Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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melville said:
This seems new:
https://www.whitelabs.com/yeast-bank/wlp067-coastal-haze-ale-yeast-blend
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ordered 2 of these from their "vault" back in May or something. Haven't been able to find too much info on people who have brewed with it (ba, hbt, and reddit are not coming up with reviews).

brewed a low ABV (1.050) this weekend with 2row, white wheat, cara, c15 ph5.35, 120 sulfate 175 chloride and pitched this and having it sit at 68. in a day or two i'll attach co2 and move it to 69. Activity was there within 12 hours and was pumping away vigorously when i did the biotrans dry hop a little after 24 hours. Hopping with mosaic and vic secret
 
But does anyone describe WLP300 as "one of their favourite NEIPA strains"? I think most people would regard Conan, 1318 and Sacch Trois as their top 3 for NEIPAs. The fact WLP067 talks about pineapple and diastaticus points strongly towards WLP644, WLP095 is their version of Conan, they seem to be pushing WLP066 as their equivlent of 1318 even if it's different. So I'd assume those three unless proven otherwise.

Incidentally there's a (misspelt) thread for WLP067 here : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wlp067-costal-haze.651283/
 
I recently used WY3638, which is a little different from WLP300, but at least in that hef vein. Smells great so far but it's still in primary. Going to keg this weekend and naturally carb with speise plus 2 g CBC-1. Will report results.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
But does anyone describe WLP300 as "one of their favourite NEIPA strains"? I think most people would regard Conan, 1318 and Sacch Trois as their top 3 for NEIPAs. The fact WLP067 talks about pineapple and diastaticus points strongly towards WLP644, WLP095 is their version of Conan, they seem to be pushing WLP066 as their equivlent of 1318 even if it's different. So I'd assume those three unless proven otherwise.

Incidentally there's a (misspelt) thread for WLP067 here : https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wlp067-costal-haze.651283/
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That wasn't meant to be a suggestion for the WLP067, I meant it as a continuation of something I was thinking of trying. Wasn't very clear so I've edited that post.
 
The thing about TH is they get just a bit of tartness out of that S-04 that compliments the fruity flavors. I think 066 might have a bit of that based on some things I've read (vs. conan which doesn't), and I think WLP644 has a bit of that, and I think you might get a more easy banana with WLP300 than wb-06 to bend it all a bit bubblegum.
 
Might it be helpful to have a yeast like wb-06, wlp644, that do ferment longer with regards to O2? Specifically with a late dry hop — say 5-7 days out when other yeasts have really wrapped it up at that point and you'd otherwise be nervous about introducing some O2 in this style with a DH addition?

Ordered some grains, ordered 066, 644, and 3068.
 
melville said:
Might it be helpful to have a yeast like wb-06, wlp644, that do ferment longer with regards to O2? Specifically with a late dry hop — say 5-7 days out when other yeasts have really wrapped it up at that point and you'd otherwise be nervous about introducing some O2 in this style with a DH addition?

Ordered some grains, ordered 066, 644, and 3068.
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Do you think adding that type of yeast at DH would contribute any banana/bubblegum flavor? I only get it in beers like Julius, alter, dobblegang er and like beers. Sap and eureka definitely don’t have it from what I can tell.
 
NJGeorge said:
Do you think adding that type of yeast at DH would contribute any banana/bubblegum flavor? I only get it in beers like Julius, alter, dobblegang er and like beers. Sap and eureka definitely don’t have it from what I can tell.
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I don't think it would contribute to the flavor profile, and I don't know that a commercial brewery even has to worry about this — I was just thinking that at the homebrew level, maybe it isn't so bad that these STA1 positive yeasts keep going. Ideally you'd want to let everything finish and then get those dry hops in the fermenter and maybe that puts you 7(?) days out plus something like 4-7 days of contact with the hops and then transfer to keg. With just say S-04/1318/Conan etc, there might be concerns about o2 getting in there — thus solutions like keg hopping (or me: partly naturally carbing with that second dry hop). With 644, WB-06, etc (in your blend)., maybe you get some scrubbing in that day 5-7 window where you'd want to dump some dry hops.
 
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echoALEia said:
Not sure if anyone has posted or heard this, but here is a really good interview with Henry from Monkish where he talks a little bit about his process and how he was influenced by treehouse. https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/podcast-episode-29-monkish

Their IPAs are some of the best I’ve ever had. Huge trade bait. Cheers [emoji482]
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Thanks for that! Been looking for a new podcast lately. Love that he pretty much dispels so many things people think are critical, which this thread has done as well.

No biotransformation hopping
No real water adjustments other than adding a little Ca.
Sounds like no flaked adjuncts either

Love listening to Henry talk, he’s a really interesting individual.

Edit: checked out the water for the city of Torrance, it’s crazy high in Ca, Cl, So4, Na, Mg already.
 
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Where did you find the water profile for Torrance?

I like how he mentioned the hop varieties as being important to the style. I couldn’t agree more. The aroma on their IPAs I’ve had are second to none. You can smell them holding the glass/can at least a foot away from you. Almost like cracking open a fresh bag of hops.
 
Ton of great information in this thread! What is everyones favorite blend of yeast to date? Doesnt necessarily have go be identical to Treehouse. Ive been brewing for over a year now and would like to start attempting some yeast blends for new flavors but have no clue where to start
 
couchsending said:
Thanks for that! Been looking for a new podcast lately. Love that he pretty much dispels so many things people think are critical, which this thread has done as well.

No biotransformation hopping
No real water adjustments other than adding a little Ca.
Sounds like no flaked adjuncts either

Love listening to Henry talk, he’s a really interesting individual.

Edit: checked out the water for the city of Torrance, it’s crazy high in Ca, Cl, So4, Na, Mg already.
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their beers have some crazy haze/look to them for no flaked adjuncts or biotrans hopping.
 
melville said:
I always get that too. Swore there was Munich, but he has said "doesn't like" Munich in hoppy beers. I started to use Vienna, and always like the beers I make with Vienna in them, and now I use it all the time (in Saisons too). At the brewery they had Vienna and Munich. We know Julius doesn't have biscuit or aromatic or light crystal. Julius seems to have a deeper hue to it, or did, so I used to always suspect that the Rahr Pale Malt was involved — haven't tried it myself, but many use it as a sub for MO, maybe that's where that character is coming from (if it doesn't have Vienna in it) and could explain the sweetness.
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I also get a bready flavor in Julius and to me it's one of the things I love the most about it. But then when I drink some their latest Curiosity beers (40's) I get a ton of that bready flavor. I think those are some of the best beers I've ever had
 
chrisisnapping said:
their beers have some crazy haze/look to them for no flaked adjuncts or biotrans hopping.
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I don't hear him saying no flaked. They don't really get into the grain bill because that conversation kind of gets interrupted by hops. They do use Rahr 2-row, but starts to talk about cutting it with other malts, "caramel malts" and naked oats.

Based on the hop talk, likes high oil love citra and especially galaxy. Put galaxy in a beer and you get a good deal of haze (as @couchsending would say... polyphenols).

Would love there to be a correlation between high oil and high polyphenol because there is no info polyphenol content for most hops. One of these two or maybe both do seem critical for appearance and mouthfeel.

Would love to see a Monkish or Tree House beer after fermentation is done but before that last dry hop.
 
im certain monkish uses flaked oats, i've seen pictures of them mashing with them before. henry is arguably brewing the best ipas right now, no way he will give out all his processes.
 
I think they use oats and or wheat in some beers, but they usually list that in the description of the beer if they do.

IPA with oats
IPA with spelt

If they are double dry hopping both rounds would be after fermentation, at least now.
 
Any updates? I know there were a few new experiments going on recently. I recently did a batch with so5 and some t58 fermented cool set at 62. It’s only two weeks old so I can’t give a solid review yet. I did use 100% enigma and all I can say is I’ll never be doing that again..
 
NJGeorge said:
Any updates? I know there were a few new experiments going on recently. I recently did a batch with so5 and some t58 fermented cool set at 62. It’s only two weeks old so I can’t give a solid review yet. I did use 100% enigma and all I can say is I’ll never be doing that again..
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Do u not like Enigma or the yeast combo? I just kegged 5 gallons using 1318 and a pound of Enigma.
 
Sbe2 said:
Do u not like Enigma or the yeast combo? I just kegged 5 gallons using 1318 and a pound of Enigma.
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Can’t tell with the yeast by itself yet or maybe the yeast reacting with the hops, but I get that very dank (fuel, petroleum, deisel, piney) aroma. I’m guessing it’s the hops. Hops from Yakima. Maybe a bad harvest? I got this once with a all Galaxy other half beer. Then again in two weeks it might be a different beer. Well see.
 
Nope that’s Enigma. I think some lots might be better/worse than others. I don’t get that as much from Galaxy but I get it from Nelson and Riwaka really bad. It’s a thiol that supposedly contributes that. I’ve read an interesting study that states you might be able to volatize that thiol with copper. I don’t know a bunch about the process as I didn’t want to pay the $40 to read the whole study so I don’t know much more but if it gets to a point where you don’t want to drink it maybe try throwing a penny in and see what happens.
 
couchsending said:
Nope that’s Enigma. I think some lots might be better/worse than others. I don’t get that as much from Galaxy but I get it from Nelson and Riwaka really bad. It’s a thiol that supposedly contributes that. I’ve read an interesting study that states you might be able to volatize that thiol with copper. I don’t know a bunch about the process as I didn’t want to pay the $40 to read the whole study so I don’t know much more but if it gets to a point where you don’t want to drink it maybe try throwing a penny in and see what happens.
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Interesting. I’ll have to wait to see how it turns out. Btw when I taste tested I got a cigar tobacco type dankness as well. I know weird but I also love cigars haha
 
NJGeorge said:
Any updates? I know there were a few new experiments going on recently. I recently did a batch with so5 and some t58 fermented cool set at 62. It’s only two weeks old so I can’t give a solid review yet. I did use 100% enigma and all I can say is I’ll never be doing that again..
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Hmm, I'll continue not using Enigma then.

Got a brew day coming this weekend. Going to try WLP066 + WLP644 + WLP300 with Citra and Bravo (as a large 5 minute addition)
I've been obsessed with trying wlp644 after having a tasty neipa that used it.

on Monkish — they don't do Biotrans, they do DDH at times after fermentation. Beers can take 30 days from grain to glass because it takes that long for the hops to mellow.
on Tree House — they don't do DDH, do use biotrans on core beers, grain to glass 18-21 days.
If TH does one DH what day is that happening?
Do we know when Trillium DH's?

Had some beers from Other Half this week. One with Medusa. Very bright candy-like fruit flavors. Doesn't seem to want to meld in with the background fruit flavors though for better or worse.

Every beer from OH is basically the same though — slickness is very apparent via all the oats. Don't get "slick" in TH.
One beer had GNO in it. That beer is my favorite of the three I picked up, though not sure I can pick out the GNO — there's certainly nothing objectionable about it and Monkish did mention it. I do find TH to have more distinct and crafted beers that have more of their own identity vs Other Half seems to be the same beer different hops (mind you deliciously done).

Have we talked about this before — that TH modifies the base beer for beers like SSSap, JJJulius, etc.? I feel like we did but was there a consensus of how they might modify a grist to support more hops?
 
melville said:
Hmm, I'll continue not using Enigma then.

Got a brew day coming this weekend. Going to try WLP066 + WLP644 + WLP300 with Citra and Bravo (as a large 5 minute addition)
I've been obsessed with trying wlp644 after having a tasty neipa that used it.

on Monkish — they don't do Biotrans, they do DDH at times after fermentation. Beers can take 30 days from grain to glass because it takes that long for the hops to mellow.
on Tree House — they don't do DDH, do use biotrans on core beers, grain to glass 18-21 days.
If TH does one DH what day is that happening?
Do we know when Trillium DH’s
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Monkish doesn’t have a centrifuge as far as I know. Their beers needs to sit at cold temps for a longer period of time in order to drop as much yeast/polyphenols as possible. I think their hopping amounts are closer to Trillium and Other Half who both have fuges, hence the longer time frame. These DH amounts are all a minimum of 4-5#/bbl.

In my opinion Treehouse doesn’t use near the dry hopping rates as others and this is why people tend to ***** that their beers have “fallen off” or a worse at the new facility. I doubt they’re drastically different it’s more the fact that others are using way more hops resulting in more extreme aromas and flavors. This is also why you’re seeing the new iterations of core beers with more hops, to counter what other breweries are doing. Ssssaaaappp, Aaaaaaaallltero, etc

There are brewers who have put TH beers through their labs and the core beers (at least a few years ago) weren’t that high in Hop oil content. They get a lot of the aroma and flavor from the yeast combo vs. piles of hops. I think this is what has potentially changed the most. The yeast is reacting differently in the much larger fermenters and they’ve had to adjust some things. I think that can be the biggest issue with scaling.

Every time I’ve heard Jc talk about dry hopping it’s at the very end of fermentation. Within 1 Plato of FG. I would bet that’s the case on their singular DH beers. 2nd DH is most likely closer to 60 after as much yeast has been pulled as possible. I would assume similar with TH? The more yeast in the beer and the more activity the more aroma you lose and the more muddled the flavors/aromas become. For maximum aroma you need minimal amount of yeast. I know TH doesn’t use a hop cannon or torpedo. I’ve seen pics of employees dumping DH additions in the tops of the FVs recently.

If you haven’t listened to the CB&B podcast with the owner of Reuben’s Brews I would suggest it. They make wonderful beer and he has a lot of really good things to say. Most notably he talks about haze stability and more yeast in solution can actually cause the beer to clear faster. This is the real benefit of the centrifuge, you can actually create more haze. I’d you want to do more research look into info on creating more permanent haze in Hefeweizens.

Adam from Reuben’s also talks about how he’s been moving more and more
Hops from WP to DH and how he feels the impact from WP just isn’t that great. I feel like this is similar to JCs statements about Whirlpool amounts.
 
My understanding of Tree House process (or at least what they started out doing) was to add Belgian yeasts mid-way through their IPA fermentations, which has the effect of limiting some POF+ ester formation.

Also, 4-5 bbl dry hops are not a good use of hops. There are plenty of studies that show that hopping rates much above 2lbs/bbl both are less efficient at oil/terpene extraction and do not correlate with positive sensory analysis for true hop character. Overall hop intensity is higher, but varietal character (citrus/tropical fruit/ect) is completely lost in favor of vegetal and tea-like grassiness. Check out the LaFontane study from OSU. A more aromatic dry hop character is achieved via using less dry hops, but extracting more oil via dynamic DH methods such as reciruculation. I am also still waiting for a study to show any significant biotransformation DH gains using anything but Dekkera yeasts. I digress.
 
bierhaus15 said:
My understanding of Tree House process (or at least what they started out doing) was to add Belgian yeasts mid-way through their IPA fermentations, which has the effect of limiting some POF+ ester formation.

Also, 4-5 bbl dry hops are not a good use of hops. There are plenty of studies that show that hopping rates much above 2lbs/bbl both are less efficient at oil/terpene extraction and do not correlate with positive sensory analysis for true hop character. Overall hop intensity is higher, but varietal character (citrus/tropical fruit/ect) is completely lost in favor of vegetal and tea-like grassiness. Check out the LaFontane study from OSU. A more aromatic dry hop character is achieved via using less dry hops, but extracting more oil via dynamic DH methods such as reciruculation. I am also still waiting for a study to show any significant biotransformation DH gains using anything but Dekkera yeasts. I digress.
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Right...honestly I remember reading an article about how the only strain of yeast that was proven to do this bio thing was Brett. But now with the NEIPA craze everyone seems to talk about it but no proof as far as I know.
It sounds good though when you use it in a conversation...

And another thing...if your depending on yeast to create hop like flavors are you really making a hop focused beer? Or is that the art of it?
 
melville said:
Going to try WLP066 + WLP644 + WLP300 with Citra and Bravo (as a large 5 minute addition)
I've been obsessed with trying wlp644 after having a tasty neipa that used it.
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I'm ahead and behind you. Had one bottle so far of a session blonde made with 644 among others fermented at air temp of ~23C and got loads of pineapple off it - more drinking is required.

Yesterday I got a delivery that included some Bravo and Nugget for use as geranioling and linalooling hops respectively, but I've got some kveiks and saisons to play with first.
 
Here's the Sapporo lager yeast biotransforming - or at least geraniol is going down whilst citronellol is going up - see Fig 3/4 of https://www.researchgate.net/public...rmentation_under_Various_Hop-Addition_Timings

That paper also has an interesting chart of the terpenol components of some hop varieties, you may understand why I've just got some Bravo and Nugget!

As I've mentioned here before, I've also seen T-58 biotransformation for myself, turning Chinook from grapefruit into lime. I guess you could probably do a quick and dirty experiment with say boiling 120g DME in a litre of lightly Burtonised water, ideally a tiny amount of hop tea or alpha extract for bitterness and then 10-15g of Chinook added in stages from flameout to dry hop, split in two and ferment half with something clean like US-05, and half with T-58.

So biotransformation is a real thing in Saccharomyces, but different yeast do it to different amounts. One thing I'm wondering is whether certain groups of yeast are better at it than others - S-33/Windsor is closely related to T-58 but relatively unrelated to most other brewery yeasts (except maybe 1318, interestingly) so I wonder if S-33/Windsor is a POF- route to biotransformation.
 
bierhaus15 said:
My understanding of Tree House process (or at least what they started out doing) was to add Belgian yeasts mid-way through their IPA fermentations, which has the effect of limiting some POF+ ester formation.

Also, 4-5 bbl dry hops are not a good use of hops. There are plenty of studies that show that hopping rates much above 2lbs/bbl both are less efficient at oil/terpene extraction and do not correlate with positive sensory analysis for true hop character. Overall hop intensity is higher, but varietal character (citrus/tropical fruit/ect) is completely lost in favor of vegetal and tea-like grassiness. Check out the LaFontane study from OSU. A more aromatic dry hop character is achieved via using less dry hops, but extracting more oil via dynamic DH methods such as reciruculation. I am also still waiting for a study to show any significant biotransformation DH gains using anything but Dekkera yeasts. I digress.
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What about the studies done at Sapporo? The ones with measured amounts of beta Citronello increasing throughout fermentation.

I’ve seen the OSU study as well. Granted I can’t recirculate but I have noticed a bigger impact in overall beer going from 2 to 4 lbs per barrel and I haven’t really gotten what I would call vegetal or grassy character. I just resuspend with Co2.
 
Northern_Brewer said:
Here's the Sapporo lager yeast biotransforming - or at least geraniol is going down whilst citronellol is going up - see Fig 3/4 of https://www.researchgate.net/public...rmentation_under_Various_Hop-Addition_Timings

That paper also has an interesting chart of the terpenol components of some hop varieties, you may understand why I've just got some Bravo and Nugget!

As I've mentioned here before, I've also seen T-58 biotransformation for myself, turning Chinook from grapefruit into lime. I guess you could probably do a quick and dirty experiment with say boiling 120g DME in a litre of lightly Burtonised water, ideally a tiny amount of hop tea or alpha extract for bitterness and then 10-15g of Chinook added in stages from flameout to dry hop, split in two and ferment half with something clean like US-05, and half with T-58.

So biotransformation is a real thing in Saccharomyces, but different yeast do it to different amounts. One thing I'm wondering is whether certain groups of yeast are better at it than others - S-33/Windsor is closely related to T-58 but relatively unrelated to most other brewery yeasts (except maybe 1318, interestingly) so I wonder if S-33/Windsor is a POF- route to biotransformation.
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I honestly don’t think a home brewer could actually run biotransformation tests at home....there could easily be other things at play....ph....age of hops...water profile....without the equipment to test these chemical compounds it’s just a guessing game.

I heard the podcast...Beersmith one with Stan Heironymus where he mentioned Sapporo...it was interesting.

But...as far as know no one has yet to prove that 1318, Conan, SO4 and the various other yeasts for this style are Biotransforming hop compounds...it’s all conjecture.

The term gets thrown around a lot.

Also...aren’t IPA’s supposed to showcase hops...not a transformed version? Or is that the art?
 
Northern_Brewer said:
As I've mentioned here before, I've also seen T-58 biotransformation for myself, turning Chinook from grapefruit into lime.
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And do you have GCMS or similar data to prove this? Bit of cheek there, but we see changes in oil composition all the time with minor process changes and things like pH shift. Taste proves nothing really, if the process behind it changes. We already know that the two most biotransformative yeast types are lager strains (largely allotetraploids with sacc. chromosomes) and dekkera. The Sapporo studies were a baby step, but how many Treehouse IPA's are brewed with lager yeast at DH amounts that are less than 0.25 lbs/bbl? Also, dry hopping beer is illegal in Japan, btw, if you want to call said beverage "beer." Sorta playing devils advocate here, but I'm still waiting for a study that conclusively shows biotransformation in DH beer that amounts to anything that can be tasted above threshold. Basically, dry hop process has more impact on DH character than biotransformation. That said, get your hands on some ethanol bravo extract if you really want to play in the bio space and ferment away with 34/70. Still won't make your onion IPA taste like rose petals tho.

couchsending said:
I’ve seen the OSU study as well. Granted I can’t recirculate but I have noticed a bigger impact in overall beer going from 2 to 4 lbs per barrel and I haven’t really gotten what I would call vegetal or grassy character. I just resuspend with Co2.
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That was pretty much the study. Total hop intensity goes up with greater usage, while citrus-tropical and varietal specific character decreases. In place of that, you get vegetal notes, especially past 2lbs/bbl. The subjectivity of taste comes into play here though... I've yet to taste any TH or Trillium beer where I could say, "yep, that tastes like citra, galaxy, ect." I'm sure many will disagree.
 
bierhaus15 said:
That said, get your hands on some ethanol bravo extract if you really want to play in the bio space and ferment away with 34/70. Still won't make your onion IPA taste like rose petals tho.

I've yet to taste any TH or Trillium beer where I could say, "yep, that tastes like citra, galaxy, ect." I'm sure many will disagree.
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I’ve been thinking of brewing a small batch of hoppy beer with some 34/70 at warm temps Just for shits and giggles.

Really even on the Trillium beers? The single hop Street beers? I would say most of those really do have pretty distinct variety specific Hop aromas at least. Tree House beers I would agree. I don’t think Green tastes/smells at all like Galaxy, at least now.
 
On the whole flaked adjuncts note, something just dawned on me.

Trillium only uses flaked wheat or oats on beers that use Pilsner malt. Pilsner malt is usually much lower in protein than US 2 row. Anything with two row as a base malt just gets “white wheat” which is malted wheat.

I didn’t go through every single beer but the 10 or so that I did all followed suit.
 
couchsending said:
On the whole flaked adjuncts note, something just dawned on me.

Trillium only uses flaked wheat or oats on beers that use Pilsner malt. Pilsner malt is usually much lower in protein than US 2 row. Anything with two row as a base malt just gets “white wheat” which is malted wheat.

I didn’t go through every single beer but the 10 or so that I did all followed suit.
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Interesting that more recent permutations and Harbor Island beers have no (listed) adjunct, just pale, honey, and victory and have a deep orange color
 

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