hung from the ceiling on a string. The idea was to swing the hoop in such a way that it would snag and stay on a teacup hook screwed into the wainscoting. You've probably seen similar. Anyway... Some would toss it like a dart or horseshoe; others would heave or shove it at various speeds along the arc of the string. The surest way, though, since the string was just long enough to reach the hook, was to lift the hoop to the right height, tension it just so, and let nature take its course.

The analogy isn't exact, but it has meaning here. To carbonate beer, set up the conditions for success and let nature take its course. Those conditions are very clearly spelled out in the carbonation tables. Everything else is a hit or miss heave and shove.

 

[billtzk]

My beer line is 5 feet, frig temp is 36*. Took my serving pressure down to 5psi for the day and that seemed to do the trick when I poured a pint this eve.

If I leave the pressure that low will I get flat beer eventually? Should I lengthen my beer line and up the pressure back to 10-12psi?

Yes, eventually it would get flat at 5 psi and 36 degrees, but if it's overcarbed, it would take a while. You might finish drinking it first. Doing what you did, reducing the serving pressure to make the pour, is a common way of dealing with overcarbed beer or short lines.

You should lengthen the line, but the amount will depend on your temperature and the volumes of CO2 you want to serve at. If you want around 2.5 volumes at 36 degrees, 10 or 11 PSI would do the trick. The longer line would help you control the foam at the tap. It slows down the pour considerably. I'd try 11 feet of line, and if that is too slow for your tastes, chop off a foot.

There are some threads in the kegging subforum that go into a lot of detail on how to balance your system. The mathematical approach some people use can make your head hurt. It's usually easier to just start with a beer line that you know is long enough, then shorten it until you get the pour you want.

 

[jmadway]

Let me first of all say that the spirit of every response I've received in the short time I have frequented HB Talk has been one of helpfulness. So while I do not know enough about the rudiments of proper co2 usage to know who is right and who is wrong in this type of thing, I do sincerely appreciate every piece of advice that I have gotten here. So, thank you, scoundrel, for giving me your best piece of advice, and subliminalurge, I appreciate that you have a different opinion, but no need to insult anyone here. Simply say you disagree, right?

So, it sounds like I should absolutely get an 11 ft. beer line. Check. And that I absolutely need to familiarize myself with carbonation tables. Will do. But, just so I'm clear on the basics...

- I have two 3-gallon kegs that when I brew a 5-gallon batch I split into my two kegs, ending up with 2.5 gallons in each 3-gallon keg.

- I have the capacity to chill both kegs down to 36 degrees, but my kegerator can only fit one keg at a time, and I have only 1 co2 tank.

- Sounds like not everyone agrees that 30 psi force carbing for 2.5 days is the way to go. I'm still not sure if this is because of the smaller kegs I have or if people just disagree about the best way to carbonate. If you think lower pressure carbonation for a longer period of time is a better way to go about it, please give me your 2-cents.

Thanks again for all the time that people have given to answer my original question. I've learned a ton already and look forward to getting more (and sometimes differing) opinions.

 

[scoundrel]

- Sounds like not everyone agrees that 30 psi force carbing for 2.5 days is the way to go. I'm still not sure if this is because of the smaller kegs I have or if people just disagree about the best way to carbonate. If you think lower pressure carbonation for a longer period of time is a better way to go about it, please give me your 2-cents.

How you achieve the level of carbonation is really up to you and your process. I don't think either way is better. It's just what works for your setup.

Here's my setup as an example. I have 4 kegs cold in my fridge and room for 2 more. So until I run out of room, I'll just put them in the fridge at 12-14psi and let it go for 2 weeks. Occasionally, I'll need a beer carbonated quicker. In that situation, I'll put it in my fridge, wait for it to chill then add it to my 5lb tank for 2+ days at 30psi. If I go beyond 6 filled kegs, I'll carb them with the same 5lb tank at room temp at 30psi for 2 weeks+.

You're in the same bind I was in. The only way I see that you can carb your warm and cold beer at the same time is to either add a second regulator or get a second tank w/ regulator. Additionally you could use the method discussed earlier where you gas the warm keg daily and check with a pressure tester. But IMO if you spend $25 on a tester, you're halfway to a second regulator. My main tank is a 20lb, so for me it made sense to get a 5lb tank for parties and for cellaring my warm kegs.

Bottom line is each method has advantages and disadvantages. High pressure cold carbing is faster but you run the risk of over carbing. Low pressure cold carbing reduces over carbing risk, but you have to wait. So, think about things like... Can I wait to serve my beer? How quick do I go through a batch? Come up with a plan that works for you.

 

[MikeYoung]

The quick way to carbonate beer is to shake it, not over-pressurize it. The concept is similar to aerating wort to adsorb oxygen. Agitating the liquid exposes more liquid surface to the gas, and helps it propagate through the solution faster. Shaking the beer, short of excessive foaming, does not harm it in any way and carbonates the beer quickly, thoroughly, and evenly. The control points are CO2 pressure and liquid temperature. Read these from the carbonation chart. The beer is carbonated when it no longer takes gas. Once the beer is carbonated, it can be taken off the gas line, and the sealed keg can be treated as you would any closed container of beer (can or bottle).

 

[billtzk]

- I have the capacity to chill both kegs down to 36 degrees, but my kegerator can only fit one keg at a time, and I have only 1 co2 tank.

How are you chilling the second keg? In a refrigerator that is separate from your kegerator? Assuming that, if they are next to each other, you could put a 2-way distributor in the kegerator and run a line out from it to your refrigerator. Of course, you'd have to drill holes in both and mount bulkhead flare adapters to connect the gas line too. Not hard to do, just be careful where you drill.

These are distributors, the two-way is the first one on the page. The fittings shown on the check values are MFL type. You can also get nipples. I prefer the flare fittings. Your gas line from the CO2 tank goes to the input nipple on the side of the distributor. Then you connect a gas line to each keg from a check valve. Of course, with the bulkhead fiittings, the line to the other refrigerator would be in three sections.

Results for *Components:Air Distributors

These are bulkhead flare adapters. This one is 4 inches long, should be long enough to go through a refrigerator wall. There's also a shorter one.

MFL Bulkhead Adapter / Shank - 4 Long [MFL BHdAdptr 4 - 04C03287IH] : The CHI Company, New and used beverage equipment for Homebrewing, Home winemaking, Soda systems and used Pepsi vending equipment

- Sounds like not everyone agrees that 30 psi force carbing for 2.5 days is the way to go. I'm still not sure if this is because of the smaller kegs I have or if people just disagree about the best way to carbonate. If you think lower pressure carbonation for a longer period of time is a better way to go about it, please give me your 2-cents.

People just disagree. It's a matter of preference, as scoundrel said. I have an 8 tap keezer with room for 9 full size 5 gallon kegs and two 3 gallon kegs. It's easy for me to go the slow, set-it-and-forget-it route, and it's a foolproof method. At first, before I got a good rotation going, I tried the shaking method and the high pressure short duration carbing method, and ended up overcarbing my beer. If I'd have worked at it, I'm sure I could have got it right, but it was just too easy to take advantage of my spacious keezer and not have any worries.

 

[jmadway]

Just kegged my latest batch - siphoned beer in, closed keg, applied CO2, then shook gently for a moment or two to get things going. 15 minutes later, I realized I had forgotten to purge the keg of oxygen after I closed it and before I shook things up. I'm fearing I made a big mistake and that I just shook a bunch of oxygen into my new brew. Or, should I not worry because the amount of O2 in the headspace at the top of the keg after I pressurized is minimal?

 

[Brulosopher]

Just kegged my latest batch - siphoned beer in, closed keg, applied CO2, then shook gently for a moment or two to get things going. 15 minutes later, I realized I had forgotten to purge the keg of oxygen after I closed it and before I shook things up. I'm fearing I made a big mistake and that I just shook a bunch of oxygen into my new brew. Or, should I not worry because the amount of O2 in the headspace at the top of the keg after I pressurized is minimal?

Not ideal, but your beer will be fine. Cheers!

 

[jmadway]

Ok, thanks. I appreciate your reassuring words!

 

[Brewnoob1]

So, just reiterating for those who aren't capable of chilling or even carbing up multiple kegs, it's A-OK to purge the keg of o2, then letting it sit for X number of weeks/months with no ill effects while the other kegs are being consumed. The one not hooked up or being chilled is just aging correct?

 

[scoundrel]

So, just reiterating for those who aren't capable of chilling or even carbing up multiple kegs, it's A-OK to purge the keg of o2, then letting it sit for X number of weeks/months with no ill effects while the other kegs are being consumed. The one not hooked up or being chilled is just aging correct?

Well yes and no. Yes, since the initial blast of CO2 will create a barrier to protect the beer, but if the beer can absorb the CO2, it will. So you need to gas it daily so the beer can reach the point where it can no longer absorb CO2 and hold the pressure. For me, a blast @ 30psi at 68 degrees, over a couple of weeks does the trick. Then I let it sit and check it every month.

If you don't the keg will lose pressure and "may" introduce oxygen if the seal is lost. That's where a handy pressure guage comes into play. You can check the pressure and give it a quick blast if necessary.

 

[copyright1997]

Just kegged my latest batch - siphoned beer in, closed keg, applied CO2, then shook gently for a moment or two to get things going. 15 minutes later, I realized I had forgotten to purge the keg of oxygen after I closed it and before I shook things up. I'm fearing I made a big mistake and that I just shook a bunch of oxygen into my new brew. Or, should I not worry because the amount of O2 in the headspace at the top of the keg after I pressurized is minimal?

by now the oxygen has mostly moved out of the beer and is in the headspace. Purge and apply new co2 a couple of times, and don't worry.

 

[Brewnoob1]

I personally don't think mine will make it to a few weeks to months. I seem to drink it too fast between friends, parties, and myself haha. I just gas/purge/gas/purge/gas/purge/gas...and let it sit. I just checked it after about a week and pulled the release valve and it still vents off. So, for now, I think the seal is just fine on mine and should last. Thanks for the info. I'll hit it with some CO2 if I go much longer than a week or 2 to double check.

 

[scoundrel]

I personally don't think mine will make it to a few weeks to months. I seem to drink it too fast between friends, parties, and myself haha. I just gas/purge/gas/purge/gas/purge/gas...and let it sit. I just checked it after about a week and pulled the release valve and it still vents off. So, for now, I think the seal is just fine on mine and should last. Thanks for the info. I'll hit it with some CO2 if I go much longer than a week or 2 to double check.

Perfect! You only really need a seal. The biggest advantage to getting it to 30 psi is that when you chill it down, you're good to go, but its not required. All of this stuff is about what works best for you. It sounds like you have it sorted out for your setup.