Issues with CO2 Loss - very odd/frustrating

[ArrogantDusty]

So I am having a very odd/specific problem. I have a 10lb CO2 tank that feeds into two kegs through this exact system: http://www.northernbrewer.com/draft-brewer-dual-keg-system-new-ball-lock-w-manifold

Obviously, a 10lb tank should last a long time on two kegs... However, I have had to refill it twice now. Both times, the tank was at basically the same level for a couple of weeks with no issue. I have used it to bottle with a CP filler and besides that, it has been sitting there, with the two kegs. No changes. After the first time I had to refill it, I checked all the connections with soapy water and all were sealed. However, this morning, I went to fill up a growler and the tank was empty. Just two days ago, it was still full and all the connections had been checked. I feel like I'm losing my mind. lol. This is also not the same tank as the fist (as it is a trade in type of place).
Any ideas?

Also, since I am having this issue (if I cant resolve it), once the kegs are to the right carb level, should I just turn off the gas and disconnect until I am ready to pour. That, instead of leaving the tank always at pouring pressure?

Thanks for any help.

 

[mredge73]

Also, since I am having this issue (if I cant resolve it), once the kegs are to the right carb level, should I just turn off the gas and disconnect until I am ready to pour. That, instead of leaving the tank always at pouring pressure?

This may help you identify the issue.
You could have a leak in one of the kegs and this exercise may help you find it.

I would get an extra pressure gauge, put it in the plug of your splitter and close your valves to the kegs. Pressurize the lines and turn off the CO2 tank. Check back in a bit and see if the pressure drops at the splitter, if so you have a leak somewhere between the tank and splitter.
For the kegs, buy new seals and use keg lube. You can do a similar test with empty kegs and an air compressor; rig a gauge to a QD, pressure it up and check back the next day.

Note that some kegs need high pressure to set the seal; when clearing the head space of O2 after transfer do so at high pressure 20-30psi.

 

[plazola86]

You have a leak somewhere, might not be the lines but the kegs themselves. Did you check the keg lid and air in (ball lock or pin) side of the keg? I use a 5 gallon C02 tank and also use 2 kegs. I force carb and pour about 5-6 kegs before I have to refill. You DONT turn off the gas or disconnect when your not using, your not adding more carbonation than the set pressure if you leave it connected.

 

[myntz]

What kind of seal are you using on your regulator>tank connection? I used to use those white plastic ones and kept having phantom leaks. Spent $2 on a permanent brass+oring seal for it and its been solid since.

 

[IslandLizard]

Sad to say, but obviously you have a leak somewhere.

First, always operate the tank with the valve all the way open. Do NOT just open it one turn. The valve stem packing needs to compress to form a seal, and only does that in the extreme position, fully open. So keep the tank valve all the way open or all the way closed.

Usually it's a keg seal somewhere but it can be anywhere in your system. Narrow it down by testing each subunit by itself.

Disconnect the gas from the kegs. Open up all little red handled valves. Set your regulator to 10-12 psi. Once you shut the tank valve, the pressure on the dial should remain at 10-12 psi for at least a day. If so, those parts are tight. Onto your kegs.

You can pressurize an empty keg to 10-12 psi and let it sit unhooked. It should retain that pressure forever, unless it leaks.

A fully carbonated keg with beer in it should retain its pressure also indefinitely.

I noticed one of my red handled shut off valves on the manifold was leaking a little when not exactly in one of it's 90° positions, or when touched. I replaced it. You can submerge pretty much anything under water, except the regulator.

Submerge your gas QDs in a container with water. They should not leak. There's a little lid (with the slit) in the top that can be unscrewed for cleaning. Make sure those are tight, there's a thin washer underneath making the seal with the QD body.

If the leak is substantial, and losing 10# over 2 days is, you should be able to find the problem easily.

Good luck!

 

[V-Fib]

I had the same issue and soapy water wouldn't find it. I submerge stuff under water to look for it also with no luck. Oddly I heard mine... it was weird. My issue was on the regulator where the hose barb and an gas on/off switch was. Just needed a 1/4 turn and done.

 

[ArrogantDusty]

You all are the best - thank you! I will be trying things under water this weekend and I'll also get permanent brass+oring - that sounds like a great idea. Thanks!

 

[kegger_maker]

I was surprised to find a leak in the check valve on one of those little red handled valves. I also only found it submerged.

 

[IslandLizard]

You all are the best - thank you! I will be trying things under water this weekend and I'll also get permanent brass+oring - that sounds like a great idea. Thanks!

I wonder how this panned out...

 

[Horseflesh]

The red handle valves are the worst. I have had a few leak. The style used on Taprite regs and manifolds seem much more reliable.

 

[Upthewazzu]

I had an infuriating leak that I never could find with soapy water, but someone on here suggested replacing the guts in my taprite regulator. Found the parts on Amazon for $15 and that solved the problem.

Also, I've had intermittent issues with the pressure release valve on my used kegs. My suggestion would be to buy replacements from a place like KegConnection just in case. They just unscrew off.

 

[Special Hops]

I typically close the CO2 valve at the tank when I go for a while between uses once I have the kegs carbed. I have had too many leaks over the years.

 

[IslandLizard]

The red handle valves are the worst. I have had a few leak. The style used on Taprite regs and manifolds seem much more reliable.

Not sure if they are the worst, but they are definitely rough and cheaply made. Took a leaky one apart, and damaged the "bottom" seat as I saw no way to remove the valve shaft without gouging the plastic seat. Catch 22.

Are you referring to these brass ones being the better kind?

 

[Horseflesh]

Are you referring to these brass ones being the better kind?

Yep, those are the ones! Trouble free so far.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yep, those are the ones! Trouble free so far.

It sounds like the best option, not too bad at around $8 a piece... unless you need 9 of them. They're on my list.

I'm keeping a close eye on the red handled ones for now. They seem to work fine in the 90° positions, with an ear next to them to confirm. There must be tens of thousands of those out in the field.

 

[ArrogantDusty]

I wonder how this panned out...

I am leak free!!!! The under water thing was amazing. I had TWO leaks. Both in my 2 way CO2 Distributor. One in the line going in and one in one of the two lines going out. Thanks again for all your help.

 

[IslandLizard]

I am leak free!!!! The under water thing was amazing. I had TWO leaks. Both in my 2 way CO2 Distributor. One in the line going in and one in one of the two lines going out. Thanks again for all your help.

Bravo !!!

One more thing.
I keep some kegs outside the keezer to condition/secondary at room temps. Usually they are (force) carbonated and pressurized but there's no gas permanently connected to them. I notice once in awhile a few gone flat because the gas poppet leaked a tiny bit, especially when the pressure is kept below 12psi.

After pressurizing and removing the QD, I now check with a spray bottle and a small Starsaned cloth that the poppet doesn't blow little bubbles. I've overhauled those questionable posts and poppets several times, but some seem to have a tendency to leak.

On the liquid side however, it's quite evident when there's a leak.

 

[doug293cz]

Something that hasn't been mentioned in any of the responses is that the high pressure gauge on your regulator is NOT an indicator of CO2 level. CO2 in the tank is a mixture of liquid and gas (in the headspace.) When you have both liquid and gas present, the pressure is a function of the temperature of the tank and contents, and nothing else. This means that if there is any liquid in the tank the pressure will be the same as for a full tank, and the pressure will vary with temperature. The pressure will not start to drop until all the liquid is gone, at which point the tank is pretty close to empty. This is why your tank seems to go empty without warning (whether you have leaks or not.)

Brew on