Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

Yakima 728
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We know they like to use Weyermann malt in the brewery (from multiple photos). My guess is that they use Carafoam, which is a chit based malt (it has a higher protein content). I'm not sure if they've stated that they do or do not use crystal malts... but in my brewery I don't consider carafoam to be a crystal - it subs out for 2-row and I see no reduction in fermentability or any additional sweetness but I digress!

I would hazard a guess on the grain bill being quite simple - 2-Row, Weyerman vienna (enough to get your to target SRM), and some Carafoam (~10% or more)
 
beervoid said:
Based on what do you assume its possible. Julius does have the highest protein content of all the listed beers.

Do you know if 2.9 gr per 12oz is within specs of normal malted barley?
Is the difference of 12.5% high?
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Great questions . . . that I don't have an answer to.

0.24 g/fl oz is the target, however you get there! Wish I had more answers, but this is a starting point.
 
skibb said:
We know they like to use Weyermann malt in the brewery (from multiple photos). My guess is that they use Carafoam, which is a chit based malt (it has a higher protein content). I'm not sure if they've stated that they do or do not use crystal malts... but in my brewery I don't consider carafoam to be a crystal - it subs out for 2-row and I see no reduction in fermentability or any additional sweetness but I digress!

I would hazard a guess on the grain bill being quite simple - 2-Row, Weyerman vienna (enough to get your to target SRM), and some Carafoam (~10% or more)
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I saw carafoam at the Monson brewery years ago, so they at least used to use it.
 
They use Rahr 2-row (not sure if its the pale ale malt for just pale 2 row, but probably both) as well based on pictures I've seen. Rahr base malts have a high protein cotent in comparison to other base malts. My LHBS store stocks rahr and I started use rahr and weyerman products because the LHBS reports that they have higher protein content. The store always has the cards.

This can change with season and crop so keep that in mind.
 
Most American 2 row will have a higher protein content than any English or Continental European base malt. It’s bred that way for the high adjunct brewing done by the big breweries that essentially control the market. A lot of English varieties will have the lowest with most European base being somewhere in between.

You can see numbers as high as say 14% in some American 2 row and as low as maybe 8% in some English base malts. But it varies by variety, season, maltster, etc.
 
Perhaps connecting the questions of “why so much Potassium in Tree House?” and “how do they mitigate hop creep?” - this recent note from the BeerSmith blog:
  • Use Sulfites/Sulfates to Reduce Yeast Activity – While not an option for naturally conditioned bottles, you can consider adding potassium metabisulfite (and possibly potassium sorbate) to kegs to inhibit further fermentation. These additives are widely used in the wine/mead industry as a preservative and also to inhibit further fermentation.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2019/03/31/dry-hop-creep-over-carbonation-and-diacetyl-in-beer/
 
The_Dirty_Spring said:
Use Sulfites/Sulfates to Reduce Yeast Activity – While not an option for naturally conditioned bottles, you can consider adding potassium metabisulfite (and possibly potassium sorbate) to kegs to inhibit further fermentation. These additives are widely used in the wine/mead industry as a preservative and also to inhibit further fermentation.
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I'm not sure they are commercially legal to use in beer. Home-brewers can do what they want, but the commercials must obey laws.
 
The recent analysis of Julius suggests that the attenuation of Julius is quite low despite the yeast blend. Additives the inhibit attenuation don't seem out the question.
 
Agreed. I calculate an apparent attenuation of 76% in Julius, whereas I would expect we-06 to be taking this up in to the mid 80’s.
 
RTE said:
The recent analysis of Julius suggests that the attenuation of Julius is quite low despite the yeast blend. Additives the inhibit attenuation don't seem out the question.
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Attenuation can be controlled by mashing temps.
Stopping the yeast early would stop it from cleaning up properly.
 
Per haze, foam, DH hop character, ect... the use of advanced hop products among the larger "hype" breweries is pretty ubiquitous. Right now the push is for replacing whirlpool charges with hop extracts and isolates that provide the same character. Cost and hot side losses are minimized and more money can be spent on those wasteful 8 lb/bbl DDH. The days of acceptable 30% total volume loss are pretty much over, IMO.

Also, potassium levels >800 ppm is not uncommon for all malt beers.
 
I believe metabisulfites are legal but must be declared on labels? Not super familiar with the laws, and I'm sure something like that varies state to state, but just something to keep in mind.

From my own experience with WB-06, I would say that mash temps will affect final gravity (make it higher) but will have strikingly little effect on perceived residual sweetness. This seems to be consistent with several Brulosophy xBmts on mash temps.
 
RTE said:
The recent analysis of Julius suggests that the attenuation of Julius is quite low despite the yeast blend. Additives the inhibit attenuation don't seem out the question.
Click to expand...
In my Julius clone using the 3 yeast blend, I hit 1.014 every time. I mash at 154F and add a little corn sugar to the boil. I’ve kegged a week after brewing and levees after two weeks of brewing. Exact same FG - 1.014.
 
VirginiaHops1 said:
I think there's a lot of over-thinking in this thread
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I totally agree. I’m using the Trinity clone and I think I’m probably 95% there. I’m going to start to experiment to get more esters out of the blend, but man am I close to the real thing. As I’ve mentioned before, the key for me was don’t aerate the wort and pitch without rehydrating. Hold at 74F for the first day then drop to 62F for the remainder of fermentation. Works every time!
 
robopp said:
I totally agree. I’m using the Trinity clone and I think I’m probably 95% there. I’m going to start to experiment to get more esters out of the blend, but man am I close to the real thing. As I’ve mentioned before, the key for me was don’t aerate the wort and pitch without rehydrating. Hold at 74F for the first day then drop to 62F for the remainder of fermentation. Works every time!
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Yeah, there's some really cool info in this thread on their yeast analysis but I think people can get really close by just dialing in their recipe and process. I don't think these guys are doing anything outside of the box like adding campden tablets during fermentation or have discovered some amazing technique nobody else knows about.
 
I would be surprised if they are using potassium metabisulfite. One of the most recent King Julius cans (the one a week or so before the 4/19 release) was reported oxidized by many.

Wasn’t it discussed the purpose of F2 was to halt fermentation? I’ve read the thread but it’s been a while since I’ve re read it.
 
echoALEia said:
I would be surprised if they are using potassium metabisulfite. One of the most recent King Julius cans (the one a week or so before the 4/19 release) was reported oxidized by many.

Wasn’t it discussed the purpose of F2 was to halt fermentation? I’ve read the thread but it’s been a while since I’ve re read it.
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I saw that on The Craft Beer Channel. What a disappointing thing, waiting in line and spending money on a bad batch. People were still rating it high on untappd...

here's the link , its at about 10mins
 
robopp said:
I totally agree. I’m using the Trinity clone and I think I’m probably 95% there. I’m going to start to experiment to get more esters out of the blend, but man am I close to the real thing. As I’ve mentioned before, the key for me was don’t aerate the wort and pitch without rehydrating. Hold at 74F for the first day then drop to 62F for the remainder of fermentation. Works every time!
Click to expand...

Have you tried holding at 74 and then finishing fermentation a little higher than 62? I'd also imagine reducing your pitch rate would help too.
 
StinkyBeer said:
Agreed. I calculate an apparent attenuation of 76% in Julius, whereas I would expect we-06 to be taking this up in to the mid 80’s.
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Apparent attenuation is around 76-78% as you noted.

Caluclated OG is 1.069
Measured FG is 1.01454
Measured ABV is 7.10%
 
The_Dirty_Spring said:
Perhaps connecting the questions of “why so much Potassium in Tree House?” and “how do they mitigate hop creep?” - this recent note from the BeerSmith blog:
  • Use Sulfites/Sulfates to Reduce Yeast Activity – While not an option for naturally conditioned bottles, you can consider adding potassium metabisulfite (and possibly potassium sorbate) to kegs to inhibit further fermentation. These additives are widely used in the wine/mead industry as a preservative and also to inhibit further fermentation.
http://beersmith.com/blog/2019/03/31/dry-hop-creep-over-carbonation-and-diacetyl-in-beer/
Click to expand...

This level of potassium is not unexpected. Tonsmeire found similar levels in his own homebrew using no sulfites.
 
brewpharm Hill said:
Have you tried holding at 74 and then finishing fermentation a little higher than 62? I'd also imagine reducing your pitch rate would help too.
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Not yet, but I think I want to try holding at a high temperature the whole time and also try a higher finish temp too. So many options such little brewing time.
 
As much as I love reading about home brewing, I'm not sure I want to read 75 pages of posts right now (maybe when I have more time).

Is there a close to finalized recipe that can be posted on the first post so new readers can easily see it?
 
I don’t really think anyone is all that close.

2-3% of each of the alternate yeasts.

No flaked adjuncts or wheat or oats at all

2 row, carafoam, some coloring malt

Extract at beginning of the boil

At least one boil addition

One dry hop addition at the very tail end of fermentation.

Bunging after said DH addition.

Water consisting of mainly gypsum, small CaCl, maybe some KCL in the kettle.

Good luck
 
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couchsending said:
I don’t really think anyone is all that close.

2-3% of each of the alternate yeasts.

No flaked adjuncts or wheat or oats at all

2 row, carafoam, some coloring malt

Extract at beginning of the boil

At least one boil addition

One dry hop addition at the very tail end of fermentation.

Bunging after said DH addition.

Water consisting of mainly gypsum, small CaCl, maybe some KCL in the kettle.

Good luck
Click to expand...
I literally just said a couple posts above that I’m probably 95% of the way there.
 
Back to overthinking and reading into things. The latest curiosity series is described as using "singular house yeast." I'm not sure how to interpret singular in this context, but my hunch is that Nate is trying to through us off the scent and obscure the fact they are using multiple yeasts! Either that or they've bred some hybrid yeast strain over the years. Who knows. I do love reading the descriptions of the Curiosity beers.

CURIOSITY SIXTY FIVE (Tree House Double IPA - 7.8% ABV) - For this curious exploration into the art and science of hoppy beers, we utilized all Galaxy hops in a double IPA for the first time paired with our singular house yeast. It is buoyed by a simple grist of pale malt and an appreciable amount of oats! The result of utilizing a substantial amount of Galaxy in both the kettle and dry hop, Sixty Five pours a dense yellow color in the glass with a frothy, creamy head. We taste and smell super intense notes of under ripe pineapple, lychee, earthy citrus, key lime, and apricot. A truly unique expression of Galaxy and one that will reward the senses for many weeks to come. Six years of curiosity and we are more surprised and delighted than ever!
 
RTE said:
Back to overthinking and reading into things. The latest curiosity series is described as using "singular house yeast." I'm not sure how to interpret singular in this context, but my hunch is that Nate is trying to through us off the scent and obscure the fact they are using multiple yeasts! Either that or they've bred some hybrid yeast strain over the years. Who knows. I do love reading the descriptions of the Curiosity beers.

CURIOSITY SIXTY FIVE (Tree House Double IPA - 7.8% ABV) - For this curious exploration into the art and science of hoppy beers, we utilized all Galaxy hops in a double IPA for the first time paired with our singular house yeast. It is buoyed by a simple grist of pale malt and an appreciable amount of oats! The result of utilizing a substantial amount of Galaxy in both the kettle and dry hop, Sixty Five pours a dense yellow color in the glass with a frothy, creamy head. We taste and smell super intense notes of under ripe pineapple, lychee, earthy citrus, key lime, and apricot. A truly unique expression of Galaxy and one that will reward the senses for many weeks to come. Six years of curiosity and we are more surprised and delighted than ever!
Click to expand...

"Singular" House yeast... i Think singular is being used as a synonym for unique. Like unique to just Tree House. On the Twitter post for C65 he mentioned “singular Tree House Mouthfeel”. I think it’s safe to assume that singular here may not actually mean a single yeast although it certainly reads that way.
 
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robopp said:
I literally just said a couple posts above that I’m probably 95% of the way there.
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I haven’t tried the combos in a while and will do soon. So you’re not getting any clove whatsoever from Wb? Are you naturally carbonating?
 
brewpharm Hill said:
"Singular" House yeast... i Think singular is being used as a synonym for unique. Like unique to just Tree House. On the Twitter post for C65 he mentioned “singular Tree House Mouthfeel”. I think it’s safe to assume that singular here may not actually mean a single yeast although it certainly reads that way.
Click to expand...

Nah - to me it reads like singular as in "distinctive", not even unique.

And bear in mind that "yeast" can mean a single strain or a multistrain. If he'd said "yeast strain" then that would be more meaningful.
 
NJGeorge said:
I haven’t tried the combos in a while and will do soon. So you’re not getting any clove whatsoever from Wb? Are you naturally carbonating?
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Zero clove, which I was getting bad and ruining beer for the first three attempts. I’m not naturally carbonating. Fill keg and throw it in the kegerator. I just made a Sap clone and I don’t have that strong fruity flavor that’s normally found in Sap, but it has all of the other TH characteristics and some bubble gum flavors too.
 
No one has really stated it, but I don't think most people on this thread are happy with the results from the yeast blend. I know I have not been. For me, T-58 is the overpowering yeast. Hard to get rid of that belgian character.
 
HopVision said:
No one has really stated it, but I don't think most people on this thread are happy with the results from the yeast blend. I know I have not been. For me, T-58 is the overpowering yeast. Hard to get rid of that belgian character.
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I for one am happy with the blend if you are referring to the 92%SO4, 5%T58 and 3%WB06. I'm following the Julius clone recipe as outlined on Trinity Brewers Collaboration site. I have not had the fortune to have tasted any Treehouse beer to compare but definitely like the results from this recipe.
 

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