I think that if you add some Mosaic, you may get some of that bubblegum flavor you're looking for.
I don't know, it seems like that bubblegum thing is kind of a common thread in their core IPAs. I mean, I suppose it's possible that they are strategically using Mosaic in all their core IPAs. I guess I usually get more of a guava/mango/resin thing from Mosaic, although I think interaction with yeast choice has a lot to do with how that gets expressed.I think that if you add some Mosaic, you may get some of that bubblegum flavor you're looking for.
Update on my third attempt with the yeast blend. Getting closer.
OG 1.064 FG 1.009 6.25 gallons
66.7% Rahr 2-row
24.3% Weyermann Spelt
4.5% Carafoam
4.5% Carahell
60 min - 5 mL hopshot
10 min steep - 5 oz Columbus and 2 oz Citra
81|15.5|3.5 (SO4|T58|WB06) 11.6 g total
Pitched 75 F, Primary 62 F for 4 days ramped to 68 F till kegged
12 g KCl, 3.5 g MgSO4, 4 g citric acid, 4.5 mL lactic acid
Ca 1 | Mg 10 | Na 8 | SO4 41 | Cl 140 | K 150
Mash pH 5.2
48 hr dry hop 3 oz citra/1 oz amarillo
Day 10 dry hop 2 oz citra/1 oz amarillo
Cold crashed day 14
Overall I'm very happy with this attempt. It's full and finishes soft which I've failed to achieve in past batches. The yeast character is more prominent in both the aroma and flavor with a light peppery finish. Tried it side by side with a Green from December. Green had more yeast character and T58 really came across stronger. It also had the subtle bubblegum that my batch is missing. My batch also came across as hoppier but less balanced (too dry). Lastly, green came across with a much stronger malt aroma and flavor. I like the carahell sweetness but didnt get a ton of flavor. But that foam! For next batch I'm getting away from 2-row and want to start experimenting with a more characterful base malt (Pearl, MO, GP). I'm also thinking 75|20|5 for the yeast.
I plan to keep co-pitching but I'm excited to hear how blending trials go for you guys. Keep it coming! I love catching up on this thread.
That's about where it is for me too, and that's why I've been nervous to do it, though it's also guidance from the low na numbers on the TH profile.Melville, I just made a quick water profile in Bru'n Water using Epsom Salt, Gypsum, and Canning Salt (NaCl). In order to get to your ppm's without using KCl, the Na (Sodium) ppm is at 162. I have a feeling that might be at the threshold of being able to taste. My numbers look like this:
- Calcium: 40ppm
- Magnesium: 1ppm
- Sodium: 162ppm
- Sulfate: 100ppm
- Chloride: 250ppm
- Bicarbonate: -94ppm
Love the pics, sounds like a really tasty beer. Tell me about carahell — how does it compare to C20 or C40 in terms of adding sweetness, and you think it contributed nicely to your foam? Also force carbed and mash temps?Update on my third attempt with the yeast blend. Getting closer.
OG 1.064 FG 1.009 6.25 gallons
66.7% Rahr 2-row
24.3% Weyermann Spelt
4.5% Carafoam
4.5% Carahell
60 min - 5 mL hopshot
10 min steep - 5 oz Columbus and 2 oz Citra
81|15.5|3.5 (SO4|T58|WB06) 11.6 g total
Pitched 75 F, Primary 62 F for 4 days ramped to 68 F till kegged
12 g KCl, 3.5 g MgSO4, 4 g citric acid, 4.5 mL lactic acid
Ca 1 | Mg 10 | Na 8 | SO4 41 | Cl 140 | K 150
Mash pH 5.2
48 hr dry hop 3 oz citra/1 oz amarillo
Day 10 dry hop 2 oz citra/1 oz amarillo
Cold crashed day 14
Overall I'm very happy with this attempt. It's full and finishes soft which I've failed to achieve in past batches. The yeast character is more prominent in both the aroma and flavor with a light peppery finish. Tried it side by side with a Green from December. Green had more yeast character and T58 really came across stronger. It also had the subtle bubblegum that my batch is missing. My batch also came across as hoppier but less balanced (too dry). Lastly, green came across with a much stronger malt aroma and flavor. I like the carahell sweetness but didnt get a ton of flavor. But that foam! For next batch I'm getting away from 2-row and want to start experimenting with a more characterful base malt (Pearl, MO, GP). I'm also thinking 75|20|5 for the yeast.
I plan to keep co-pitching but I'm excited to hear how blending trials go for you guys. Keep it coming! I love catching up on this thread.
When you combine the two, are you going to take a FG reading of them together from the keg? If so let us know how it tastes!That subtle bubblegum is my current obsession. I must have it!! That was the main motivation for me fermenting the WB-06 separately and blending.
Just started the cold crash on the large S-04/T-58 batch this morning. Blending and kegging tomorrow!
I was thinking about it, but i actually think I'm going to throw the priming sugar in the keg first. That way I'll be able to purge the keg again before CO2 transferring the beers. So purge, primer, keg hops, rehydrated CBC-1, purge again, CO2 transfer the WB-06 batch then the S-04/T-58 batch, purge again. Should be getting started in a couple of hours here.When you combine the two, are you going to take a FG reading of them together from the keg? If so let us know how it tastes!
@ThePaleAleIndian I'm using citric acid from LD Carlson. The SDS from their website says it's >99% pure C6H8O7 and I cant find anything about other substances. Been a long time since I took chemistry...why would they include a cation? Stability?
https://storefront.ldcarlson.com/st...A&order-uom=&warehouse-id=2&item-number=6170A
@ThePaleAleIndian I'm using citric acid from LD Carlson. The SDS from their website says it's >99% pure C6H8O7 and I cant find anything about other substances. Been a long time since I took chemistry...why would they include a cation? Stability?
https://storefront.ldcarlson.com/st...A&order-uom=&warehouse-id=2&item-number=6170A
Also, agreed the color and flavor of the core beers is definitely different. I wouldnt be surprised if the recipes were fairly different between Julius, Green, and Haze.
@couchsending Correct, I finally gave it a shot. I also added Fermaid K at the end of the boil. I didnt notice any changes in fermentation, but dont have a lot of data points. Since I'm not harvesting and re-pitching I'm not sure the yeast really need calcium. Once I get closer on the malt flavor I plan to send a sample to Ward for analysis. I'm curious how much calcium the malt brings.
@melville force carbed and full volume BIAB mash at 156 F for 60 minutes. Finished drier than I expected, might need to check my kettle thermometer. Carahell definitely improved the foam, every pour has had thick fluffy head compared to past batches. Making me wonder if I really even need carafoam. Flavor is fairly neutral/sweet not as much character as the darker crystal malts. Biggest difference is the increase in body but my last couple batches either didnt have crystal or just a pinch.
Weve done this before with salt. Dont recall offhand but it was over 120 for na. No saltiness. Was in our brown lager so not exactly same style but we’ve toyed with even 150ish without salty result.I want to say between 30-40ppm on the Ca so that's the limiter on gypsum (I used Epsom to get the rest of the 100 ppm sulfate). The KCl is whatever it takes to get to 250ppm chloride after the Na from NaCl gets to something like 70-80ppm. I think I could skip the KCl and just go all NaCl — no hint of saltiness.
I believe @isomerization tested a Treehouse stout and there was one yeast present and it wasn't like anything he had tested? I could be wrong.
Anyone degassed any of their stout's and taken a FG? I would assume they're probably pretty high??
It doesn't really make any sense to be using any CBC-1 in their hoppy beers. There is more than enough yeast in suspension to sufficiently carbonate the beers without it.
NaCl to the boil, are you adding the mash and sparge amounts quoted? Or something different?That's about where it is for me too, and that's why I've been nervous to do it, though it's also guidance from the low na numbers on the TH profile.
When you're adding
NaCl to the boil, are you adding the mash and sparge amounts quoted? Or something different?
Wow, that really destroyed my post...Hmm... In the mash ( actually my mash water) I'm just adding all my gypsum and Epsom (and lactic). Once it's all in the kettle I add all my salt and KCl (note: I BIAB).
speaking of cashmere, I just opened my bag and the odor was dull and the pellets dark green/brown. Did you have a similar experience? I can't help but think they got oxidized before packaging. All my other varieties have been on pointView attachment 555615
The last batch, almost all Citra. Kicked this keg this weekend and filled it with another of my usual malt suspects and latest yeast % blend, but with lactose (3.5%) and vanilla beans. Mostly Galaxy and Cashmere with some Amarillo and Vic Secret.
Hoping I can use the lactose and vanilla dosing to get a feel for how much I'd need in a stout.
Blended and kegged my separate ferment attempt today. Managed to CO2 transfer from both the 1 gal jug and my 6.5 gal primary carboy using the process I outlined in post #1661. Went pretty well overall. I am naturally carbing this one with 2 g CBC-1 as conditioning yeast.
Initial impressions are very promising.
The small WB-06 batch came out to be the banana-bubblegum bomb I intended it to be. I really have to concentrate to get any clove from it (I perceived much, much more clove from my first attempt with 7.5% WB-06 co-pitched). I was intentionally a real jerk to that poor WB-06 to try to get the esters I wanted, and it finished high. Doesn't matter though. It has the ester profile I want, and I deliberately underprimed the keg (I'd rather force carb to completion than purge away my hop aroma). So if there are fermentables that go in with just under 3 quarts to 5 gal it's not a killer.
The S-04/T-58 batch seems to have turned out nicely too. Lots of tropical fruit character from the hops. It has that almost-pepper spice that I recognize from TH beers, but not as strong as TH. Comes through in the finish. I am not going to say that it needs more T-58 before I try it carbed and serving temp, but that might be the direction this goes. It is less orange-y than I was expecting with 15% T-58 (fermented cool, pitched even cooler).
Neither ferment is super tart, but the S-04/T-58 batch is more so. No surprise there i think.
I will post pics and the recipe(s) and more notes when it's carbed up.
Normal color, vibrant aroma.speaking of cashmere, I just opened my bag and the odor was dull and the pellets dark green/brown. Did you have a similar experience? I can't help but think they got oxidized before packaging. All my other varieties have been on point
GDI. Farmhouse Brewing never fails meNormal color, vibrant aroma.
I'm ready to hear you're results when you have them. I brewed a 6 gallon batch on Friday morning. The bill was 76% GP 20% carafoam, and 4% C20. I split off 1.5 gallon to ferment just like you did. Except I pitched and fermented the WB-06 at 78 degrees. After talking to brewing friends they said they've gone all the way up to 82F to get that bubblegum/banana flavor. The other 4.5 gallons were pitched with S-04 (80%), T-58 (20%), and fermented at 64F . I took a pour from the WB-06 yesterday to see what we got and it tasted delicious. No off flavors, just smooth ripe bananas and bubblegum flavor/aroma. Not sure which method I'm going to take with blending of the two kegs. I went high on pitching 3 grams of WB-06 for the 1.5 gallons. Most likely I will raise the temp of the s-04 and t-58 after another week and blend the Wb-06 into it, maybe CBC-1 too. We'll see what your results get you first.
I believe that T-58 has less expected attenuation than S04 and WB06Perhaps the belgian characteristics are suppressed through the vertical pressure of the beer in the fermenter...... getting some of the attenuative properties of the yeast without the esters???
Funny you should mention that, because before I knew anything about this thread, whenever I got that aroma/flavor from TH, I associated it with the hops. I guess it's one of those things like the banana-bubblegum character that could technically be yeast or hops.Re: "that spice". Just throwing this out there, confirmed they use hop extract, even late in the boil, including Chinook and Warrior. Chinook has a spice thing going on, I don't know about warrior (but it is in Haze). And extracts also come in Summit: "Specific aroma descriptors include pepper, incense, anise, orange, pink grapefruit and tangerine."
I know a lot of people get an onion thing in Summit pellets, but ... extracts might be "cleaner".
Forgive me if this has been discussed already..... I have not been able to keep up with this thread at all, but I know about it and have checked in from time to time.
At any rate, I was listening to a recent beer smith podcast with Chris White and John Blichmann - focusing on pressure fermentation - http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/01/1...s-white-john-blichmann-beersmith-podcast-163/
Basically, one of the things they were talking about is pressure negating the esters produced by various type of yeast..... even pressure only generated by the vertical column of beer in a commercial fermenter.
I remember seeing this thread and thinking it odd that treehouse would use a belgian strain in a blend for a beer like this. However, as I listened to this podcast, this thread popped into my head. Perhaps the belgian characteristics are suppressed through the vertical pressure of the beer in the fermenter...... getting some of the attenuative properties of the yeast without the esters???
Like I said, maybe this has all already been discussed, so sorry if it has - but, I thought it might be relevant if it hadn't been considered as the pressure levels would not translate from a commercial level to a home-brew level unless you applied that pressure via CO2.
Not that this helps too much, but someone earlier in this thread said something about having done some comparisons with Hill Farmstead yeast and that he was using a strain no one would expect. In the GBH podcast with Shaun Hill, he also mentions fermentation kinetics as something that gave him a hard time while he was adjusting to his new system. Seems like this might play a decent role in trying dial in this style.
This Doubleganger is incredible. The bubblegum/nana flavor is powerful.
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