I'm guessing it would require some equipment like a Rolec DH90 pump - you can add pellets under pressure while recirculating your tank.
I know some breweries like Trillium and Odd13 use them and love them.
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I'm guessing it would require some equipment like a Rolec DH90 pump - you can add pellets under pressure while recirculating your tank.
I know some breweries like Trillium and Odd13 use them and love them.
both of those breweries also get pretty good flavor extraction from hops, so that's interesting. Odd 13's Noob is basically my go-to 6 pack
ThePaleAleIndian
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Here's my report on my 100% WY3638 batch.
O.G. 1.068
F.G. high at 1.020
Fermentables/Mash:
76% Weyermann Pils
12% Carafoam
6% C10
6% Acidulated
Rising temp mash from 152F to 172F over 2 hours.
Water:
75 ppm Ca
110 ppm SO4
225 ppm Cl
As much K as needed to hit the Cl target above with KCl, while limiting Ca to the value above. (If anyone is interested I can dig up my additions and volumes)
Hops:
No boil hops
4 oz Citra, 4 oz Mosaic Hopstand, beginning at 175F down to ending at 165F.
8 oz Citra, 2 oz Amarillo at 30 h post pitch
4 oz Citra, 4 oz Mosaic as keg hops, loose with diptube filter
Yeast/Fermentation:
1 pack of WY3638. I estimate pitch rate based on manufacture date at 0.24M cells/mL/Plato
Pitching temp 75F.
Fermented at 75F controlled ambient, raised to 79F at about 42 hours post pitch
Carb:
Natural with 20 oz canned/sealed gyle from brewday and 2 g CBC-1. 11 days of conditioning before chilling to serving temp.
Tasting notes:
Very nice mouthfeel, not quite as soft as the best TH I've had but getting there. Aroma is sweet tropical fruits, a touch of dank. Flavor is super, super dank. Reminds me of some DDH Trillium beers. There is some banana-bubblegum in the finish, but the hops just stomp on everything else. I think 8 oz/5 gal is too much keg hop in this recipe for my personal tastes. Low bitterness, and much less sweet than Alter Ego for example, despite the high FG. Looks nice IMHO.
Next steps:
Cut back the keg hops for sure. Possibly mess around with blending with 1968 or 1318, either copitch or blended batches. I would like the finish to be a little sweeter, but I am hesitant to add any more C10 than 6%.
O.G. 1.068
F.G. high at 1.020
Fermentables/Mash:
76% Weyermann Pils
12% Carafoam
6% C10
6% Acidulated
Rising temp mash from 152F to 172F over 2 hours.
Water:
75 ppm Ca
110 ppm SO4
225 ppm Cl
As much K as needed to hit the Cl target above with KCl, while limiting Ca to the value above. (If anyone is interested I can dig up my additions and volumes)
Hops:
No boil hops
4 oz Citra, 4 oz Mosaic Hopstand, beginning at 175F down to ending at 165F.
8 oz Citra, 2 oz Amarillo at 30 h post pitch
4 oz Citra, 4 oz Mosaic as keg hops, loose with diptube filter
Yeast/Fermentation:
1 pack of WY3638. I estimate pitch rate based on manufacture date at 0.24M cells/mL/Plato
Pitching temp 75F.
Fermented at 75F controlled ambient, raised to 79F at about 42 hours post pitch
Carb:
Natural with 20 oz canned/sealed gyle from brewday and 2 g CBC-1. 11 days of conditioning before chilling to serving temp.
Tasting notes:
Very nice mouthfeel, not quite as soft as the best TH I've had but getting there. Aroma is sweet tropical fruits, a touch of dank. Flavor is super, super dank. Reminds me of some DDH Trillium beers. There is some banana-bubblegum in the finish, but the hops just stomp on everything else. I think 8 oz/5 gal is too much keg hop in this recipe for my personal tastes. Low bitterness, and much less sweet than Alter Ego for example, despite the high FG. Looks nice IMHO.
Next steps:
Cut back the keg hops for sure. Possibly mess around with blending with 1968 or 1318, either copitch or blended batches. I would like the finish to be a little sweeter, but I am hesitant to add any more C10 than 6%.
melville
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Looks, sounds, quite nice.
stickyfinger
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i am thinking that huge keghop gave you the super dank.
ThePaleAleIndian
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Yeah, I think so too. Definitely going to be dialing that back when I do this recipe again.
stickyfinger
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i did 4 oz apollo in a sack in a 3G keg and it was the dankest beer ever. it took on a kind of parmesan cheese dankness. i later realized the hops were fine and apollo os fine but big keg hops can go south.
melville
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Update:
Transferred the 066+644+300 to a keg (day 8) along with some Citra and a dash of Amarillo+Simcoe.
Final hydrometer reading was 1.014, so no change from day 4.
Tried a) crashing at 55F b) mylar balloon with C02 to combat suckback. Hops did crash quite nicely for transfer at that temp and the balloon appeared little changed. Take that for what it's worth.
Did not add yeast or sugar at kegging for this one to see if I miss it.
Grist was a 50/50 blend of rahr 2-row and Pale with 15% rahr raw wheat (have never used) 15% flaked oats 3% caramalt.
mashed at 156. ph 5.2. Entering kettle ph 5.1. exit kettle ph 5.0
Still not really noticing wlp300 (15%) here. Very ester driven though, fairly dry at this point. Hazy boi. A bit of slickness, mouthfeel is promising. Very tasty.
Bravo seems fine, but not magical. It's orange quality sort of sits above the Citra right now, more rind than juice, but less so than 4 days ago. Definitely does not taste bad though.
Transferred the 066+644+300 to a keg (day 8) along with some Citra and a dash of Amarillo+Simcoe.
Final hydrometer reading was 1.014, so no change from day 4.
Tried a) crashing at 55F b) mylar balloon with C02 to combat suckback. Hops did crash quite nicely for transfer at that temp and the balloon appeared little changed. Take that for what it's worth.
Did not add yeast or sugar at kegging for this one to see if I miss it.
Grist was a 50/50 blend of rahr 2-row and Pale with 15% rahr raw wheat (have never used) 15% flaked oats 3% caramalt.
mashed at 156. ph 5.2. Entering kettle ph 5.1. exit kettle ph 5.0
Still not really noticing wlp300 (15%) here. Very ester driven though, fairly dry at this point. Hazy boi. A bit of slickness, mouthfeel is promising. Very tasty.
Bravo seems fine, but not magical. It's orange quality sort of sits above the Citra right now, more rind than juice, but less so than 4 days ago. Definitely does not taste bad though.
ThePaleAleIndian
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Gotcha. I've been using about 6 oz of keg hops with my NEIPAs recently. It's been working out ok until now, very aromatic, less dank. The 8 oz i just used made it dank, but not necessarily unpleasant. I think it probably has a lot to do with where the top of the crashed hop layer sits in comparison to my dip tube filter. Never tried Apollo though, all my keg hops recently have been in the vein of Mosaic, Citra, Galaxy, El Dorado, etc. I think for me that 6 oz level is probably the sweet spot.
Forgot to add an update on this. I cool crashed it to 50 or so for a week (attached to a C02 cylinder) while I was on vacation, and then added priming sugar and transferred to a purged keg. Somewhere in that process, however, it got exposed to enough oxygen to ruin it, possibly during the cool crash. Had that honey-like sweetness and no distinct hop taste or aroma (despite finishing around 1.013, with little crystal in the recipe). Had to dump the last 2 gallons.
So, may need to give it another shot.
FWIW, I think that Monkish said they aim for 5.0 knockout
couchsending
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I think KO PH is pretty yeast strain dependent.
Very nice! So no clove?
melville
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None that I can sense — not getting any of the WLP300 really. Will either have to bump that up or replace with something else (that brings the bubblegum/orange spice/x-factor)
JohnConnor
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Just a thought, do you think a ferulic acid rest would help bring the 300 out more?
That would bring out the clove and should most likely be avoided, from my perspective
JohnConnor
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You're right. I was reading up on it and read it incorrect.
Do you mind sharing the water profile?
melville
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Water was Ca: 100 Mg: 15 Na: 65 SO4: 75 Cl: 185 HCO3: 106
Dry Hopping rate was 5lb/bbl (63g/gal). 2/3 of that was keg hopped (1/3 in a dry hop at 48 hours). Put it in the keg. Let it sit 24 hours at 65F. Moved to the fridge for carbing. Excited and nervous to try this exact beer but with galaxy — last galaxy beer went chalky on me, so I'm hesitant to put a ton of galaxy (or any galaxy really) in a keg again. But here the Citra flavors are pretty nice, no vegetal quality, no dankness, but that lovely grassy quality it can have, and all the passion fruit, grapefruit, mango stuff bending orangey (from the Bravo and Amarillo I'm assuming).
The WLP644 beer that I had had that made me want to try this, really went grapefruit (it was all Citra) in a way that I never get from Citra.
JohnConnor
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What was your kettle hopping like?
couchsending
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HCO3????
Na at 60ppm when I tried it in a pale ale...it was just too much...dare I say saltiness.....not like pretzels....but too much....but I did like the way it affected the beer. So I reduced the amount to 20ppm in the next pale ale and liked the results. A fullness...sides of the tongue fullness to the beer. Curious to push the amounts. About 2.25 ounces per gallon may hide that salt....I don't know.
Don't give up on a massive dose of Galaxy....I did a huge (8 oz. in a 2.5 gallon keg) dry hop in an IPA....with 007....once it aged a little....man....a great beer. Toiled over the ph and 5.2 at the beginning of the boil does it right. I was putting that stuff in everything for a while there....made a great quick sour a couple times with it....for me it's the hop that can do no wrong. Give it some time.
The bicarbonate is high?
Citra kills me. It's a love hate thing. When I pay attention and get that boil ph right....and a low dose....3 oz. dry hop in 5% abv beer....I get more citrus flavor than mango...passion fruit (which I get sick of). Amazing hop...but I haven't had enough experience with it brewing. I just don't like the mango thing....I think to me (with my process) it's cloying. Grapefruit is not in the same category as passion fruit or mango to me.
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I didn't notice any saltiness at 80 ppm ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
EDIT: after a quick Google search, I'm pretty sure you're hitting the placebo effect, because the human taste threshold is on the order of 1000 ppm for sodium
EDIT: after a quick Google search, I'm pretty sure you're hitting the placebo effect, because the human taste threshold is on the order of 1000 ppm for sodium
Maybe it is...but my beer changed (one I have brewed many times) when I went higher.
From the Bru-N-Water water knowledge section:
“Sodium – The sour, salty taste of sodium accentuates beer's flavor when present at modest concentration. It is poisonous to yeast and harsh tasting at excessive concentrations. It accentuates flavor when used with chloride and imparts roundness to the beer flavor. The preferred sodium concentration range is 0 to 150 ppm, but the upper limit should be reduced in water with high sulfate concentration to avoid harshness. A practical maximum concentration of 100 ppm is recommended for brewing, but brewers should recognize that waters from the historic world brewing centers have less than 60 ppm sodium. Keeping sodium concentration below 60 ppm is highly recommended. While low sodium is desirable, some beer styles such as Gose may have much higher sodium concentration (~250 ppm) as part of their desired flavor profile, but that sodium is typically added to the post-fermented beer. “
From the Bru-N-Water water knowledge section:
“Sodium – The sour, salty taste of sodium accentuates beer's flavor when present at modest concentration. It is poisonous to yeast and harsh tasting at excessive concentrations. It accentuates flavor when used with chloride and imparts roundness to the beer flavor. The preferred sodium concentration range is 0 to 150 ppm, but the upper limit should be reduced in water with high sulfate concentration to avoid harshness. A practical maximum concentration of 100 ppm is recommended for brewing, but brewers should recognize that waters from the historic world brewing centers have less than 60 ppm sodium. Keeping sodium concentration below 60 ppm is highly recommended. While low sodium is desirable, some beer styles such as Gose may have much higher sodium concentration (~250 ppm) as part of their desired flavor profile, but that sodium is typically added to the post-fermented beer. “
ThePaleAleIndian
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Is your local water high in HCO3? Mine is around 95 ppm. I have lived in places that were upwards of 250 ppm HCO3 in the local water.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
You want to be careful with that kind of comment as you can get all sorts of synergistic effects at lower concentrations.
I don't doubt that it would change the flavor profile, I just am dubious that it would actually provide a saline flavor
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My grandfather used to eat apples with salt on them. I remember trying it....and trying it since. Try that yourself or try it on watermelon.
Forget the “saline” flavor and pay attention to the flavors of the apple and how the salt affected it. It dulls the tartness and/or causes the sweetness to be earthy....depending on the type of apple. That’s how I felt the higher amount of salt affected my pale ale. It took the life out of some of the characteristics of the beer.
I agree that NaCl has an appreciable impact on beers even when the sodium concentration is kept low, but I think that is partly due to the fact that there is also chloride being added as well. As with all other mineral additions, there are usually 2 parameters, so it's hard to determine what is the actual cause of the flavor/aroma change. I have been using NaCl additions for the past 7-10 batches of NEIPA and have been very happy with the results. I find that it adds a fullness, definitely increases perceived sweetness, and I also think it just increases the overall level of flavor in the beer. I wouldn't say that any of them have tasted "salty" and I have pushed up to 80ppm on a couple batches. I had 2 of these IPAs place 1st and 3rd in an all IPA competition with 120 other IPAs, for what that's worth. The first place beer was brewed at the brewery where the competition was held and received positive reviews.
I also don't think knockout pH has been discussed enough in this thread. Or post-ferm pH adjustment.
I also don't think knockout pH has been discussed enough in this thread. Or post-ferm pH adjustment.
Have you brewed the same beer(s) with an equal amount of chloride minus the salt? There is a difference. The salt does something different than just using chloride. You can taste the difference.
While I do think salt is beneficial...for my tastes and process I find lower amounts better. Just like I find I like higher sulfates better than higher chlorides in my pale ales.
Maybe there is something to Melvilles water profile with the higher bicarbonate...etc....there are different interactions going on. I use RO water and my bicarbonate is very low to non existent.
And I agree...ph should be checked at all stages...and possibly adjusted.
*My personal speculation is Nate doesn’t use a lot of Na in his beers.
couchsending
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He might not.. Shaun hill does however. Although not a lot. Based on what malt adds I’d say 40-50 ppm for lighter colored beers. Much more for darker styles.
Any ideas about how pH levels at different stages affect the overall taste? Did anyone of you really notice a difference of hop flavour extraction or polyphenol extraction depending on the pH in the Whirlpool or the Dry hop.
I've been measuring the pH of all the NEIPAS I've been drinking lately and I've seen quite a wide variety (4.1-4.7) between brewers but also sometimes between beers of the same brewer.
For the beers with a pH around 4.2, some of them tasted tart to me while some didn't. Making me wander what causes this difference. Use of lactic acid vs phosphoric acid?
I posted in more detail about this in another thread in this forum.
In general, does anyone have recommendations for pH throughout the whole brewing process of NEIPAS: mash, boil, knockout, going into the fermenter, end pH?
I've been measuring the pH of all the NEIPAS I've been drinking lately and I've seen quite a wide variety (4.1-4.7) between brewers but also sometimes between beers of the same brewer.
For the beers with a pH around 4.2, some of them tasted tart to me while some didn't. Making me wander what causes this difference. Use of lactic acid vs phosphoric acid?
I posted in more detail about this in another thread in this forum.
In general, does anyone have recommendations for pH throughout the whole brewing process of NEIPAS: mash, boil, knockout, going into the fermenter, end pH?
ThePaleAleIndian
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I think the pH at any stage and how it tastes is fairly dependent on yeast strain. Obviously with different strains producing different amounts of acid during fermentation, your final pH will vary with strain for a given knockout pH, and you may or may not like the results. But also, a given final pH will probably give you different impressions depending on interactions with residual sweetness, ester character, etc.
pH at the beginning of the boil IME affects the quality of the hop character you extract in the kettle. For one of my copitched attempts with our core trio here, I attempted to affect my final pH by not acidifying my mash. My mash pH was 5.79, and the beer ended up in the 4.4s, and tasted noticeably more tart than TH. That pH wasn't really that different from other attempts where I did target a mash pH and acidify. However, the kettle hop character I perceived in the finished beer was "old school," more west-coast-y. I had read something a while back that said that yeast tend to "set" the pH of their ambient environment to a desired level before setting to work, so this maybe supports that. I think Brulosophy had one or more xBmts on this.
In another attempt with the trio, I poured a pint and added about 55 ppm worth of CaCO3 to it, which is much more soluble in the presence of CO2. Unfortunately I wasn't able to measure the pH before and after the addition, but it would have been higher after the addition. My perception was that the beer tasted more sweet after the addition, so my lesson learned was that a batch that I plan to adjust this way may need tweaks to the grain bill, etc.
melville
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Kettle hopping was (4gal batch):
Citra extract at 30 minutes for 10 IBUs
25g Bravo @ 5min for 10 IBUs
-----------------
Tweaked ph to 5.0.
Whirlpool/Flameout starting at 170F
20g Citra for 30min
40g Citra for 20min
60g Citra for 10min
Beersmith est total was 55 IBUs.
melville
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Is on the high side it seems
melville
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Yep that's using my local water
melville
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I shifted some of my Cl to NaCl (in an effort to see if reducing Ca had a positive impact — this based on the Tree House profile #s posted by the mad fermentationist) and it had a positive mouthfeel impact on one beer, so I haven't stopped doing it.
OP
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isomerization
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Just want to clarify something here, are you checking pH at the end of the boil, adjusting down to 5.0 (what was the starting value?) and then continuing with the whirlpool? This sounds like it would take quite a bit of time? If you have a trick or something, I’d love to hear it before going this route, thanks!
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isomerization
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Have you used this yet? Trying to plan out a fermentation schedule...
