The_Dirty_Spring
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In your ratio, is "35" for WB-06?...
Correct. Just a shot in the dark until we get more results in. Excited to see how yours turns out!
In your ratio, is "35" for WB-06?...
Sent an email to Fermentis on F2 awhile back, got a response today:
"Thank you for contacting Fermentis.
The F-2 yeast improves the body feel of the beer through the carbonation. The yeast doesnt add any body to the beer, but adds perceived body due to the natural carbonation. I believe the information is referring to F-2 carbonation versus forced carbonating beer. There could be a small amount of release from the strain which would slightly add body to the beer, but that isnt the target for this strain.
If you simply add the F-2 to a beer, you will not see any real difference. There is a need for the secondary fermentation for you to see any difference. If you are kegging the beer, you can keg condition: what we refer to as cask conditioning. For this strain, we recommend 2-7g per hL, so for a 5 gallon batch you would need:
5gallons = 18.9271L 100/18.9271= 5.2834 . meaning that our recommended pitch rate for 5 gallons would be 2/5.2834 to 7/5.2834 which equals 0.3785-1.3249g"
Looks like Melville could be slightly ahead of me. Fermentation is nearing FG, lest I checked was 1.020 so I raised the temp slightly to finish out.
My ratios were:
WB06 - 1 to 1.5 grams in 10 gallons for 24 hours @ 74*
Lowered temp to 60*
Pitched full packet of S04 and 2 grams of T58
Let sit at 60* for 3 days and now finishing out.
My gravity reading tasted incredibly fruity (no hefe character, just juice). This beer is bittered with Columbus and late kettle/WP additions of Citra and Citra CryoPellets. I have not dry hopped it because the weird thing is, it's way hoppier than when I use a similar schedule with Conan or 007. At this point I would normally throw in 4 to 6 more ounces of hops for a few days.
Very interesting! To be clear, you are underpitching with WB-06 to try and draw out as many esters as possible, right?
Yes - another reason for the 24 hours alone in the fermenter. I'll say I've never seen a growth phase as strong as WB06. Even with this massive underpitch, it still had a normal krausen when I opened the fermenter.
I apologize - I was dealing with work issues and was paying half attention to my post. I fixed the totals in the previous post. 22 grams of s04, but yes I underpitched the wb06 and t58 intentionally. I'll need to play around with fermentation temps on the t58 I think. I don't know why the cans of Julius I get shipped to Houston have a noticeable amount of hefe esters. I've never tasted fresh Treehouse right from the source and I'm wondering if there's some slight fermentation happening in transit. None of the cans of Treehouse I've ever gotten tasted like they had a low volume of carbonation. That's one reason I don't carb to what people typically describe as 'carbed low for NEIPA'. To me my beers that don't carb to full volume don't taste right. Shipments of Treehouse I've receieved also taste drier than 1.016 so I try to finish my beers around 1.012@marshallb
Sorry just trying to clarify...In your first post about this batch you mentioned pitching 1/2 a packet of WB-06 on day one but you ended up just pitching 1.5g?
Total pitch of all the yeasts seems way underpitched for 10g??
1.5g WB-06
11g S-04
2g T-58
None of the cans of Treehouse I've ever gotten tasted like they had a low volume of carbonation. That's one reason I don't carb to what people typically describe as 'carbed low for NEIPA'. To me my beers that don't carb to full volume don't taste right. Shipments of Treehouse I've receieved also taste drier than 1.016 so I try to finish my beers around 1.012
I guess I need to fly up there and visit the brewery lol.
I would completely agree. I've never had a Treehouse, Trillium, Alchemist, HF beer that tasted remotely undercarbed. If anything I always think they feel like they're carbed on the higher end.
Did you ask if F-2 was a killer yeast strain? I would guess yes, but always nice to know.
Yeah I would just find a ratio and pitch from the beginning.
Staggering yeast additions in the schedule being discussed would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible - you need to be pitching enough yeast so that when they go into the environment they will immediately start fermenting - there shouldn't really be any O2 left after your initial pitch... and there is alcohol.... limited minerals and simple sugars... and the pH is lower... and they now have to compete with the billions and billions of yeast cells already fully active in solution and fermenting.
Also, many people claim they taste bubblegum/banana/saison-like esters in TH beers, which leads me to think the T-58 strain has a more primary roll in fermentation, and is not used to condition the beer.
Yeah I would just find a ratio and pitch from the beginning.
Staggering yeast additions in the schedule being discussed would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible - you need to be pitching enough yeast so that when they go into the environment they will immediately start fermenting - there shouldn't really be any O2 left after your initial pitch... and there is alcohol.... limited minerals and simple sugars... and the pH is lower... and they now have to compete with the billions and billions of yeast cells already fully active in solution and fermenting.
Also, many people claim they taste bubblegum/banana/saison-like esters in TH beers, which leads me to think the T-58 strain has a more primary roll in fermentation, and is not used to condition the beer.
I need to check my gravity and taste the beer. As per your attenuation percentages post, I decided to let mine sit a few days longer seeing what it would do. I also mashed at 157* so I'll check it this afternoon and post back.
Edit -
Gravity at 1.017 and it smells really Treehouse-y but missing some biscuity flavor that the core beers have. I'm going to adjust my recipe and keep going. The T58 sticks its head out slightly in the flavor, but aroma is almost spot on. I think some more melanoidin/biscuit/victory/aromatic or something like that will help tame the T58 and blend it with the WB06/S04. The bubblegum and apricot flavor/aromas are strong too. I can't wait to carb this beer.
I have recently analyzed two more TH cans (Julius and Alter Ego). I only looked at 10-12 colones each (realized it would take way too long to run gels if I analyzed 50+ colonies/can). All colonies were either the blue triangle (S-04), red square (mystery) or green circle (T-58). The ratios were 14 (S-04), 5 (mystery) and 3 (T-58). Propagating the blend over several generations and then reanalyzing might provide some insight into why some people's starters from can dregs "turn" Belgiany. It could be that that strain grows faster than the others? I haven't analyzed any other breweries dregs (I live in KS, so difficult to get the NE IPAs).
Looks amaze @marshallb really nice.
What is it about T-58 that's sticking out? How does this compare with your Julius clone w/ WY3638?
@isomerization your ratios here list 3 of the 4 yeasts, did you every update this? (and was the "mystery" here CBC-1 or WB-06?)
I was looking back at my analyses of different cans, here are the breakdowns:
Julius: 7 S-04, 3 CBC-1, 2 T-58, 0 WB-06
Doppleganger: 5 CBC-1, 2 S-04, 2 WB-06, 1 T-58
Alter Ego: 7 S-04, 2 CBC-1, 1 T-58, 1 WB-06
Green: 5 CBC-1, 2 WB-06, 1 S-04
Now there are a lot of caveats here, I have no idea on the age of the cans and I definitely didn't analyze enough colonies for statistical power.
BUT, if we look at the distribution across all colonies analyzed (41 total), we get the following (rounded for convenience) and after the yeast is the % if we remove CBC-1 (i.e. post-primary addition):
41% - S-04 (66%)
37% - CBC-1
10% - T-58 (15%)
12% - WB-06 (19%)
T58 has a touch of spice coming through in the flavor but not the aroma. The aroma is pretty spot on. I'd say it's much closer than my 3638 clone because it tastes and smells like Treehouse instead of a distinct hefeweizen. Even though it's 1.017 it doesn't taste like it hasn't finished. It isn't sweet. Kind of hard to explain I guess. Like maybe it could have been a Curiosity batch where NL was experimenting with something slightly removed from the regular lineup.
I'll say now that I'm very unsure of my clone's hop combo, and subsequently my assumption that Haze is mostly Citra. I wish I had some fresh Treehouse to SxS. After brewing this beer with this yeast combo I'm almost back to thinking that Julius could have some Citra in it.
If it's not one thing it's another, am I right? I'll keep trying. I hope to brew again next week.
I regularly make Belgians with T-58 - pitch at 70 and let it go to 75. I get little to no spice in any of these.
Perhaps the T-58 is a lower ratio in the initial pitch but grows faster than the other two strains, so in the end it looks like its more prominently used than it really is?
Anybody know TH's grain to glass time?
I believe website says 'less than three weeks removed from our fermenters'
Anyone thinking they condition with T58? If it finishes fermentation in 2-3 days, you don't have to wait that extra week to carbonate. A finishing yeast would also eliminate any O2 in the vessel. And using T58 as the finishing yeast under pressure, you're only going to pick up mild esters.
Being that we are getting such a noticeable presence of t58 even pitched at such extremely low ratio suggests that t58 grows and gets to work very fast. This could be beneficial to o2 scrubbing during refermentation. Although i still don't understand why they would be pitching additional yeast for refermentation at all. There should be plenty of the primary yeasts left for a beer that is being cranked out in 2-3 week turnaround.Fermentation and refermentation times are different. I'd expect T58 to need more than 2-3 days to referment. Plus we know they must be using CBC-1/F2 to condition though it remains possible they use a mix of the two as suggested by someone above.
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