I think that if you add some Mosaic, you may get some of that bubblegum flavor you're looking for.
Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?
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ThePaleAleIndian
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I don't know, it seems like that bubblegum thing is kind of a common thread in their core IPAs. I mean, I suppose it's possible that they are strategically using Mosaic in all their core IPAs. I guess I usually get more of a guava/mango/resin thing from Mosaic, although I think interaction with yeast choice has a lot to do with how that gets expressed.
But when I was smelling the airlock on the small WB-06 batch that I'm planning on blending and kegging tomorrow, the smell was SUPER reminiscent of my Doppelganger gravity sample that was degassed. That small WB-06 batch was a Citra-only wort, no dry hops. How good of a predictor that is I don't know. I may have more of an idea tomorrow at kegging.
couchsending
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You have no Calcium?
You need CA for yeast health, flocculation, etc.
From everything I’ve read you will lose 40-60% of your calcium from starting water profile to finished beer. From the beers I’ve sent in from another brewery with a “softer” profile/feel than TH I would say their beers would start with CA in the 150ish range. Low CA will not necessarily be a path I’ll be going down.
melville
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That's about where it is for me too, and that's why I've been nervous to do it, though it's also guidance from the low na numbers on the TH profile.
melville
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Love the pics, sounds like a really tasty beer. Tell me about carahell — how does it compare to C20 or C40 in terms of adding sweetness, and you think it contributed nicely to your foam? Also force carbed and mash temps?
When you combine the two, are you going to take a FG reading of them together from the keg? If so let us know how it tastes!
ThePaleAleIndian
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I was thinking about it, but i actually think I'm going to throw the priming sugar in the keg first. That way I'll be able to purge the keg again before CO2 transferring the beers. So purge, primer, keg hops, rehydrated CBC-1, purge again, CO2 transfer the WB-06 batch then the S-04/T-58 batch, purge again. Should be getting started in a couple of hours here.
However, I am going to take FGs on both the separate ferments, so hopefully I'll still get at least some insight on how the blend is going to turn out.
Livinon2
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@ThePaleAleIndian I'm using citric acid from LD Carlson. The SDS from their website says it's >99% pure C6H8O7 and I cant find anything about other substances. Been a long time since I took chemistry...why would they include a cation? Stability?
https://storefront.ldcarlson.com/st...A&order-uom=&warehouse-id=2&item-number=6170A
Also, agreed the color and flavor of the core beers is definitely different. I wouldnt be surprised if the recipes were fairly different between Julius, Green, and Haze.
@couchsending Correct, I finally gave it a shot. I also added Fermaid K at the end of the boil. I didnt notice any changes in fermentation, but dont have a lot of data points. Since I'm not harvesting and re-pitching I'm not sure the yeast really need calcium. Once I get closer on the malt flavor I plan to send a sample to Ward for analysis. I'm curious how much calcium the malt brings.
@melville force carbed and full volume BIAB mash at 156 F for 60 minutes. Finished drier than I expected, might need to check my kettle thermometer. Carahell definitely improved the foam, every pour has had thick fluffy head compared to past batches. Making me wonder if I really even need carafoam. Flavor is fairly neutral/sweet not as much character as the darker crystal malts. Biggest difference is the increase in body but my last couple batches either didnt have crystal or just a pinch.
https://storefront.ldcarlson.com/st...A&order-uom=&warehouse-id=2&item-number=6170A
Also, agreed the color and flavor of the core beers is definitely different. I wouldnt be surprised if the recipes were fairly different between Julius, Green, and Haze.
@couchsending Correct, I finally gave it a shot. I also added Fermaid K at the end of the boil. I didnt notice any changes in fermentation, but dont have a lot of data points. Since I'm not harvesting and re-pitching I'm not sure the yeast really need calcium. Once I get closer on the malt flavor I plan to send a sample to Ward for analysis. I'm curious how much calcium the malt brings.
@melville force carbed and full volume BIAB mash at 156 F for 60 minutes. Finished drier than I expected, might need to check my kettle thermometer. Carahell definitely improved the foam, every pour has had thick fluffy head compared to past batches. Making me wonder if I really even need carafoam. Flavor is fairly neutral/sweet not as much character as the darker crystal malts. Biggest difference is the increase in body but my last couple batches either didnt have crystal or just a pinch.
On my second week in the keg with the 82/15/3 ratio. 6.5 gallons went into the fermenter, 9 grams of S-04/ 1.65 grams of T-58/.4 grams WB06 all pitched together.
My best beer yet. Was shooting for a green clone but LHBS didn't have any galaxy so I used vic secret, citra, and mosaic
My best beer yet. Was shooting for a green clone but LHBS didn't have any galaxy so I used vic secret, citra, and mosaic
ThePaleAleIndian
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Great info, thanks! I had thought citric acid is a like a bicarbonate anion, where it only exists in aqueous solution. Doesn't look like that's the case. TIL
couchsending
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“In the case of Mg, malt supplies about 1 g Mg per kg of grain. Ca is supplied at the rate of about 0.3 g per kg of grain. If all that contentmakes it into the wort, that equates to about 60 ppm Ca and 150 ppm Mg.”
Interested to see what the results are if you do send a sample to ward labs.
ThePaleAleIndian
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Blended and kegged my separate ferment attempt today. Managed to CO2 transfer from both the 1 gal jug and my 6.5 gal primary carboy using the process I outlined in post #1661. Went pretty well overall. I am naturally carbing this one with 2 g CBC-1 as conditioning yeast.
Initial impressions are very promising.
The small WB-06 batch came out to be the banana-bubblegum bomb I intended it to be. I really have to concentrate to get any clove from it (I perceived much, much more clove from my first attempt with 7.5% WB-06 co-pitched). I was intentionally a real jerk to that poor WB-06 to try to get the esters I wanted, and it finished high. Doesn't matter though. It has the ester profile I want, and I deliberately underprimed the keg (I'd rather force carb to completion than purge away my hop aroma). So if there are fermentables that go in with just under 3 quarts to 5 gal it's not a killer.
The S-04/T-58 batch seems to have turned out nicely too. Lots of tropical fruit character from the hops. It has that almost-pepper spice that I recognize from TH beers, but not as strong as TH. Comes through in the finish. I am not going to say that it needs more T-58 before I try it carbed and serving temp, but that might be the direction this goes. It is less orange-y than I was expecting with 15% T-58 (fermented cool, pitched even cooler).
Neither ferment is super tart, but the S-04/T-58 batch is more so. No surprise there i think.
I will post pics and the recipe(s) and more notes when it's carbed up.
Initial impressions are very promising.
The small WB-06 batch came out to be the banana-bubblegum bomb I intended it to be. I really have to concentrate to get any clove from it (I perceived much, much more clove from my first attempt with 7.5% WB-06 co-pitched). I was intentionally a real jerk to that poor WB-06 to try to get the esters I wanted, and it finished high. Doesn't matter though. It has the ester profile I want, and I deliberately underprimed the keg (I'd rather force carb to completion than purge away my hop aroma). So if there are fermentables that go in with just under 3 quarts to 5 gal it's not a killer.
The S-04/T-58 batch seems to have turned out nicely too. Lots of tropical fruit character from the hops. It has that almost-pepper spice that I recognize from TH beers, but not as strong as TH. Comes through in the finish. I am not going to say that it needs more T-58 before I try it carbed and serving temp, but that might be the direction this goes. It is less orange-y than I was expecting with 15% T-58 (fermented cool, pitched even cooler).
Neither ferment is super tart, but the S-04/T-58 batch is more so. No surprise there i think.
I will post pics and the recipe(s) and more notes when it's carbed up.
Weve done this before with salt. Dont recall offhand but it was over 120 for na. No saltiness. Was in our brown lager so not exactly same style but we’ve toyed with even 150ish without salty result.
Interesting to see if you get a difference between K and Na if you ever stop the blending for chlorides.
couchsending
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I believe @isomerization tested a Treehouse stout and there was one yeast present and it wasn't like anything he had tested? I could be wrong.
Anyone degassed any of their stout's and taken a FG? I would assume they're probably pretty high??
Anyone degassed any of their stout's and taken a FG? I would assume they're probably pretty high??
melville
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The last batch, almost all Citra. Kicked this keg this weekend and filled it with another of my usual malt suspects and latest yeast % blend, but with lactose (3.5%) and vanilla beans. Mostly Galaxy and Cashmere with some Amarillo and Vic Secret.
Hoping I can use the lactose and vanilla dosing to get a feel for how much I'd need in a stout.
melville
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Wasn't there some T-58 in there too? Yes, I'd love to see some FG numbers on these.
couchsending
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Yeah if you go back it looks like it was one colony from a Double Shot he tested.
I also wonder if CBC-1/F2 is truly the yeast in the red colony. We know that CBC-1 is a killer or competitive yeast that doesn't eat maltotriose. Most wine yeasts don't eat maltotriose and most of
them are killer or competitive. So could what we think is CBC-1/F2 be some sort of other wine yeast?
It doesn't really make any sense to be using any CBC-1 in their hoppy beers. There is more than enough yeast in suspension to sufficiently carbonate the beers without it. It's mostly used on beers that have been aging for extended periods of time that might not have enough yeast left to successfully carb something by just introducing sugar. I can't remember did anyone do some sort of separate ferment test with just CBC-1?
71B is one of the only wine yeasts that isn't competitive but it doesn't eat Maltotriose and can be used for beer. It's said to produce a "fruit salad" type of profile.
K1V-1116 is said to produce peach and other stone fruit esters. It is competitive but is one of the only wine yeasts that can ferment maltotriose. Supposedly there is a brewery in Northeastern Canada that uses this as their house yeast??
I also wonder if CBC-1/F2 is truly the yeast in the red colony. We know that CBC-1 is a killer or competitive yeast that doesn't eat maltotriose. Most wine yeasts don't eat maltotriose and most of
them are killer or competitive. So could what we think is CBC-1/F2 be some sort of other wine yeast?
It doesn't really make any sense to be using any CBC-1 in their hoppy beers. There is more than enough yeast in suspension to sufficiently carbonate the beers without it. It's mostly used on beers that have been aging for extended periods of time that might not have enough yeast left to successfully carb something by just introducing sugar. I can't remember did anyone do some sort of separate ferment test with just CBC-1?
71B is one of the only wine yeasts that isn't competitive but it doesn't eat Maltotriose and can be used for beer. It's said to produce a "fruit salad" type of profile.
K1V-1116 is said to produce peach and other stone fruit esters. It is competitive but is one of the only wine yeasts that can ferment maltotriose. Supposedly there is a brewery in Northeastern Canada that uses this as their house yeast??
ThePaleAleIndian
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I don't know, just thinking out loud, but it seems like if you're using POF+ strains like WB-06/T-58 and you still want the O2 scavenging benefits of (partially?) naturally carbing, you might use a neutral strain that is marketed as a conditioning strain, like CBC-1. That way at least you're not as worried about what the POF+ strains might do post primary. The fact that it's a killer strain and may make it hard for people to harvest from cans is an added bonus. That is also one way to box with the 18-21 day timing.
I suppose one could argue that the sugar for naturally carbing isn't enough to make the POF+ strains produce significant unwanted phenolics. But I honestly don't know big of a risk that is on the commercial scale, and we may never know how big of a risk Nate thinks it would be.
Just speculating and playing devil's advocate of course, but i think that's at least conceivable.
melville
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Re: "that spice". Just throwing this out there, confirmed they use hop extract, even late in the boil, including Chinook and Warrior. Chinook has a spice thing going on, I don't know about warrior (but it is in Haze). And extracts also come in Summit: "Specific aroma descriptors include pepper, incense, anise, orange, pink grapefruit and tangerine."
I know a lot of people get an onion thing in Summit pellets, but ... extracts might be "cleaner".
I know a lot of people get an onion thing in Summit pellets, but ... extracts might be "cleaner".
JohnConnor
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When you're adding
NaCl to the boil, are you adding the mash and sparge amounts quoted? Or something different?
melville
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Hmm... In the mash ( actually my mash water) I'm just adding all my gypsum and Epsom (and lactic). Once it's all in the kettle I add all my salt and KCl (note: I BIAB).
JohnConnor
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Wow, that really destroyed my post...
I'm using Bru n'Water. I do not BIAB. So I have my mash and sparge additions. I'll add my gypsum/CaCl/Lactic to the mash/sparge water as it says. Any NaCl I want to add to boil, would I add the mash and sparge together and toss in boil? Or how are you calculating how much to use?
speaking of cashmere, I just opened my bag and the odor was dull and the pellets dark green/brown. Did you have a similar experience? I can't help but think they got oxidized before packaging. All my other varieties have been on point
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I'm ready to hear you're results when you have them. I brewed a 6 gallon batch on Friday morning. The bill was 76% GP 20% carafoam, and 4% C20. I split off 1.5 gallon to ferment just like you did. Except I pitched and fermented the WB-06 at 78 degrees. After talking to brewing friends they said they've gone all the way up to 82F to get that bubblegum/banana flavor. The other 4.5 gallons were pitched with S-04 (80%), T-58 (20%), and fermented at 64F . I took a pour from the WB-06 yesterday to see what we got and it tasted delicious. No off flavors, just smooth ripe bananas and bubblegum flavor/aroma. Not sure which method I'm going to take with blending of the two kegs. I went high on pitching 3 grams of WB-06 for the 1.5 gallons. Most likely I will raise the temp of the s-04 and t-58 after another week and blend the Wb-06 into it, maybe CBC-1 too. We'll see what your results get you first.
couchsending
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I’ve pretty much eliminated any mineral additions to sparge water. I’ll adjust sparge to a specific PH (usually 5.4-5.5 @ room) with lactic then take all mineral additions that were destined for sparge and add them at 10 min left in the boil. Ideally driving the wort PH down to the 5.1-5.2 range when all is said and done. Sometimes I’ll have to add some lactic at the end depending on how much CA I added in the kettle.
melville
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Normal color, vibrant aroma.
GDI. Farmhouse Brewing never fails me
ThePaleAleIndian
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Awesome!
Actually I did a similar thing as far as the temps for the batch I blended yesterday. Pitched the WB-06 batch at 77F and let it free rise at 78F ambient. When I tasted the hydrometer sample yesterday it was I think the same as what you describe, lots of banana/bubblegum flavor, maybe a slight bit of clove if I think about it and concentrate. Pitched the S-04/T-58 at 59F and fermented at a controlled 61F, raised the temp after its peak fermentation rate to 67F.
I think our big differences are the pitching rate (I intentionally underpitched the WB-06 batch at 0.35 g to 3-3.5 qt), and that I brewed the small batch separately instead of splitting the wort.
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Forgive me if this has been discussed already..... I have not been able to keep up with this thread at all, but I know about it and have checked in from time to time.
At any rate, I was listening to a recent beer smith podcast with Chris White and John Blichmann - focusing on pressure fermentation - http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/01/1...s-white-john-blichmann-beersmith-podcast-163/
Basically, one of the things they were talking about is pressure negating the esters produced by various type of yeast..... even pressure only generated by the vertical column of beer in a commercial fermenter.
I remember seeing this thread and thinking it odd that treehouse would use a belgian strain in a blend for a beer like this. However, as I listened to this podcast, this thread popped into my head. Perhaps the belgian characteristics are suppressed through the vertical pressure of the beer in the fermenter...... getting some of the attenuative properties of the yeast without the esters???
Like I said, maybe this has all already been discussed, so sorry if it has - but, I thought it might be relevant if it hadn't been considered as the pressure levels would not translate from a commercial level to a home-brew level unless you applied that pressure via CO2.
At any rate, I was listening to a recent beer smith podcast with Chris White and John Blichmann - focusing on pressure fermentation - http://beersmith.com/blog/2018/01/1...s-white-john-blichmann-beersmith-podcast-163/
Basically, one of the things they were talking about is pressure negating the esters produced by various type of yeast..... even pressure only generated by the vertical column of beer in a commercial fermenter.
I remember seeing this thread and thinking it odd that treehouse would use a belgian strain in a blend for a beer like this. However, as I listened to this podcast, this thread popped into my head. Perhaps the belgian characteristics are suppressed through the vertical pressure of the beer in the fermenter...... getting some of the attenuative properties of the yeast without the esters???
Like I said, maybe this has all already been discussed, so sorry if it has - but, I thought it might be relevant if it hadn't been considered as the pressure levels would not translate from a commercial level to a home-brew level unless you applied that pressure via CO2.
I believe that T-58 has less expected attenuation than S04 and WB06
ThePaleAleIndian
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Funny you should mention that, because before I knew anything about this thread, whenever I got that aroma/flavor from TH, I associated it with the hops. I guess it's one of those things like the banana-bubblegum character that could technically be yeast or hops.
I will say though, I perceived that character from my S-04/T-58 batch in the blend, and I used hop varieties I've used before without getting that character. I think as we continue to experiment it'll become more clear. Definitely more beer to brew and drink between now and then!
mikeroesoft
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Not that this helps too much, but someone earlier in this thread said something about having done some comparisons with Hill Farmstead yeast and that he was using a strain no one would expect. In the GBH podcast with Shaun Hill, he also mentions fermentation kinetics as something that gave him a hard time while he was adjusting to his new system. Seems like this might play a decent role in trying dial in this style.
Was lucky enough to grab some Double and Doppleganger today. Only 6 cans of each allotted with 12 cans of BBBright which did just a little bit more for me than regular Bright. Those will be given to guests Sunday or Eagles fans I bet with in case of a Pats loss. This Doubleganger though. This Doubleganger is incredible. The bubblegum/nana flavor is powerful.
What strain do people think Hill is using?
Easy folks.
Can anyone recommend a place to get proper stinky hops? Preferably that can ship to europe...
I went to a hop distributor yesterday and literally almost all american hops smelled the same. was depressing. A few spanish grown ones were ''acceptable'' but still not to make beer you wanna cry as you pour and go on a frenzy when you sip it.
Can anyone recommend a place to get proper stinky hops? Preferably that can ship to europe...
I went to a hop distributor yesterday and literally almost all american hops smelled the same. was depressing. A few spanish grown ones were ''acceptable'' but still not to make beer you wanna cry as you pour and go on a frenzy when you sip it.
ThePaleAleIndian
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Nice! I feel like that banana-bubblegum thing is more prominent in their higher gravity beers, like Doppel/Doubleganger. It really sticks out to me in Haze which is the same ABV.
mikeroesoft
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