Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

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Looks like Melville could be slightly ahead of me. Fermentation is nearing FG, lest I checked was 1.020 so I raised the temp slightly to finish out.
My ratios were:
WB06 - 2 grams in 10 gallons for 24 hours @ 74*
Lowered temp to 60*
Pitched 22 grams of S04 and 2 grams of T58
Let sit at 60* for 3 days and now finishing out.

My gravity reading tasted incredibly fruity (no hefe character, just juice). This beer is bittered with Columbus and late kettle/WP additions of Citra and Citra CryoPellets. I have not dry hopped it because the weird thing is, it's way hoppier than when I use a similar schedule with Conan or 007. At this point I would normally throw in 4 to 6 more ounces of hops for a few days.
 
melville said:
Sent an email to Fermentis on F2 awhile back, got a response today:

"Thank you for contacting Fermentis.

The F-2 yeast improves the body feel of the beer through the carbonation. The yeast doesn’t add any body to the beer, but adds perceived body due to the natural carbonation. I believe the information is referring to F-2 carbonation versus forced carbonating beer. There could be a small amount of release from the strain which would slightly add body to the beer, but that isn’t the target for this strain.

If you simply add the F-2 to a beer, you will not see any real difference. There is a need for the secondary fermentation for you to see any difference. If you are kegging the beer, you can keg condition: what we refer to as cask conditioning. For this strain, we recommend 2-7g per hL, so for a 5 gallon batch you would need:

5gallons = 18.9271L 100/18.9271= 5.2834…. meaning that our recommended pitch rate for 5 gallons would be 2/5.2834 to 7/5.2834 which equals 0.3785-1.3249g"
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Did you ask if F-2 was a killer yeast strain? I would guess yes, but always nice to know.

Also, I'm kind of at a loss as to why there needs to be a conditioning strain? Is is because of commercial batch size considerations? Anyone that bottle conditions gets that creamier carbonation character, right? In this same vein, could the killer yeast trait be desired by TH? Someone previously mentioned cold crashing to halt fermentation once the desired FG has been hit (preserving sugars that WB-06 would eventually eat?). The killer yeast strain would then prevent re-fermentation from happening in warm cans.
 
marshallb said:
Looks like Melville could be slightly ahead of me. Fermentation is nearing FG, lest I checked was 1.020 so I raised the temp slightly to finish out.
My ratios were:
WB06 - 1 to 1.5 grams in 10 gallons for 24 hours @ 74*
Lowered temp to 60*
Pitched full packet of S04 and 2 grams of T58
Let sit at 60* for 3 days and now finishing out.

My gravity reading tasted incredibly fruity (no hefe character, just juice). This beer is bittered with Columbus and late kettle/WP additions of Citra and Citra CryoPellets. I have not dry hopped it because the weird thing is, it's way hoppier than when I use a similar schedule with Conan or 007. At this point I would normally throw in 4 to 6 more ounces of hops for a few days.
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Very interesting! To be clear, you are underpitching with WB-06 to try and draw out as many esters as possible, right?
 
isomerization said:
Very interesting! To be clear, you are underpitching with WB-06 to try and draw out as many esters as possible, right?
Click to expand...

Yes - another reason for the 24 hours alone in the fermenter. I'll say I've never seen a growth phase as strong as WB06. Even with this massive underpitch, it still had a normal krausen when I opened the fermenter.
 
marshallb said:
Yes - another reason for the 24 hours alone in the fermenter. I'll say I've never seen a growth phase as strong as WB06. Even with this massive underpitch, it still had a normal krausen when I opened the fermenter.
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@marshallb

Sorry just trying to clarify...In your first post about this batch you mentioned pitching 1/2 a packet of WB-06 on day one but you ended up just pitching 1.5g?

Total pitch of all the yeasts seems way underpitched for 10g??

1.5g WB-06
11g S-04
2g T-58
 
couchsending said:
@marshallb

Sorry just trying to clarify...In your first post about this batch you mentioned pitching 1/2 a packet of WB-06 on day one but you ended up just pitching 1.5g?

Total pitch of all the yeasts seems way underpitched for 10g??

1.5g WB-06
11g S-04
2g T-58
Click to expand...
I apologize - I was dealing with work issues and was paying half attention to my post. I fixed the totals in the previous post. 22 grams of s04, but yes I underpitched the wb06 and t58 intentionally. I'll need to play around with fermentation temps on the t58 I think. I don't know why the cans of Julius I get shipped to Houston have a noticeable amount of hefe esters. I've never tasted fresh Treehouse right from the source and I'm wondering if there's some slight fermentation happening in transit. None of the cans of Treehouse I've ever gotten tasted like they had a low volume of carbonation. That's one reason I don't carb to what people typically describe as 'carbed low for NEIPA'. To me my beers that don't carb to full volume don't taste right. Shipments of Treehouse I've receieved also taste drier than 1.016 so I try to finish my beers around 1.012
I guess I need to fly up there and visit the brewery lol.
 
marshallb said:
None of the cans of Treehouse I've ever gotten tasted like they had a low volume of carbonation. That's one reason I don't carb to what people typically describe as 'carbed low for NEIPA'. To me my beers that don't carb to full volume don't taste right. Shipments of Treehouse I've receieved also taste drier than 1.016 so I try to finish my beers around 1.012
I guess I need to fly up there and visit the brewery lol.
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I would completely agree. I've never had a Treehouse, Trillium, Alchemist, HF beer that tasted remotely undercarbed. If anything I always think they feel like they're carbed on the higher end.
 
couchsending said:
I would completely agree. I've never had a Treehouse, Trillium, Alchemist, HF beer that tasted remotely undercarbed. If anything I always think they feel like they're carbed on the higher end.
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Messing around with my own kegs and beer pressures has led me to believe that higher carb rates are necessary due to the amount of hop oils to retain head. I also feel like the higher carb rates add perceived body and round out or even marry the flavors via carbonic acid.
 
Just throwing this out there that Fermentis' attenuation charts show this:

WB-06: 70% Attenuation: 8 days | done: 11-12 days
S-04: 70% attenuation: 6 days | done: 8 days
T-58: 70% attenuation: 4 days | done: 4 days

WB-06 definitely does things differently than their other yeasts. Not sure how to use that, but it does tell me that I'll be letting this next beer sit a week longer than I might otherwise, because that's a lot of potential ester development time. (3 yeasts munch through 70%, one of those yeasts munches through an additional 15%).

Ordered another round of these yeasts and CBC-1 so hopefully I can get a brew day in Fri/Sat.
 
So on the F2, the rep doesn't know if it is a killer strain, says that's a trait more important for wine makers than brewers, given the usage, and doesn't come in the small sachets for home brewers for the moment.
 
@marashallb
any additional feedback on your brew. If you were doing it again, would you pitch more wb-06, give it more of a head start? Looking at the attenuation charts, it looks like you could give wb-06 maybe 36-48 hours, then pitch s-04 and in 4 total days they'd be about at the same point. Meanwhile T-58 is darn near completion in 2 days. I still have no idea if what I'm missing is more wb-06 or t-58, or both.

another thing about wb-06, it leaves behind zero maltotriose — implications on mouthfeel, body, sweetness — anyone know? Fermentis on Maltotriose:

"The result of a brew with high residual maltotriose levels will give beers with more roun- dness and mouthfeel, while beers with a high drinkability are those that contain no or very little residual maltotriose."

A common thread for wb-06 reviews. A dry wheat beer.

Another option: per Brulosophy: nothing matters. Find a ratio and pitch it at the beginning.
 
Yeah I would just find a ratio and pitch from the beginning.

Staggering yeast additions in the schedule being discussed would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible - you need to be pitching enough yeast so that when they go into the environment they will immediately start fermenting - there shouldn't really be any O2 left after your initial pitch... and there is alcohol.... limited minerals and simple sugars... and the pH is lower... and they now have to compete with the billions and billions of yeast cells already fully active in solution and fermenting.

Also, many people claim they taste bubblegum/banana/saison-like esters in TH beers, which leads me to think the T-58 strain has a more primary roll in fermentation, and is not used to condition the beer.
 
skibb said:
Yeah I would just find a ratio and pitch from the beginning.

Staggering yeast additions in the schedule being discussed would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible - you need to be pitching enough yeast so that when they go into the environment they will immediately start fermenting - there shouldn't really be any O2 left after your initial pitch... and there is alcohol.... limited minerals and simple sugars... and the pH is lower... and they now have to compete with the billions and billions of yeast cells already fully active in solution and fermenting.

Also, many people claim they taste bubblegum/banana/saison-like esters in TH beers, which leads me to think the T-58 strain has a more primary roll in fermentation, and is not used to condition the beer.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I also see quite few people mentioning bubblegum/banana/saison with WB-06. What I'm deathly afraid of is the spice quality that T-58 advertises, specifically pepper, that potential phenolic is why I had T-58 at the low end of my mix's ratio. But I clearly don't have enough of one of these two, possibly both.

It's definitely possible that either yeast is also being used more for a technical reason than a flavor addition: attenuation, haze, fermentation time, body. I've got to try to put each in some DME to see what happens separately.
 
I need to check my gravity and taste the beer. As per your attenuation percentages post, I decided to let mine sit a few days longer seeing what it would do. I also mashed at 157* so I'll check it this afternoon and post back.

Edit -
Gravity at 1.017 and it smells really Treehouse-y but missing some biscuity flavor that the core beers have. I'm going to adjust my recipe and keep going. The T58 sticks its head out slightly in the flavor, but aroma is almost spot on. I think some more melanoidin/biscuit/victory/aromatic or something like that will help tame the T58 and blend it with the WB06/S04. The bubblegum and apricot flavor/aromas are strong too. I can't wait to carb this beer.
7el49Oi.jpg
 
skibb said:
Yeah I would just find a ratio and pitch from the beginning.

Staggering yeast additions in the schedule being discussed would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible - you need to be pitching enough yeast so that when they go into the environment they will immediately start fermenting - there shouldn't really be any O2 left after your initial pitch... and there is alcohol.... limited minerals and simple sugars... and the pH is lower... and they now have to compete with the billions and billions of yeast cells already fully active in solution and fermenting.

Also, many people claim they taste bubblegum/banana/saison-like esters in TH beers, which leads me to think the T-58 strain has a more primary roll in fermentation, and is not used to condition the beer.
Click to expand...


Do you think you could give the fermentation vessel a shake before adding the second yeast? I know for big big beers some breweries add more O2 to protect yeast health. Just make sure the second addition of yeast is working already from a starter?

marshallb said:
I need to check my gravity and taste the beer. As per your attenuation percentages post, I decided to let mine sit a few days longer seeing what it would do. I also mashed at 157* so I'll check it this afternoon and post back.

Edit -
Gravity at 1.017 and it smells really Treehouse-y but missing some biscuity flavor that the core beers have. I'm going to adjust my recipe and keep going. The T58 sticks its head out slightly in the flavor, but aroma is almost spot on. I think some more melanoidin/biscuit/victory/aromatic or something like that will help tame the T58 and blend it with the WB06/S04. The bubblegum and apricot flavor/aromas are strong too. I can't wait to carb this beer.
7el49Oi.jpg
Click to expand...


Color looks amazing and it sounds amazing.
 
Looks amaze @marshallb — really nice.

What is it about T-58 that's sticking out? How does this compare with your Julius clone w/ WY3638?
 
isomerization said:
I have recently analyzed two more TH cans (Julius and Alter Ego). I only looked at 10-12 colones each (realized it would take way too long to run gels if I analyzed 50+ colonies/can). All colonies were either the blue triangle (S-04), red square (mystery) or green circle (T-58). The ratios were 14 (S-04), 5 (mystery) and 3 (T-58). Propagating the blend over several generations and then reanalyzing might provide some insight into why some people's starters from can dregs "turn" Belgiany. It could be that that strain grows faster than the others? I haven't analyzed any other breweries dregs (I live in KS, so difficult to get the NE IPAs).
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@isomerization your ratios here list 3 of the 4 yeasts, did you every update this? (and was the "mystery" here CBC-1 or WB-06?)
 
melville said:
Looks amaze @marshallb — really nice.

What is it about T-58 that's sticking out? How does this compare with your Julius clone w/ WY3638?
Click to expand...


T58 has a touch of spice coming through in the flavor but not the aroma. The aroma is pretty spot on. I'd say it's much closer than my 3638 clone because it tastes and smells like Treehouse instead of a distinct hefeweizen. Even though it's 1.017 it doesn't taste like it hasn't finished. It isn't sweet. Kind of hard to explain I guess. Like maybe it could have been a Curiosity batch where NL was experimenting with something slightly removed from the regular lineup.
I'll say now that I'm very unsure of my clone's hop combo, and subsequently my assumption that Haze is mostly Citra. I wish I had some fresh Treehouse to SxS. After brewing this beer with this yeast combo I'm almost back to thinking that Julius could have some Citra in it.
If it's not one thing it's another, am I right? I'll keep trying. I hope to brew again next week.
 
melville said:
@isomerization your ratios here list 3 of the 4 yeasts, did you every update this? (and was the "mystery" here CBC-1 or WB-06?)
Click to expand...

Nevermind, I found it:

I was looking back at my analyses of different cans, here are the breakdowns:

Julius: 7 S-04, 3 CBC-1, 2 T-58, 0 WB-06
Doppleganger: 5 CBC-1, 2 S-04, 2 WB-06, 1 T-58
Alter Ego: 7 S-04, 2 CBC-1, 1 T-58, 1 WB-06
Green: 5 CBC-1, 2 WB-06, 1 S-04

Now there are a lot of caveats here, I have no idea on the age of the cans and I definitely didn't analyze enough colonies for statistical power.

BUT, if we look at the distribution across all colonies analyzed (41 total), we get the following (rounded for convenience) and after the yeast is the % if we remove CBC-1 (i.e. post-primary addition):

41% - S-04 (66%)
37% - CBC-1
10% - T-58 (15%)
12% - WB-06 (19%)
Click to expand...
 
marshallb said:
T58 has a touch of spice coming through in the flavor but not the aroma. The aroma is pretty spot on. I'd say it's much closer than my 3638 clone because it tastes and smells like Treehouse instead of a distinct hefeweizen. Even though it's 1.017 it doesn't taste like it hasn't finished. It isn't sweet. Kind of hard to explain I guess. Like maybe it could have been a Curiosity batch where NL was experimenting with something slightly removed from the regular lineup.
I'll say now that I'm very unsure of my clone's hop combo, and subsequently my assumption that Haze is mostly Citra. I wish I had some fresh Treehouse to SxS. After brewing this beer with this yeast combo I'm almost back to thinking that Julius could have some Citra in it.
If it's not one thing it's another, am I right? I'll keep trying. I hope to brew again next week.
Click to expand...

Is that spice as in pepper, or as in spices?

I've always felt certain Julius had Citra. And something like Columbus, but that could be Munich or similar. My theory has always been that Julius began as Nate's Sip of Sunshine. This is from their website Aug 6, 2012:

"Beer. We make it and will be selling it this Saturday, August 18th from 11 AM - 6 PM.

Which beers will we be selling? Great ones. But what are they called?

That’s What Dean Said (Milk Stout) - Smoooooth. Just like Dean.
Julius (Nate’s Citra) - Extremely fresh and extremely bright. I would get here early if you want some.
Rapture (American Pale Ale) - Everything you ever wanted in Dirty Water, just more of it. Crisp, pale malt and a smooth American hop bite.
Dirty Water (American Blonde Ale) - Everything you ever wanted in Rapture, just less of it. Crisp, pale malt and just the right amount of hops to finish it properly.
That’s What SHE Said is ready to go on after That’s What DEAN Said kicks. Again, the difference is that DEAN is higher in alcohol and lower in bitterness.

All of these beers are as fresh as fresh gets and they will not last long.

On deck: Old Man.

See you Saturday!!!"
 
@melville I can taste it now. With London 3 or 007 or any of the other handfuls of yeasts I've used, Citra never fit in my opinion. I would say these 3 yeasts have such a complex flavor when used together that I probably was trying to hard to compare apples to oranges.
As for the T58 I would say a general peppery spice. It's pretty mild and would work really well with more biscuit. I'm going to double my victory and add more biscuit next brew.
 
I just kegged up a hoppy blonde (all citra) with a blend ratio for s04/wb06/t58 at 60/30/10 and I am getting a very prominent amount of the juicy fruit bubblegum esters present in Tree House beers. I am picking up the slightest bit of spice which I've never got in any Tree House beers, albeit much less than when I harvested from TH cans. This leads me to believe that T58 is used in tandem with the conditioning strain, possibly to make their dregs unusable, or less likely to speed up the refermentation (i believe I saw t58 completes in 3 days vs 7.) anywho I added cbc-1, priming sugar, and dry hops to the keg, and I'm going to let that sit a few days before checking up on it again to see what exactly the t58 or cbc-1 could be bringing to the table in the finished beer.
 
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1499526012.404164.jpg

Finally reached a drinkable form. Carbonation definitely reveals a more Belgian character, too Belgian for sure. I'm inclined to dramatically lower the T-58 and possibly the WB-06. I get something that could be bubblegum if this was sweeter with more fruity esters, but the finish isn't right, more hefe than IPA.
 
Anyone know if there is a way to get less spice and more fruit from T-58? Super warm fermentation?

Think I might run off a little less than a gallon of my next batch and ferment it super warm with T-58 just to see... maybe blend it back in at some ratio.
 
I regularly make Belgians with T-58 - pitch at 70 and let it go to 75. I get little to no spice in any of these.

Perhaps the T-58 is a lower ratio in the initial pitch but grows faster than the other two strains, so in the end it looks like its more prominently used than it really is?
 
skibb said:
I regularly make Belgians with T-58 - pitch at 70 and let it go to 75. I get little to no spice in any of these.

Perhaps the T-58 is a lower ratio in the initial pitch but grows faster than the other two strains, so in the end it looks like its more prominently used than it really is?
Click to expand...


@skibb How would you describe it? Saison-y?
 
For me, T-58 is actually fairly clean when compared to other Belgian strains (specifically the Abbey/Trappist ones). It gets quite estery mainly with notes of bubblegum, stone fruits and a little banana. It lacks the earthy/peppery'ness I expect from saison strains, at least in the temps I ferment at. I also aerate and use my typical pitching rates for this strain like I would any other, and that may lead to it lending a cleaner quality than some might get from it.
 
Brewed another batch last night:
90% 2-row
5% carapils
5% C-20

Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic

Mash: 156F

S-04: 90% | WB-06: 7% | T-58: 3%

Dialed everything down, figure it might be smarter to work from the bottom and build up. My flavors in the first beer are definitely too noticable, whereas no one is confusing a TH IPA with another style.

Going to try to be patient with the fermentation, 10 days. Rest for a few days. Dry hop for a few days. Carb (I have the CBC-1 yeast).
 
lilbova3 said:
I believe website says 'less than three weeks removed from our fermenters'
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I thinks that's more of a measure of how fresh the already finished beer is. Are there other ways of capturing CO2 without spunding? Otherwise it seems like they'd need close to two weeks to carb with cbc-1/F2. 4 weeks seems like a long grain to glass time to me, even 3 weeks seems long for a pro brewer. Would love to know the rough schedule.
 
Anyone thinking they condition with T58? If it finishes fermentation in 2-3 days, you don't have to wait that extra week to carbonate. A finishing yeast would also eliminate any O2 in the vessel. And using T58 as the finishing yeast under pressure, you're only going to pick up mild esters.
 
mbbransc said:
Anyone thinking they condition with T58? If it finishes fermentation in 2-3 days, you don't have to wait that extra week to carbonate. A finishing yeast would also eliminate any O2 in the vessel. And using T58 as the finishing yeast under pressure, you're only going to pick up mild esters.
Click to expand...

Fermentation and refermentation times are different. I'd expect T58 to need more than 2-3 days to referment. Plus we know they must be using CBC-1/F2 to condition though it remains possible they use a mix of the two as suggested by someone above.
 
melville said:
Fermentation and refermentation times are different. I'd expect T58 to need more than 2-3 days to referment. Plus we know they must be using CBC-1/F2 to condition though it remains possible they use a mix of the two as suggested by someone above.
Click to expand...
Being that we are getting such a noticeable presence of t58 even pitched at such extremely low ratio suggests that t58 grows and gets to work very fast. This could be beneficial to o2 scrubbing during refermentation. Although i still don't understand why they would be pitching additional yeast for refermentation at all. There should be plenty of the primary yeasts left for a beer that is being cranked out in 2-3 week turnaround.
 

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