Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[bbohanon]

I know all of this trial and error is really fun but honestly, I am betting (and based on my convos with some of the commercial craft brewers here that I talk with regularly), alot of these beers are much simpler to make than we make them out to be...

Some of the best NEIPA beers made are made with very simple grain bills, a semi to low complex hopping schedule (that can be done at home) and getting a repeatable consistent process.
The yeast is key to the larger puzzle, but if you can find a yeast that you can dial in and make work for you and your beer, the rest (and more important parts) comes down to:

- Process (cleanliness/beer handling from grain to glass (O2 exposure, again..cleanliness)
- Water Profile (knowing your brewing water and whats in it)
- Hop Freshness
- Mash PH
- Fermentation temp and yeast handling (Pitching the right amount at the right temp)
- Process Again (this is huge so I mention it again as its that important with beer handling, O2 exposure during xfer and cleanliness)

Too many folks (including myself on regular occasions when attempting a new style) try to over complicate a beer when it does not need to be as complicated to yield results you want.

The other thing I cannot stress enough is that I talk with fellow brewers that brew a NEIPA 4-5 times and still cannot nail it down and start to get frustrated and toss the baby out with the bathwater and do something completely different with the recipe/etc that renders all the data you collected from the first 4-5 batches useless (provided they collected any data at all).
Start small and simple. Adjust and tweak but to get this beer and any beer dialed in, it will have to be brewed, rebrewed, and rebrewed a dozen or more times (in my case, I think I brewed my recipe getting it dialed in over 30+ times or more).

Take DETAILED NOTES on what went good/bad with each batch. Get some advice from other brewers on your findings (here or in a HBC) and rebrew it over again. I have a spiral bound notebook that is filled with data from my NEIPA batches that I look at on brew days and chuckle at some of my notes. Some of the data I captured I actually find inspiration on with other beers that I forgot about until I re-read the notes.

Rinse and repeat and you will see the improvements. It may come slow, but it will come.

The other thing I did was keep samples (bottles) from previous batches to compare the next batch with to see if what you think was better or worse, really is. Your perception of that last batch is as good as the last beer. If you consume it all you may not remember it as well as you think you did.

Just some advice from someone who beats their head against the wall as we all do with these beers and I have learned that keeping really good notes, having a solid repeatable, consistent process along with very good cleaning habits, good ingredients and proper beer handling from grain to glass makes the difference more times than not.

Cheers!

 

[Jmash]

007 and S-04 are the same yeast.. it's just potentially easier to mix with dry. However If 007/S-04 is the predomenant yeast there is no reason you couldn't build up a starter of 007 then just add a gram here or there of the other yeasts.

I think the acid production and tartness is key to amplifying the "juice" like nature... you would not get this with 1318.

Anyone done their PH corrections with Citric acid in any of their yeast blend attempts? That's next up for me I think.

I always use citric as opposed to lactic acid to bring my mash down to the desired 5.2ish after my other adjustments. I'm very happy with the results but never get the TH bubblegum taste. Usually use 1318. Going to try the dry yeast mix for next Saturdays batch.

 

[couchsending]

The bubblegum is from the WB-06. No way you could get it without that yeast.

 

[duelerx]

For my tastes, T-58 at 4-5%. For WB-06 it's trickier because everyone is going to have a different threshold, but for me somewhere between 10-15 percent (My ranges explored 30%, 7%, 15%, 25%, 12% several times). My ferm temps have been 65F. I pitch all at once, at the recommended range, rehydrated, at 85F and let it settle to 65F. Note: I use the CBC-1 yeast to naturally condition once fermentation is complete — YMMV.

How do you get these ratios in grams for a 5 gallon batch?

 

[couchsending]

How do you get these ratios in grams for a 5 gallon batch?

Math

 

[Northern_Brewer]

For me, I ALWAYS pitch my yeast (any and ALL yeast) at the temp I will be fermenting at.

I have always lived by the code of getting the yeast/starter as close to the pitching temp as the wort will be fermenting at and then pitching it into the wort at that same temp (so 65 deg starter into 65deg wort) so there is no risk to shocking the yeast in any way and most craft breweries follow this same mentality or pitch cold (from a chilled yeast brink).

Don't forget we're talking dried yeast here, which is intended to be hydrated at around 80F - and many yeast grow best at around 85F, we cruelly force them to ferment at lower temperatures in order to improve the flavour profile. See eg www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/ "Fermentis recommends that top fermenting (ale) yeasts are rehydrated at a temperature between 25-29°C (77-84°F)".

Yes it's a little bit different doing a separate rehydration step to rehydrating in the wort, but in this context I wouldn't worry too much about pitching warm.

 

[melville]

Don't forget we're talking dried yeast here, which is intended to be hydrated at around 80F - and many yeast grow best at around 85F, we cruelly force them to ferment at lower temperatures in order to improve the flavour profile. See eg www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/ "Fermentis recommends that top fermenting (ale) yeasts are rehydrated at a temperature between 25-29°C (77-84°F)".

Yes it's a little bit different doing a separate rehydration step to rehydrating in the wort, but in this context I wouldn't worry too much about pitching warm.

Right. Again everything here is in the context of working with these TH yeasts, So I'm pitching yeast that has been rehydrated at 85F into 85F wort. There has been some evidence that a "hot" pitch may add some glycerol (mouthfeel), but really for me it has the convenience of making brew night go a bit faster, and had no negative impact in the beers that I made. I probably wouldn't do this with liquid yeast before doing a batch at recommended pitch temp for comparison.

(I doubt TH is doing this, but who knows)

 

[melville]

How do you get these ratios in grams for a 5 gallon batch?

I am using the mid-range of Fermentis' recs. which works out to 2.27g yeast / gallon. Multiply 2.27 by your gallons of wort, then divide it up by the ratio you plan on using.

 

[bbohanon]

Don't forget we're talking dried yeast here, which is intended to be hydrated at around 80F - and many yeast grow best at around 85F, we cruelly force them to ferment at lower temperatures in order to improve the flavour profile. See eg www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/ "Fermentis recommends that top fermenting (ale) yeasts are rehydrated at a temperature between 25-29°C (77-84°F)".

Yes it's a little bit different doing a separate rehydration step to rehydrating in the wort, but in this context I wouldn't worry too much about pitching warm.

Agreed as rehydration and pitching into wort to me are 2 different things.

Rehydrating the dry yeast in warmer water (much smaller volume) is not the issue, the larger problem is folks pitching the yeast into a volume of 5gal plus wort that is sitting at 80 and walking away from it thinking everything will work out..Too many new brewers make this mistake and wonder why their beer gives them headaches and tastes off.

You pitch a small cup of warm rehydrated dry yeast into properly chilled wort, to me, you are still pitching properly.

As others have mentioned liquid yeast is another animal. I always let my starters settle, get it to as close to my chilled wort temp, decant and pitch.

 

[NJGeorge]

The bubblegum is from the WB-06. No way you could get it without that yeast.

Fermenting at what temp?

 

[melville]

Fermenting at what temp?

Based on pics at TH — 65F for the primary. 60F for conditioning.

(note to self: bring down my conditioning temps.)

 

[skibb]

I get tons of bubblegum out of T-58 - fermenting 75-80 F

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

The bubblegum is from the WB-06. No way you could get it without that yeast.

While I think WB-06 does contribute, I think from my trials so far that T-58, when fermented at warmer temps (70+), adds huge juicyfruit gum aroma. (Are we equating juicyfruit gum with generic "bubblegum" aroma?)

I have not yet done a ferment at mid-60's yet to see if that disappears but I would expect that it would decrease at the lower ferment temperature.

FWIW I just put a Citra-Galaxy Pale Ale into a keg for CBC-1 carbing; I only used S04/T58 co-pitched at an 80/20 ratio. Aroma is ridiculously good and there are obvious notes of juicyfruit gum (smelled a stick of gum and the beer sample side-by-side.

 

[melville]

I get tons of bubblegum out of T-58 - fermenting 75-80 F

Sounds right to me. Obviously YMMV, but TH doesn't come off as estery as you/we think it does/did — isolated a TH beer feels very balanced and whatever suspicious things the non-english strains are doing in there are just slightly north of threshold levels (and sometimes below). A fun comparison — TH Green vs. Burlington Beer Co beers where 1318 is the known yeast. TH definitely more "fun" going on which I'd already noticed when comparing my own attempts vs BBCO.

 

[couchsending]

While I think WB-06 does contribute, I think from my trials so far that T-58, when fermented at warmer temps (70+), adds huge juicyfruit gum aroma. (Are we equating juicyfruit gum with generic "bubblegum" aroma?)

I have not yet done a ferment at mid-60's yet to see if that disappears but I would expect that it would decrease at the lower ferment temperature.

FWIW I just put a Citra-Galaxy Pale Ale into a keg for CBC-1 carbing; I only used S04/T58 co-pitched at an 80/20 ratio. Aroma is ridiculously good and there are obvious notes of juicyfruit gum (smelled a stick of gum and the beer sample side-by-side.

Copitched and fermented at 65-66?

I got nothing but pepper at 25% T-58 with S-04 fermented at 64.

 

[melville]

While I think WB-06 does contribute, I think from my trials so far that T-58, when fermented at warmer temps (70+), adds huge juicyfruit gum aroma. (Are we equating juicyfruit gum with generic "bubblegum" aroma?)

I have not yet done a ferment at mid-60's yet to see if that disappears but I would expect that it would decrease at the lower ferment temperature.

FWIW I just put a Citra-Galaxy Pale Ale into a keg for CBC-1 carbing; I only used S04/T58 co-pitched at an 80/20 ratio. Aroma is ridiculously good and there are obvious notes of juicyfruit gum (smelled a stick of gum and the beer sample side-by-side.

definitely Juicy Fruit the actual brand of gum (more banana driven IMO) vs Generic Pink Bubble Gum.

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

Copitched and fermented at 65-66?

I got nothing but pepper at 25% T-58 with S-04 fermented at 64.

Nope. Co-pitched at ~75F. No temp control. Ambient air temp in cellar was 68-70F during whole ferment. Didn't want pepper flavor...which I expected to get at lower temps...as you confirm

 

[melville]

Copitched and fermented at 65-66?

I got nothing but pepper at 25% T-58 with S-04 fermented at 64.

In my starter experiments T-58 was insanely fruity with hints of that juicy fruit thing and I was pretty excited. Several days later that had transitioned considerably, the esters were more subdued and I definitely noticed that pepper. This was around 70F.

 

[melville]

Nope. Co-pitched at ~75F. No temp control. Ambient air temp in cellar was 68-70F during whole ferment. Didn't want pepper flavor...which I expected to get at lower temps...as you confirm

more phenolics under seventy, more esters over 70. But... this makes me think that T-58's role is that spice character with just hints of fruit and banana given their temps at TH, that's why I've limited its role in my efforts (though after my last visit now I may inch it up a bit and pull back a hair on wb06).


(I've also limited it because it is a beast fermenter and is easily the fastest of the three)

 

[NJGeorge]

Based on pics at TH — 65F for the primary. 60F for conditioning.

(note to self: bring down my conditioning temps.)

Since everyone is getting "closer" using higher temperatures to get those esters, what IF TH purposely changed or calibrated the temperature control to read 66 but it was really set at 76 to throw people off??? Haha just an idea.. I don't taste any spice or pepper in Julius or Green. I get fruit, melon or banana if anything.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Will S-04 by itself exhibit any level of the 'bubblegum' characteristic if pushed to higher temperatures in NE IPA's? Or is yeast blending required?

 

[stonebrewer]

Will S-04 by itself exhibit any level of the 'bubblegum' characteristic if pushed to higher temperatures in NE IPA's? Or is yeast blending required?

S04 can produce esters that smell/taste like bubblegum.

 

[couchsending]

I thought S-04 was nasty fermented warm... like tangy yogurt gross

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I thought S-04 was nasty fermented warm... like tangy yogurt gross

Where would you place its optimal and maximum ferment temperatures?

 

[Dog House Brew]

S04 can produce esters that smell/taste like bubblegum.

Yes it can for sure. I'm not a user of S-04, but my house yeast is 007. If I ferment above 68 it is super fruity.
I pitch it at 62 and let it run up to 68. Love the yeast! Wish I had, or ever tasted, any TH beer. I'd love to have something to add here.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I pitch 1318 at 85, and it's thrown off some flavors that remind me of chocolate and vanilla. I f'ing love it. Any "off flavors" that you enjoy, are not off flavors, imo. Except ones that give you headaches or make you blind.

 

[Tijuanatovar]

Reporting back on my experience with these yeast findings. However I've tweaked them a little and left out WB-06 this time around. I'll do a side by side and photo comparison when I get the chance but my blend of SO4/Conan/T-58 bottle conditioned with CBC turned out really well. Better than I expected. Ratios: 45/45/10. Taste and smell are pretty full of a sort of creamy vanilla fruitiness. So far so good. I'd def keep the additional yeasts to a smaller ratio. Off topic but maybe helpful. Monkish sent me this about their yeasts:

We use a couple of blends of different English yeast strains that consists often of 1098/007, so4, Conan, and/or 1318 . Biggest thing for us is predictability for a production setting versus what we might actually prefer but more finnicky.

 

[NJGeorge]

Reporting back on my experience with these yeast findings. However I've tweaked them a little and left out WB-06 this time around. I'll do a side by side and photo comparison when I get the chance but my blend of SO4/Conan/T-58 bottle conditioned with CBC turned out really well. Better than I expected. Ratios: 45/45/10. Taste and smell are pretty full of a sort of creamy vanilla fruitiness. So far so good. I'd def keep the additional yeasts to a smaller ratio. Off topic but maybe helpful. Monkish sent me this about their yeasts:

We use a couple of blends of different English yeast strains that consists often of 1098/007, so4, Conan, and/or 1318 . Biggest thing for us is predictability for a production setting versus what we might actually prefer but more finnicky.

Those findings sound sweet. What was the flavor profile like? That's awesome Monkish got back to you. By the way, I harvested some Monish yeast from the bottom of a can and currently have a batch fermenting with that yeast. I will report back my findings once it's done, so far its fermenting like a beast and smells wonderful. If anyone has testing capabilities I can send some yeast out to be tested.

 

[Tijuanatovar]

So far 50/50 SO4 wth any other "juicy" yeast has proven really well for me. I love how the body is really full. Maybe due to the oats or the high amounts of chloride?? Flavor profile is spot on for big tropical fruit smoothie, regardless of the hop variety I've thrown at it. I'm less and less for" cloning" particular brews and more for fine tuning each batch to get a particular vibe. I would think chefs and other pro brewers would think the same. Steal like artist I say and make what you want to consume.. aand sometimes that's in large amounts of its dank af!

 

[Tijuanatovar]

After 2 days in bottle conditioning. Here's SO4/T-58... 3:1 ratio... conditioned w/ CBC-1. Slight juicy fruit gum but mostly reminiscent of traditional orange Julius. Hops were 1:1 citra and azacca w/ some Columbus/centennial/motueka in the kettle. Almost prefer the SO4/Conan/T-58 blend more. Just glad they clock in w/ slightly diff profiles. Still have my SO4/1318/T-58 batch to report on. Cheers

 

[werral]

Will S-04 by itself exhibit any level of the 'bubblegum' characteristic if pushed to higher temperatures in NE IPA's? Or is yeast blending required?

I just made an IPA with OYL-006(same yeast as S-04). I fermented at 19C(66F) and I get a lot of that "Juicy Fruit" gum aroma. I dry hopped with Simcoe, Chinook and Centennial and the bubble gum aroma over shadows the dank piney characters so much so that you wouldn't guess those dank hops were in the beer. The beer is delicious, but I would use this yeast with fruitier hops next time.

Cheers!

 

[TheHairyHop]

Pretty sure my cold side process is preventing any noticeable oxidation. 79% pale 19% oats 2% honey malt

 

[Jwin]

Pretty sure my cold side process is preventing any noticeable oxidation. 79% pale 19% oats 2% honey malt

Wooooowww
Nice.

 

[The_Dirty_Spring]

For those of you conditioning with CBC-1, are you pitching with dextrose or DME/wort/speise? If the latter, how do you calculate amounts for given desired carbonation, since it won't convert the maltotriose? Thanks!

 

[NJGeorge]

Pretty sure my cold side process is preventing any noticeable oxidation. 79% pale 19% oats 2% honey malt

Looks good! What do you mean by cold side process? Hop additions? Fermenting? Natural carb?

 

[NJGeorge]

After 2 days in bottle conditioning. Here's SO4/T-58... 3:1 ratio... conditioned w/ CBC-1. Slight juicy fruit gum but mostly reminiscent of traditional orange Julius. Hops were 1:1 citra and azacca w/ some Columbus/centennial/motueka in the kettle. Almost prefer the SO4/Conan/T-58 blend more. Just glad they clock in w/ slightly diff profiles. Still have my SO4/1318/T-58 batch to report on. Cheers

Looks just like Julius! Not sure if you mentioned it before, but what temp are you fermenting at?

 

[Tijuanatovar]

Looks just like Julius! Not sure if you mentioned it before, but what temp are you fermenting at?

Pitching at 80F and letting it cool over 24 hrs ish to mid-upper 60s then a 2-3 day D rest at 70-73 with a 2-3 day dry hop only addition at the end. Been working well for me. To each their own.

 

[thehaze]

I wish to try my luck with the blend of these 3 yeasts.

I was thinking og going 85% S-04, 10% WB-06 and 5% T-58. Would the T-58 be too much at 5%?

I am thinking I want the attenuation of WB-06, but not that tartness.

 

[overthebarsbrewing]

For those of you who have done CBC-1 keg carbing w/ a spunding valve, have you noticed any variation in the time it's taken to get up to targeted PSI?

My 1st two kegs, the PSI was above 20PSI within ~4-5 days and hit target of 30PSI by day 7.

I now have 3 different kegs that I set up CBC-1 carbing. I used same amounts of priming sugar and pitched same amounts of CBC-1 in all 3 kegs. They all have been slow to build up pressure and are all slightly different. It's now been 8 days; the 3 kegs are at 18, 14, and 12 PSI. I've sprayed the tops of the kegs w/ starsan to try and look for any gas leaks. Nothing obvious. I'm wondering if this is a yeast thing or maybe just these 3 kegs need a complete gasket overhaul to make sure that they are as tightly sealed as possible for the natural-carbing.

 

[TheHairyHop]

For those of you who have done CBC-1 keg carbing w/ a spunding valve, have you noticed any variation in the time it's taken to get up to targeted PSI?

My 1st two kegs, the PSI was above 20PSI within ~4-5 days and hit target of 30PSI by day 7.

I now have 3 different kegs that I set up CBC-1 carbing. I used same amounts of priming sugar and pitched same amounts of CBC-1 in all 3 kegs. They all have been slow to build up pressure and are all slightly different. It's now been 8 days; the 3 kegs are at 18, 14, and 12 PSI. I've sprayed the tops of the kegs w/ starsan to try and look for any gas leaks. Nothing obvious. I'm wondering if this is a yeast thing or maybe just these 3 kegs need a complete gasket overhaul to make sure that they are as tightly sealed as possible for the natural-carbing.

your spunding valves could have leaks. If you're priming with sugar, you don't need a spunding valve. Just do the calculations, seal the keg, and walk away. spunding valves are only really useful for keeping a positive pressure inside a fermenter or carbonating with residual sugars