Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

[melville]

Being that we are getting such a noticeable presence of t58 even pitched at such extremely low ratio suggests that t58 grows and gets to work very fast. This could be beneficial to o2 scrubbing during refermentation. Although i still don't understand why they would be pitching additional yeast for refermentation at all. There should be plenty of the primary yeasts left for a beer that is being cranked out in 2-3 week turnaround.

This naturally carbing thing has been driving me nuts, so I asked about it in the pro brewer Reddit. Got a few responses, but their scenarios are different — one did add priming sugar in a tank, mix then put into bottles/kegs and the packaged beer referments with the yeast already in the beer. One specifically mentioned it wouldn't be ideal for hoppy beers, because it would add at least a week and probably two. None of the answers seem to grasp the concept of my example: putting already conditioned (and cold) beer into cans that are sold to customers and drinkable immediately (vs packaged, sit for two weeks, sell)

 

[savylemons]

This naturally carbing thing has been driving me nuts, so I asked about it in the pro brewer Reddit. Got a few responses, but their scenarios are different — one did add priming sugar in a tank, mix then put into bottles/kegs and the packaged beer referments with the yeast already in the beer. One specifically mentioned it wouldn't be ideal for hoppy beers, because it would add at least a week and probably two. None of the answers seem to grasp the concept of my example: putting already conditioned (and cold) beer into cans that are sold to customers and drinkable immediately (vs packaged, sit for two weeks, sell)

I asked nate on Twitter if they only naturally carbonate (as listed on their growlers) or if they force carbonate anywhere along the line, but he has not responded. From what I can tell from various pictures in the brewery, beer is going into the brite tank at 32f, and is being held in brite at that temp and that it's already carbonated at that point. Whatever they are doing with yeast it must in the fermenters. Didn't nate only say they don't ferment under pressure (via spunding valve) or did he also say they don't dry hop under pressure?

 

[melville]

I asked nate on Twitter if they only naturally carbonate (as listed on their growlers) or if they force carbonate anywhere along the line, but he has not responded. From what I can tell from various pictures in the brewery, beer is going into the brite tank at 32f, and is being held in brite at that temp and that it's already carbonated at that point. Whatever they are doing with yeast it must in the fermenters. Didn't nate only say they don't ferment under pressure (via spunding valve) or did he also say they don't dry hop under pressure?

You're right, specifically fermenting under pressure. That's an important distinction!

Also found the answer to my question from before:

"it takes ~ 14 hours to produce wort on double brew day and 18-21 days to ferment / dry hop / condition."

https://twitter.com/treehousenate/status/670742271952887808

(That's specifically about Julius, but we can assume similar)

 

[melville]

Still I come back to this. We know they add CBC-1/F2. If you add that yeast to referment are you setting off a chain of events that then require 1-2 weeks of time at room temperature to finish regardless of C02 already in solution?

 

[savylemons]

Still I come back to this. We know they add CBC-1/F2. If you add that yeast to referment are you setting off a chain of events that then require 1-2 weeks of time at room temperature to finish regardless of C02 already in solution?

Another option I thought of regarding the conditioning yeast(s)...I recall while on a tour of a rather large commercial brewery (Boulevard) while watching the bottling line run they mentioned that they add just a touch of new yeast and the smallest amount of sugar to the already carbonated beer being bottled. They do this so that any o2 that gets introduced while bottling is quickly used up by the yeast, not for carbonation, and it greatly increases the shelf stability of the beer. It makes sense that they could be doing this. Maybe F2 alone didn't alter their primary yeast blend enough to render it unusable (more so from yeast lab companies than homebrewers, think about how many breweries are using Conan now) so a small amount of T58 is added, which may also get to work scavenging o2 quicker?

 

[isomerization]

Another option I thought of regarding the conditioning yeast(s)...I recall while on a tour of a rather large commercial brewery (Boulevard) while watching the bottling line run they mentioned that they add just a touch of new yeast and the smallest amount of sugar to the already carbonated beer being bottled. They do this so that any o2 that gets introduced while bottling is quickly used up by the yeast, not for carbonation, and it greatly increases the shelf stability of the beer. It makes sense that they could be doing this. Maybe F2 alone didn't alter their primary yeast blend enough to render it unusable (more so from yeast lab companies than homebrewers, think about how many breweries are using Conan now) so a small amount of T58 is added, which may also get to work scavenging o2 quicker?

I think this is probably the easiest explanation, the CBC-1/F2 is really only there as a shelf stabilizer.

From my digging around on the internet, it looks like there are a lot of brewers (and homebrewers) that allow fermentation to go ~48 hrs, then slap on a spunding valve to capture CO2 and carbonate as the beer finishes up. The added pressure does slow the yeast down a bit, but we all know we can go grain to glass and have peak NE IPA in under 3 weeks easy.

I'm sure this is overly simplistic, but for us trying to recapitulate their process, I bet it works.

 

[melville]

I think this is probably the easiest explanation, the CBC-1/F2 is really only there as a shelf stabilizer.

From my digging around on the internet, it looks like there are a lot of brewers (and homebrewers) that allow fermentation to go ~48 hrs, then slap on a spunding valve to capture CO2 and carbonate as the beer finishes up. The added pressure does slow the yeast down a bit, but we all know we can go grain to glass and have peak NE IPA in under 3 weeks easy.

I'm sure this is overly simplistic, but for us trying to recapitulate their process, I bet it works.

The only issue here is that they don't (or didn't or claim not to) spund during fermentation. I don't know how much CO2 can be captured while dry hopping/conditioning in the 10-14(?) days after fermentation, but based on my homebrew, not that much.

In the case of Boulevard, that conditioning process takes 2 weeks to happen in the bottle. That's not happening at Tree House.

 

[melville]

Update on my last beer: I don't get generic bubblegum flavor, but I do get juicy fruit gum (I went and bought the gum) on the nose of this beer. Doesn't quite come through in the taste — I think because for a fantasy flavor like that to translate you need some sweetness, and this beer is bone dry. My second attempt is starting to slow down — added the first dry hop on day 2. Keeping ferm temps at 65. Deliberately put this one in a better bottle, so I wouldn't be able to pull samples as often from the spigot on the Spiedel.

 

[marshallb]

Update here too. I finished around 1.015 and it's under 40lbs of gas right now (just transferred to kegs).
I did 2 beers, one has Mandarina, Columbus, Centennial, and Azacca in it. For some reason that beer came out very peppery (I think the Mandarina German hops mixed with Columbus and T58 were likely just too much spice).
The 2nd beer is all Citra and tastes amazing. Smells even better, but it's lacking the biscuit flavor Treehouse's core beers have.
Adjustments for next batch:
Swap Pilsner and Pale 2 Row for Golden Promise
Take out Vienna
Add in More Aromatic with the Biscuit malt
I find it difficult to add in enough biscuit malt and keep the SRM where it needs to be.
I think the esters are close. It smells like a Treehouse beer. It just doesn't have the complete malt flavor it needs.

 

[melville]

Update here too. I finished around 1.015 and it's under 40lbs of gas right now (just transferred to kegs).
I did 2 beers, one has Mandarina, Columbus, Centennial, and Azacca in it. For some reason that beer came out very peppery (I think the Mandarina German hops mixed with Columbus and T58 were likely just too much spice).
The 2nd beer is all Citra and tastes amazing. Smells even better, but it's lacking the biscuit flavor Treehouse's core beers have.
Adjustments for next batch:
Swap Pilsner and Pale 2 Row for Golden Promise
Take out Vienna
Add in More Aromatic with the Biscuit malt
I find it difficult to add in enough biscuit malt and keep the SRM where it needs to be.
I think the esters are close. It smells like a Treehouse beer. It just doesn't have the complete malt flavor it needs.

Very nice. So you're happy with your percentages I take it? (I think you did 86%:7%:7%).

 

[marshallb]

Very nice. So you're happy with your percentages I take it? (I think you did 86%:7%:7%).

Not 100%, no. I'm still going to watch what results others get and I'm open to feedback & adjustments. I'm just not sure what to do without the malt being closer.

 

[isomerization]

The only issue here is that they don't (or didn't or claim not to) spund during fermentation. I don't know how much CO2 can be captured while dry hopping/conditioning in the 10-14(?) days after fermentation, but based on my homebrew, not that much.

In the case of Boulevard, that conditioning process takes 2 weeks to happen in the bottle. That's not happening at Tree House.

This is also assuming everything he says is 100% true. They could consider capping the fermenter after a few days to not be "Fermenting under pressure" Also 15 ft tall conicals will have ~6 psi of pressure at the bottom, so that's kind of under pressure, lol.

Update here too. I finished around 1.015 and it's under 40lbs of gas right now (just transferred to kegs).
I did 2 beers, one has Mandarina, Columbus, Centennial, and Azacca in it. For some reason that beer came out very peppery (I think the Mandarina German hops mixed with Columbus and T58 were likely just too much spice).
The 2nd beer is all Citra and tastes amazing. Smells even better, but it's lacking the biscuit flavor Treehouse's core beers have.
Adjustments for next batch:
Swap Pilsner and Pale 2 Row for Golden Promise
Take out Vienna
Add in More Aromatic with the Biscuit malt
I find it difficult to add in enough biscuit malt and keep the SRM where it needs to be.
I think the esters are close. It smells like a Treehouse beer. It just doesn't have the complete malt flavor it needs.

I like the grain bill adjustments. What was mash and ferm temp? I missed a LOT of posts being off the grid (lake trip) for the last 4 days or so. I feel like I have always been able to get the aroma part down, its the taste/mouthfeel that make TH beers so special. Any closer with this batch here?

 

[marshallb]

I like the grain bill adjustments. What was mash and ferm temp? I missed a LOT of posts being off the grid (lake trip) for the last 4 days or so. I feel like I have always been able to get the aroma part down, its the taste/mouthfeel that make TH beers so special. Any closer with this batch here?

Thanks. I'll know more once it's carbed. For me carbonation can have a pretty significant effect on body and mouthfeel.
I mashed at 157 for 60 minutes and fly sparged for 45 min. It was a very slow sparge without rice hulls in this grain bill FYI, but I also double mill my grain.
My fermentation was a 4 step schedule.
Day 1 – 2 grams of WB-06 at 74* for 24 hours
Day 2 – reduce controller temperature to 60* and pitch 22 grams of S04 and 2 grams of T58
Day 5 – raise temp to 70* and dry hop for 4 days
Day 9 – cold crash for 2.5 days and keg

I'd say the Citra beer is my closest attempt ever. Definitely a lot closer than the WY3638 beers I made previously. There are so many moving pieces to Treehouse beers. For now I'd be happy just nailing the grain/esters/softness.

 

[TheHairyHop]

In pretty sure that "naturally carbonated" and "not fermenting under pressure" are incompatible unless differentiated by semantics. My guess remains that some wort from the newest batch is mixed yeast and added to a fermented beer in order to carbonate.

On another note, I love you guys and all, but I've never come close to tasting biscuit in a Julius. The malt profile is as gentle as any I've tasted. I'm also sure that the srm of Green is too light to contain any malt that tastes biscuit - like

 

[melville]

In pretty sure that "naturally carbonated" and "not fermenting under pressure" are incompatible unless differentiated by semantics. My guess remains that some wort from the newest batch is mixed yeast and added to a fermented beer in order to carbonate.

On another note, I love you guys and all, but I've never come close to tasting biscuit in a Julius. The malt profile is as gentle as any I've tasted. I'm also sure that the srm of Green is too light to contain any malt that tastes biscuit - like

Julius is definitely dark enough I think for some specialty malt. I think it's pale and munich and either/or/both carafoam and c20/40. Not their best looking beer.

This guy has some TH photos shot under fairly consistent light, here's Curiosity 32 (pale & dextrin)
http://mikesbrews.blogspot.com/2017/04/curiosity-32.html

here's an older Julius:
http://mikesbrews.blogspot.com/2015/07/julius.html

here's a new Jjjuliusss (same base as Julius):
http://mikesbrews.blogspot.com/2016/09/jjjuliusss.html

 

[lilbova3]

My guess remains that some wort from the newest batch is mixed yeast and added to a fermented beer in order to carbonate.

Completely agree, I said this earlier. They are probably krausening. German brewers have only been doing it for hundreds of years.

And it doesn't always take weeks to carbonate a beer. Back when I bottled I tried one six days after bottling. Five days at room temp and one day in the fridge. Was perfectly carbed. Granted this beer was around 5.5-6%. Bigger beers that are 7+% may need a few more days to carb.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'm from a place in MA that's just 45 min from the brewery, so I've had a lot of exposure to their beer. My hunch is that they're using honey malt, but I haven't bothered tbh because I really can't taste the grain. I've been enjoying playing with oats for the time being

 

[marshallb]

I'm from a place in MA that's just 45 min from the brewery, so I've had a lot of exposure to their beer. My hunch is that they're using honey malt, but I haven't bothered tbh because I really can't taste the grain. I've been enjoying playing with oats for the time being

I like that you're posting this because I can only imagine what the beers taste like, and are supposed to taste like, fresh.
Have you ever tasted a Julius that's been through a 5 day UPS ride halfway across the country in the summer? I'm betting our experiences with Treehouse beers are very different because of this gated availability. I wonder if you shipped some down here and I shipped it back to you what you might taste then.
I'm also tempted to simplify my grain bill now and explore 90% 2 Row and a couple of specialty malts. There's a brewery down here that has a beer with quite a bit of similar malt flavors as Julius. I reached out to them in hopes I can find out what their grain bill looks like.

 

[melville]

Combing through TH's Tumblr and these tidbits caught my eye:

"Julius - 6.8% ABV, 72.4 IBU’s. You know this beast and you know it well. Made with the freshest batch of hops yet, this batch screams"

"Green - 7.6% ABV, 90 IBU’s - In our never-ending quest to improve and refine our beers, we cut this batch with a increasingly diverse array of citrusy American and New Zealand hops. To say it’s rich with hop flavor would be a massive understatement. We’d hate to call it a bomb… but, it’s a bomb."

This is 2012.

Also Julius is just called "Citra" till randomly it becomes Julius on 8-9-12

http://treehousebrewing.tumblr.com/post/28375617794/awesomeness-comes-in-boxes

 

[TheHairyHop]

I like that you're posting this because I can only imagine what the beers taste like, and are supposed to taste like, fresh.
Have you ever tasted a Julius that's been through a 5 day UPS ride halfway across the country in the summer? I'm betting our experiences with Treehouse beers are very different because of this gated availability. I wonder if you shipped some down here and I shipped it back to you what you might taste then.
I'm also tempted to simplify my grain bill now and explore 90% 2 Row and a couple of specialty malts. There's a brewery down here that has a beer with quite a bit of similar malt flavors as Julius. I reached out to them in hopes I can find out what their grain bill looks like.

I have considered purposefully aging a TH beer in an attempt to get a better taste for the grain, but seeing as I usually walk away from the experience with ten beers or less, it's kind of a tough sell. I'd also be skeptical of any flavor interactions tricking me into tasting something that was created rather than exposed.

I don't want to rub it in, but it is a shame that you can't get your hands on a super fresh one. They never taste as good as the day or day after you pick them up

 

[melville]

I have considered purposefully aging a TH beer in an attempt to get a better taste for the grain, but seeing as I usually walk away from the experience with ten beers or less, it's kind of a tough sell. I'd also be skeptical of any flavor interactions tricking me into tasting something that was created rather than exposed.

I don't want to rub it in, but it is a shame that you can't get your hands on a super fresh one. They never taste as good as the day or day after you pick them up

I don't find them that fragile, but then again I can't recall having any around after a week.

 

[marshallb]

Combing through TH's Tumblr and these tidbits caught my eye:

"Julius - 6.8% ABV, 72.4 IBU’s. You know this beast and you know it well. Made with the freshest batch of hops yet, this batch screams"

"Green - 7.6% ABV, 90 IBU’s - In our never-ending quest to improve and refine our beers, we cut this batch with a increasingly diverse array of citrusy American and New Zealand hops. To say it’s rich with hop flavor would be a massive understatement. We’d hate to call it a bomb… but, it’s a bomb."

This is 2012.

Also Julius is just called "Citra" till randomly it becomes Julius on 8-9-12

http://treehousebrewing.tumblr.com/post/28375617794/awesomeness-comes-in-boxes

Cool pic.
I'm almost certain I taste Galaxy and Mosaic in Green. I'm happy with Citra in Julius, but what other 2 hops? Apollo does fit somewhat...not sure though.

I don't find them that fragile, but then again I can't recall having any around after a week.

I agree they hold up really well. Transit can be rough when a package gets 100* though.

 

[couchsending]

If Green is American and New Zealand then it can't be Galaxy. Although I thought description used to say Australian and American???

Julius is definitely Citra + something. The root of that beer just used to be called Citra. I have still never had Julius but has anyone ever used Bravo? Most people know it as just a smooth bittering hop but when used late and for dry hopping it has a strong Orange or Candied Orange taste and aroma. There is an interesting article on the the affects of certain Hop oils on each other. I think there are a lot of hops out there commonly overlooked that when combined with the popular hops could boost certain flavor and aromas.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/hops-oils--aroma-uncharted-waters

 

[melville]

If Green is American and New Zealand then it can't be Galaxy. Although I thought description used to say Australian and American???

Julius is definitely Citra + something. The root of that beer just used to be called Citra. I have still never had Julius but has anyone ever used Bravo? Most people know it as just a smooth bittering hop but when used late and for dry hopping it has a strong Orange or Candied Orange taste and aroma. There is an interesting article on the the affects of certain Hop oils on each other. I think there are a lot of hops out there commonly overlooked that when combined with the popular hops could boost certain flavor and aromas.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/hops-oils--aroma-uncharted-waters

By "cutting" I think they're saying adding to the Green customers already knew back then — which on the Tumblr prior to the description above as being "boatloads of Australian and New Zealand hops." Also according to the Tumblr, originally just a single hop beer. So originally there was single hop citra (now Julius), single hop galaxy (Green), and a single hop cascade.

Anyone want to make a case for Haze having cascade (commonly available hops it says)

 

[TheHairyHop]

I had some Green in a cup that sat in the sun and got warm over the course of an hour, and I got unpleasant amounts of garlic fwiw

 

[marshallb]

By "cutting" I think they're saying adding to the Green customers already knew back then — which on the Tumblr prior to the description above as being "boatloads of Australian and New Zealand hops." Also according to the Tumblr, originally just a single hop beer. So originally there was single hop citra (now Julius), single hop galaxy (Green), and a single hop cascade.

Anyone want to make a case for Haze having cascade (commonly available hops it says)

I could second this...and test it. I always thought Haze was Citra but the esters were throwing me off. Cascade could fit. (I love Cascade and Centennial)

New Zealand variety that could fit:
Chinook (we know they use Chinook because SAP, but could be US Chinook in one and NZ Chinook in the other)
Rakau and Pacifica too, maybe.
Green seems to be a victim of the Mandela Effect. I always thought it was an Australian hop too, and the can has Galaxy written on the back of it.

I had some Green in a cup that sat in the sun and got warm over the course of an hour, and I got unpleasant amounts of garlic fwiw

Mosaic ewwww :fro:

 

[TheHairyHop]

you think? I have never gotten onion/garlic from mosaic. it's crept up in Galaxy though, as well as Apollo

 

[HopVision]

I was poking around the Lellemand website and under the technical data for CBC-1 it lists the following for primary fermentation,

In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort at
20°C (68°F) CBC-1 yeast exhibits:

Vigorous fermentation that can be completed in 3 days
Neutral aroma and flavor
CBC-1 does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units), and the result will be fuller body and residual sweetness in beer. Be advised to adjust mash temperatures according to desired result.
The optimal temperature for primary fermentation with CBC-1 yeast when producing traditional styles is 20°C(72°F)

A neutral yeast would really make those hops shine. Maybe the blend is on the back end of their process as others have suggested.

 

[couchsending]

So my last batch that I fermented with just S-04 I split into two 3 gallon kegs. One I just force carbed normally and the other I carbed with 1 gram of CBC-1 and .7 quarts of wort I saved from a previous batch (not the same beer but close enough)

The aroma is definitely not quite as good in the naturally carbonated batch however the flavor is much more rounded with less "sharp" edges. It is also slightly softer and one thing that's interesting is it has a distinct melon flavor/aroma to it that the force carbonated batch doesn't. Everyone loves that Tree House Honeydew right?

Next batch I'm definitely going to naturally carbonate as I really do think it made a better beer but I might split in half again with bagged dry hops in one keg and and either add more hops to the wort I prime with or maybe add a little extract to the keg to see what that does for the aroma. Might even combo T-58 with CBC-1 just for the hell of it.

If I'm priming in a keg and have a spunding valve is there no reason why I couldn't add a little more yeast for priming? Will that speed up refermentation time slightly? I know the calculators ensure you don't get bottle bombs but since I can release pressure does it really matter? Or what if I was to make a starter with that wort to cheat krausening a bit? Would that maybe speed up refermentation?

 

[melville]

So my last batch that I fermented with just S-04 I split into two 3 gallon kegs. One I just force carbed normally and the other I carbed with 1 gram of CBC-1 and .7 quarts of wort I saved from a previous batch (not the same beer but close enough)

The aroma is definitely not quite as good in the naturally carbonated batch however the flavor is much more rounded with less "sharp" edges. It is also slightly softer and one thing that's interesting is it has a distinct melon flavor/aroma to it that the force carbonated batch doesn't. Everyone loves that Tree House Honeydew right?

Next batch I'm definitely going to naturally carbonate as I really do think it made a better beer but I might split in half again with bagged dry hops in one keg and and either add more hops to the wort I prime with or maybe add a little extract to the keg to see what that does for the aroma. Might even combo T-58 with CBC-1 just for the hell of it.

If I'm priming in a keg and have a spunding valve is there no reason why I couldn't add a little more yeast for priming? Will that speed up refermentation time slightly? I know the calculators ensure you don't get bottle bombs but since I can release pressure does it really matter? Or what if I was to make a starter with that wort to cheat krausening a bit? Would that maybe speed up refermentation?

Interesting. Did you dry hop in the same keg your serving from? And how long did it take to carb with the CBC-1? I'm gonna be doing the same in a few days and am debating dry hopping in a keg now, then transfer to clean keg and add the CBC-1 or do it all at once.

 

[StinkyBeer]

I like this thought process. Primary with CBC-1 and pitch a blend that needs to work hard on the tough sugars later on.

As a side note, I currently have 1600litres conditioning with 12gpl dry hops with a yeast ratio of 500g S-04, 300g WB-06, 300g T-58. Pitched and fermented at 25. Currently stinks like super fruity banana bubblegum.

I also have another 1600 litres in primary with 740/140/120 grams respectively and gone with 20 degs. I shall report back.

I was poking around the Lellemand website and under the technical data for CBC-1 it lists the following for primary fermentation,

In Lallemand’s Standard Conditions Wort at
20°C (68°F) CBC-1 yeast exhibits:

Vigorous fermentation that can be completed in 3 days
Neutral aroma and flavor
CBC-1 does not utilize the sugar maltotriose (a molecule composed of 3 glucose units), and the result will be fuller body and residual sweetness in beer. Be advised to adjust mash temperatures according to desired result.
The optimal temperature for primary fermentation with CBC-1 yeast when producing traditional styles is 20°C(72°F)

A neutral yeast would really make those hops shine. Maybe the blend is on the back end of their process as others have suggested.

 

[couchsending]

I did not dry hop in the serving keg... i'm also in the process of evaluating different dry hop methods at the moment... this beer was more traditional. No dry hop during fermentation, wait until D-rest is done, cool to 60 to settle yeast, drop yeast, then dry hop for 4 days letting temps rise... next round will be something different.

It took about a week to reach 21 PSI in the keg... I got a little impatient and probably should have waited longer as it wasn't fully carbed but two days of normal PSI has it 90% there... maybe if I had used dextrose it might have been a little quicker? Not sure

 

[couchsending]

CBC-1 is supposed to be a killer yeast... in theory I'm not sure you could get brewers yeast to ferment that small amount of leftover sugar with all that toxic protein in the beer from primary fermentation with CBC-1???

 

[RevKev]

Truthfully I don't know about the T58 involved at all. Homebrewers unless you have the chance to ferment under pressure have more risk than reward from using a yeast known to produce Belgium esters and phenols. I thin S04 with maybe another blend. Not 3. With spunding should be sufficient to produce a clone with good malt and plenty of hops

 

[melville]

I did not dry hop in the serving keg... i'm also in the process of evaluating different dry hop methods at the moment... this beer was more traditional. No dry hop during fermentation, wait until D-rest is done, cool to 60 to settle yeast, drop yeast, then dry hop for 4 days letting temps rise... next round will be something different.

It took about a week to reach 21 PSI in the keg... I got a little impatient and probably should have waited longer as it wasn't fully carbed but two days of normal PSI has it 90% there... maybe if I had used dextrose it might have been a little quicker? Not sure

@couchsending — did you put any pressure on this keg when you closed it up to seal things up? I see conflicting anecdotes on priming in a keg — beer smith's calculator for example requires half the amount of sugar for a keg vs bottling, and I'm wondering how adding say 25psi might effect that.

 

[gifty74]

Long and very active thread, but thought I might interject on natural carbing. I used this method on my last DIPA, and it was the best by far that I've produced (also shooting for that mecca DIPA, that I just have to have on tap all the time), and mostly because of how long the flavor & aroma has remained stable. I had a spunding fail the batch before in that I put the spunding valve on at 1.024'ish, and the yeast gave up at 1.020 and didn't finish out. The last one I let finish out completely in primary, and then put in keg, with dry hops, and added the beersmith amount of priming sugar (which yes, is a lot less than you would add for bottling). Worked awesome, just had to wait 2 weeks. However, I usually was waiting 1 week to get proper carbonation by the force method I had been using for the past 10 years. Natural carb made the most dramatic improvement in a beer than anything I've done in recent history. Uses up most o2 picked (can't say all) up during transfer, and adds complexity in that the bubbles are finer and just feel different. I have a Belg Golden Strong finishing up natural carb right now and will be tapping next week. Can't wait to confirm my method and I might be converted to doing this from here on out for the benefits it provides. I've never had a DIPA that was this drinkable and retained this much dry hop aroma as this last one has.

One note! Learn from my lesson, carbing up to 28-30psi at room temp (which gets your around 12 or so at 36F) will not stay in liquid if you try to open the keg! I relieved all the pressure I could, and it still would not release the lid to let me get dry hops out. I was finally able to free the lid and the beer came gushing out like a vulcano. Unreal. Lost 1/4 of the keg. Lesson is, cool to fridge temps before trying to open the keg.

 

[melville]

One note! Learn from my lesson, carbing up to 28-30psi at room temp (which gets your around 12 or so at 36F) will not stay in liquid if you try to open the keg! I relieved all the pressure I could, and it still would not release the lid to let me get dry hops out. I was finally able to free the lid and the beer came gushing out like a vulcano. Unreal. Lost 1/4 of the keg. Lesson is, cool to fridge temps before trying to open the keg.

Good stuff. That triggers another question, you finish priming at room temp, move it to the fridge to, will you need to purge to get to serving pressure — I really don't want to purge these aromas!

 

[gifty74]

I don't think I will have to, maybe a little. The calculators are pretty accurate so it will be just like bottling. Once you close it up with priming sugar it's good to go. Even if you have to purge a little, shouldn't lose much aroma that way. I put my spund valve on just to see how much pressure is building up, and it's up to 26psi this morning, 9 days after kegging and adding priming sugar. Goal was 30psi, so it's right on track.

 

[marshallb]

Update, I just tasted my beer. The mouthfeel is very soft - can only describe it as velvety.
It was burst carbed with 40lbs from Wednesday afternoon. I turned the gas off yesterday to let the head pressure dissolve into solution.
It has a distinct fruit tang like fresh citrus (not saison-like at all), but the Citra is the star of the show.

 

[melville]

I don't think I will have to, maybe a little. The calculators are pretty accurate so it will be just like bottling. Once you close it up with priming sugar it's good to go. Even if you have to purge a little, shouldn't lose much aroma that way. I put my spund valve on just to see how much pressure is building up, and it's up to 26psi this morning, 9 days after kegging and adding priming sugar. Goal was 30psi, so it's right on track.

Nice, did you seal it with some pressure, or just check the seal and purge?