Just started and want to talk

[PhxBrewer]

Hello all from sunny Phoenix, AZ!

I've been a huge fan of ciders for many years, and just recently decided to try my hand at making some. My favorite cider of all time was K Draft Cider from England, but apparently they have decided to quit making it And if I can end up with something similar or better I will be as pleased as can be.

I started out here with (3) 1/2 gallon growlers, each using a different yeast, and using store bought pasteurized (but otherwise all-natural) apple cider to which I added 1 cup of plain white sugar. They've been fermenting for only 2 days, but I think things are progressing nicely.

I read as many articles as I could find on the subject, and have been perusing this site for tips. So far so good, but I do have a few questions. First, let me outline my plan for this batch and I'll go from there:

Buy supplies, yeast, and juice. Sterilize all equipment.
Heat juice (not boil) to kill natural bacteria, and add a bit of sugar while warm
Start up the yeast, cool off the juice, pour into fermenters and pitch the yeast
Allow to ferment from OG (1.070) to roughly 1.002-1.006 (dry-ish)
Rack and give a few days
Add a little priming sugar, cap, short delay, then refrigerate (crash)

That's my plan, and the reason for it is this: I want a relatively dry cider, but not VERY dry, so I think 1.002-1.006ish should accomplish that. I also want a carbonated cider, but do not want to shatter the bottle. If I ferment it to "relatively" dry, then prime and cap it, it should generate sufficient CO2 pressure, then if I "crash" it in the fridge, it should kill the yeast, preventing over-pressurization/shattering.

Any thoughts on this? Seems good/bad? Advice?

Thanks in advance!!

 

[PiecefulToker]

Welcome to Homebrewtalk! I am a relative newbie to cider making myself, but I should be able to answer some of your questions. Also, all this has been discussed before if you search the forum. Also, check out the "Apfelwein" threads in the "Wine" forum... there are literally hundreds of pages of info on fermenting store bought juice with sugar.

"I started out here with (3) 1/2 gallon growlers, each using a different yeast, and using store bought pasteurized (but otherwise all-natural) apple cider to which I added 1 cup of plain white sugar."

What kinds of yeast did you use? If dry, did you rehydrate? Cane sugar is fine to use if you just want to bump up the alcohol, but it might make your cider seem a little thin. I like my cider fine without any added sugar, but you might want to experiment with other fermentables (brown sugar, honey, molasses, turbinado, etc.)

"Heat juice (not boil) to kill natural bacteria, and add a bit of sugar while warm"

If the juice is store-bought and pasteurized, you don't have to worry about killing any bacteria. Make sure you buy preservative free juice (i.e. potassium sorbate), though vitamin c or ascorbic acid is ok. It might take a little more work to get the sugar dissolved, but it is way less work than heating/cooling the must.

"I want a relatively dry cider, but not VERY dry, so I think 1.002-1.006ish should accomplish that. I also want a carbonated cider, but do not want to shatter the bottle. If I ferment it to "relatively" dry, then prime and cap it, it should generate sufficient CO2 pressure, then if I "crash" it in the fridge, it should kill the yeast, preventing over-pressurization/shattering."

Yes it is possible to do that, but understand that it is risky. There are several threads about ways around this, including "dishwasher pasteurization", using non-fermentable sweeteners (i.e. lactose, Splenda, Stevia), etc.

I like Nottingham a lot... I just take a gallon jug, pour in my cider and a half packet of Notty, shake it up, and let 'er roll. When it gets down to about 1.015-1.020, I throw it in the fridge overnight then rack off the yeast, and keep the jug in the fridge. You can bottle it from there or just drink it straight out of the jug, from pitching the yeast to the glass can be as short as a week with some darn good cider. Just make sure you use good quality juice/cider.

Good luck, hope this helps.

 

[CandleWineProject]

Add a little priming sugar, cap, short delay, then refrigerate (crash)

I'm a tad confused - why "crash" at the end? I mean, chilling does not kill yeast, it only makes it go dormant. If you were cold crashing (racking after chilling), then I would understand. However, at this point, it should be drink ready, so the word "crash" is messing with me.

 

[mordantly]

welcome!

"you wonna talk? let's talk. i'm a sucker for good conversation" - Stallone, Cobra

heat, and really high alcohol levels kill yeasties.

 

[PiecefulToker]

What they said... cold crashing will not kill yeast, only make it dormant. If those bottles with residual sugar come out of the fridge and warm up, the yeast will wake up and you could make bottle bombs.

It would be a a much better idea to cold crash in the jug, then rack, then bottle. Read this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experiments-83060/

and this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/man-i-love-apfelwein-14860/

 

[inigomontoya]

Woot, another cider fin in Phx, I am going to be trying to make my own cider here shortly. I am also a fan of carbonated ciders.

If you like the dry english ones, look around at BevMo and Total Wine, they have started carrying Magners cider (Irish cider) in 20 oz bottles. Great stuff, got addicted to it on a trip to Ireland. It is quite a bit like Strongbow, but a touch sweeter.

 

[PhxBrewer]

Woot, another cider fin in Phx, I am going to be trying to make my own cider here shortly. I am also a fan of carbonated ciders.

If you like the dry english ones, look around at BevMo and Total Wine, they have started carrying Magners cider (Irish cider) in 20 oz bottles. Great stuff, got addicted to it on a trip to Ireland. It is quite a bit like Strongbow, but a touch sweeter.

Nice!! Have you been up to Hops & Tannins in Anthem? Nice place.

I went to a BevMo, and they've got a lot of stuff, but they are WAY too pricy. $8-9 for a 6-pack of cider, no thanks! I've had Magners before, it's pretty good I'll admit!! I'll have to look up this Total Wine place, though, thanks for the tip.

-- --

Otherwise, thanks all for the replies
I did do some more reading around and I see that I was a bit mistaken, and now that I've got the first couple batches down it's going a lot more smoothly, but I, of course, have new questions to look up.

I started with (1) Montrachet batch, (1) EC-1118 batch, and (1) Pasteur Champagne batch. They fermented at 70F. I refrigerated the Montrachet batch after 6 days (1.012), it appeared to be done fermenting, while the others were still going. I checked Fg on the other 2 at 10 days and they were both under 1.000, and were a bit too sour-tasting for my liking. I decided not to bottle it, and just drink it out of the jug for now.

I found the Montrachet to have the best taste, and it was still somewhat carbonated. The EC-1118 and Pasteur batches had very little carbonation to them. The problem, however, is this: The Montrachet batch had a definite slight yeasty aftertaste, where the other batches did not. I would think it is possible to stop the fermentation "early" (ca. 1.010-1.012) for residual sweetness, but how can I avoid the yeasty flavor that comes with stopping it early, hence having live yeast remain?? I did rack it before cooling, left it in the fridge, and racked again the next night. Did I simply not wait long enough before drinking? Or something else?

Also worthy of note, the cider is definitely NOT clear, they are all quite opaque/SLIGHTLY-translucent. Even those batches that went all the way to 0.996 (and a calculated 10.4% abv!!!). I've also started a few new batches without heating them, thinking that may have been the problem, but the results are the same so far. Not that I mind the color at all, but my thoughts are that it may be related to some other thing amiss.

Well, I don't mean to write a book so I'll leave it at that for now. Thanks again!



CLIFF NOTES:
I liked a Montrachet batch I "crashed" at 1.012 but I tasted yeasty aftertaste- how to stop fermentation early, leaving residual sugar but not yeast flavor? Will not be bottling, no worries about bombs.

 

[inigomontoya]

I have not been to the place in anthem, I live in the south east valley so the only time I go to anthem is to head up further north. BevoMo did have the magners, the only other place I have seen it at is at LeeLee's oriental market in Chandler (might be a drive depending on where you are) but the cost was .30 a bottle compared to BevMo.

Total wine is great for a beer and wine nut, not too many ciders however. But the prices are much, much better on wine and hard alcohol.

 

[BaronIV]

What they said... cold crashing will not kill yeast, only make it dormant. If those bottles with residual sugar come out of the fridge and warm up, the yeast will wake up and you could make bottle bombs.

It would be a a much better idea to cold crash in the jug, then rack, then bottle. Read this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experiments-83060/

and this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/man-i-love-apfelwein-14860/

minor correction on the crashing... you rack first, cold crash, then rack again. if you dont rack THEN crash you could end up with some yeast still in there.

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

I would just like to say that ciders really do improve with time that allows them to clear. (Around 1 to two months), and then clear some more, around another two months but I just call that ageing.
Then I bottle and try to forget about them for around 6 more months. I do this by attempting to keep a very full pipeline that usually is bottlenecked by me not having enough bottles and storage space.
I have lately had very good results with using S-04 ale yeast in making ciders. It usually takes around 3 weeks to finish fermenting, then I crash chill it, rack, age for around another 3 weeks to a month, crash chill it again and rack it to a keg for longer storage. (I don't have to worry about the air lock going dry etc).
From there I either serve from the keg, or bottle.

 

[PhxBrewer]

Hmm, my batches in the fridge now have slowed fermenting, but they are definitely still going. When I open the bottles there is definitely some pressure in there!

 

[Kauai_Kahuna]

Usually ciders for me do a quick fermentation the first week, then slow down for another two weeks, then they really slow down but continue to ferment for another two to four weeks.
Once fermentation is done, you will see the cider starting to clear if you used clear store bought juice. You may find you need to drink this batch rather quickly to keep it from getting too carbed. But now you have learned how long it takes, and start multiple batches to file up the pipeline.