Keep Striking Out on Hop Flavor and Aroma

[d_striker]

I've tried everything with my IPA's to maximize hop flavor and aroma. I'm not sure what the issue is at this point. It seems like no matter how many hops I throw at a batch, both late additions and dry hop, I just don't achieve what I'm striving for. While the different IPA's I've brewed in the past year have been slightly different, they all follow a simple grain bill with little crystal malt.

I brew all grain and use RODI water with additions. I've read everything I could get my hands on regarding sulfate/chloride ratios and have played with this on multiple batches.....No difference.

I've thrown up to a pound of late addition hops at 6 gallon batches.

I've played around with chilling wort down to 180-190 at flameout and whirlpooling for 15-20 mins. I've also tried just chilling right at flameout down to 70*F.

I've keg hopped a couple different IPA's with whole leaf hops.

I always cold crash to drop yeast out before multiple dry hop additions in secondary. I primarily use WLP090 and WLP001 for all of my IPA's.

There is the question about how fresh my hops are. There's no way of telling what vintage the HopUnion pellets I get are, but they smell fresh and hoppy. I also buy a lot of hops from Puterberg farms (hopsdirect.com) after the harvest so I know these are fresh. I have used different combinations of Cascade, Centennial, Amarillo, Columbus, Nugget, and Summit for my IPA's.

I'm about ready to throw in the towel in trying to get that fresh flavor and aroma.

 

[duboman]

Preface:not trying to be an a$$...

Sounds like you've done everything in the book and even with a pound of hops in a 6 gallon batch??

Are you sure you can smell.....?

 

[scubasteve03]

Have you tried first wort hopping? Why I have read omit is that it provides a bit of bitterness and maintains hop flavor.

 

[Yooper]

When you have additions to your water, can you give as an example of what you're adding? That would really help pinpoint the issues.

 

[Soldevi]

What do others say about your IPAs? Maybe you're getting to the point where you think its not enough but you just can't get more. Kinda like IBUs.

 

[grathan]

+1 fwh and also mash hops.

Post a recipe of one of your attempts at hop flavor/aroma. Also you must be comparing to comercial examples... Which ones?

 

[d_striker]

Preface:not trying to be an a$$...

Sounds like you've done everything in the book and even with a pound of hops in a 6 gallon batch??

Are you sure you can smell.....?

Yeah...Personally, I think I have a very good palate. I was a sommelier a few years back and can commonly detect and identify flavors that many others can't.

 

[d_striker]

Have you tried first wort hopping? Why I have read omit is that it provides a bit of bitterness and maintains hop flavor.

I forgot to mention in my OP that I tried FWH on one batch. I knew I was leaving something out!

 

[d_striker]

When you have additions to your water, can you give as an example of what you're adding? That would really help pinpoint the issues.

First line is mash water profile. Second line is mash+sparge profile.

Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl EA RA
139 30 13 405 44 27 -90
116 22 7 306 50

Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl EA RA
169 13 12 131 111 119 -9
122 13 13 134 91

Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl EA RA
160 19 0 271 144 0 -126
194 17 14 274 125

Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl EA RA
157 18 0 265 141 -14 -136
190 16 14 268 122

 

[d_striker]

+1 fwh and also mash hops.

Post a recipe of one of your attempts at hop flavor/aroma. Also you must be comparing to comercial examples... Which ones?

Pliny the Elder is the goal for aroma and flavor but would settle for Lagunitas levels.


Grain Bill Wt. SRM GU GU %
Pale Malt (2 Row) Rahr 13.00 2 36 59 89.7%
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L 0.50 40 34 2 3.4%
Cara-Pils/Dextrine 1.00 2 33 4 6.9%




Hop Variety AA % Wt. Time
Columbus 13.9 2.00 FWH
Columbus 13.9 1.00 45
Simcoe (L) 14.1 1.00 30
Columbus 11.3 1.00 20
Cascade 7.4 2.00 20
Columbus 11.3 1.00 15
Cascade 7.4 1.00 15
Columbus 11.3 1.00 10
Cascade 7.4 1.00 10
Columbus 11.3 1.00 7
Cascade 7.4 2.00 7
Columbus 11.3 2.00 0
Cascade 7.4 2.00 0

Dryhop #1: 12 days total
1oz Cascade
1oz Columbus

Dryhop #2: 3 days to go in dryhop
1oz Cascade

 

[grathan]

I'll be alone in saying this, but Pliny is an awful recipe though I have never had the original. I am not too familiar with lagunitas either. Do you mean like maximus, or little sumpin?

Are the 0 minute additions cascade dry hops?

Columbus flavor to me doesnt seem distinct. But you do seem to have a lot of cascade additions.

Perhaps its so bitter that your flavor hops have gotten buried? Ever try hopbursting without bittering such as Jamils evil twin?

 

[d_striker]

What do others say about your IPAs? Maybe you're getting to the point where you think its not enough but you just can't get more. Kinda like IBUs.

Others like it and it's good beer, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't have the hop flavor and aroma that I'm striving for.

 

[d_striker]

I'll be alone in saying this, but Pliny is an awful recipe though I have never had the original. I am not too familiar with lagunitas either. Do you mean like maximus, or little sumpin?

Are the 0 minute additions cascade dry hops?

Columbus flavor to me doesnt seem distinct. But you do seem to have a lot if cascade additions.

Perhaps its so bitter that your flavor hops have gotten buried?

I've had PTE on tap that was BURSTING with hop flavor and aroma and have also had it where it was minimal. I think it may have had to do with the freshness of the keg.

The 0 minute additions are flameout hops. I've used quite a few different hop combinations. The most recent was Amarillo and Centennial.

I'm referring to this Lagunitas IPA.

 

[Yooper]

First line is mash water profile. Second line is mash+sparge profile.

Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl EA RA
139 30 13 405 44 27 -90
116 22 7 306 50

Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl EA RA
169 13 12 131 111 119 -9
122 13 13 134 91

Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl EA RA
160 19 0 271 144 0 -126
194 17 14 274 125

Ca Mg Na SO4 Cl EA RA
157 18 0 265 141 -14 -136
190 16 14 268 122

The first one is a good APA or IPA profile. The others, no, not so much. The last two are especially poor- never go over 100 ppm of Cl!

Still, the first water profile seems ok. Any mash pH readings?

 

[Yooper]

One other thought- how fresh are your beers when you're drinking them? I'm drinking a hoppy pale ale right now that I brewed on 8/5. It's good, but I know the hops (especially from the late hops and dryhops) will fade quickly.

I dryhop for about 5 days, then keg.

 

[grathan]

So no dry hops?

 

[d_striker]

The first one is a good APA or IPA profile. The others, no, not so much. The last two are especially poor- never go over 100 ppm of Cl!

Still, the first water profile seems ok. Any mash pH readings?

Thanks Yooper. The mash pH for those 4 batches were all around 5.5

 

[d_striker]

One other thought- how fresh are your beers when you're drinking them? I'm drinking a hoppy pale ale right now that I brewed on 8/5. It's good, but I know the hops (especially from the late hops and dryhops) will fade quickly.

I dryhop for about 5 days, then keg.

How quick is quick? Maybe I'm dryhopping so long that my late flavor/aroma additions have already faded?

 

[Yooper]

Thanks Yooper. The mash pH for those 4 batches were all around 5.5

I've noticed that my hops are "brighter" using a profile like #1, and having a mash pH more like 5.35 at room temperature.

It's possible that you're dryhopping longer than necessary, and some of the hops aroma is fading before you package the beer.

I'd try going 5-7 days with dryhopping, and using plenty of hops and packaging directly after dryhopping.

Your yeast strains seem fine- but you could perhaps try a strain known to "enhance hops", like WLP001 and make sure to ferment on the cool side of the optimum range. I ferment IPAs with WLP001 at 65 degrees, with great results.

 

[Soldevi]

Have you tried moving the 20-30 minute additions forward? You have 4oz of hops there. I understand you would have to adjust your bittering. Or do you think the beer would suffer? I have heard that 30 min additions don't do much for flavor or aroma.

I've been using Acidmalt to lower my pH. Usually its around 5.1.

 

[d_striker]

I've noticed that my hops are "brighter" using a profile like #1, and having a mash pH more like 5.35 at room temperature.

It's possible that you're dryhopping longer than necessary, and some of the hops aroma is fading before you package the beer.

I'd try going 5-7 days with dryhopping, and using plenty of hops and packaging directly after dryhopping.

Your yeast strains seem fine- but you could perhaps try a strain known to "enhance hops", like WLP001 and make sure to ferment on the cool side of the optimum range. I ferment IPAs with WLP001 at 65 degrees, with great results.

Oops. I misspoke when I said WLP005. I meant WLP001-Chico. I always think of "5" from S-05 and WY1056

Thanks for the advice. I'll try your pointers next time.

 

[Dawgs47]

I've only used WLP 90 once, so I don't know about it, but WLP 005 is an english yeast that will mute the hop flavor. Go with Cal Ale if you want to push the hop flavor. My guess is the hop flavor you are looking for is different than the hops you are using. Don't bother with FWH hopping as it is more of a bittering addition. Keep as much as you can at or after flame out. For me Cascade adds that IPA flavor, but you may want something else. Try a Nelson Sauvin IPA. 1.5 ozs of Magnum at 60 and 1 oz of Nelson at 5, 1 oz of Nelson at flame out, dry hop 1 oz Nelson for 7 days, and then keg hop 1 oz Nelson. If you are not O.D.'ed on Grapefruit by then something is seriously wrong.

 

[GrogNerd]

I'm having the same problems with my IPA, a Devil's Backbone 8 Point clone. 5 oz of hops, 50 IBU and I get no hop aroma or flavor.

2nd time I've brewed this recipe.

the brewer posted what grains he used in a blog posting here, but not the exact percentages. he did post his hop schedule, which I followed as close as I could. I talked to one of the brewers, he said they added Cluster, which I added to the 2nd try.

I used straight-up Deer Park spring water the first batch, 2nd batch added Burton salts

I only bottled this past Saturday, tried one tonight and was very malty, but with some bitterness. like a malty pale ale

 

[d_striker]

I've only used WLP 90 once, so I don't know about it, but WLP 005 is an english yeast that will mute the hop flavor. Go with Cal Ale if you want to push the hop flavor. My guess is the hop flavor you are looking for is different than the hops you are using. Don't bother with FWH hopping as it is more of a bittering addition. Keep as much as you can at or after flame out. For me Cascade adds that IPA flavor, but you may want something else. Try a Nelson Sauvin IPA. 1.5 ozs of Magnum at 60 and 1 oz of Nelson at 5, 1 oz of Nelson at flame out, dry hop 1 oz Nelson for 7 days, and then keg hop 1 oz Nelson. If you are not O.D.'ed on Grapefruit by then something is seriously wrong.

I misspoke when I typed wlp005. See post above yours.

I find WLP090 to be similar to Chico but it floculates better.

I like the sound of a Nelson IPA. I have about 5oz in the freezer but haven't tried this hop yet.

 

[samuryan]

Any truth to altitude gives less hop utilization?

 

[d_striker]

Any truth to altitude gives less hop utilization?

I've never heard that one.

It's true that water boils at a lower temperature the higher one is. Water boils at 202F at my house.

I don't think a few degrees is anything that would degrade hop utilization.

 

[duboman]

For the next beer I would use Yooper's water profile recommendation, cut back on some of the bitter additions or move them more forward and concetrate on more late additions. For the dry hop, I will typically use 3oz and go for 5-7 days total and then package when everything is nice and fresh. I noticed in the recipe you posted you had a total of 15 days of dry hop and that to me seems really unnecessary. Studies have been shown that shorter duration yields more aroma.

 

[duboman]

Here is the Article/Study/Thesis:
http://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1957/34093/Wolfe_thesis.pdf

and Another:
https://www.google.com/search?q=oregon+state+dry+hop+study&oq=oregon+state+dry+hop+study&aqs=chrome..69i57.11248j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[d_striker]

For the next beer I would use Yooper's water profile recommendation, cut back on some of the bitter additions or move them more forward and concetrate on more late additions. For the dry hop, I will typically use 3oz and go for 5-7 days total and then package when everything is nice and fresh. I noticed in the recipe you posted you had a total of 15 days of dry hop and that to me seems really unnecessary. Studies have been shown that shorter duration yields more aroma.

That recipe was 12 days total dry hop. The second addition was added with 3 days to go in the first dry hop addition.

 

[d_striker]

How much trub and hops do you guys let into your fermenter?

I transfer virtually no trub and hops from the boil into the carboy.

 

[duboman]

How much trub and hops do you guys let into your fermenter?

I transfer virtually no trub and hops from the boil into the carboy.

Misread the dry hop timing....

The only thing for me that gets in primary is cold break, ibises CFC and hop spider.

 

[Yooper]

I don't strain my wort much at all. I do strain out leaf hops via a bazooka tube (or use a bag) because they will clog up my diptube and pump. I have a CFC, so I can't strain out cold break or pellet hops or hot break. I try not to transfer much "sludge" but I don't worry about it if lots gets in there. It settles out with the trub.

My beers typically spend 10-14 days in the fermenter, with any dryhops added about 5-7 days before packaging (and after the beer clears).