That sounds awesome!
Does #7 sound like Conan (The Alchemist's yeast)? I am not familiar with that yeast myself.
Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?
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Does #7 sound like Conan (The Alchemist's yeast)? I am not familiar with that yeast myself.
Conan was my thought with the stone fruit emphasis...
Cheers!
Cheers!
EwoutM
New Member
Made a little overview of the Data Set beers. Things that are written on the can and things that Nate said in the video's
Yeast that came to my mind:
#1
#2 WLP077
#3 Conan
#4 Helio Gazer
#5 British Ale V
#6 Kveik Voss
#7 LalBrew New England
Or maybe one of these New England IPA Archives - Inland Island Yeast
| Beer | Notes on Can | Notes from Video | Other notes |
| Data set #1 - House Yeast | - | Taste: Tropical Fruits, Soft Mouthfeel | Proprietary blend of yeast, unique |
| Data set #2 - Wild Modern Yeast | Tropical, Southern Hemisphere Hops | Nose: Ton of white wine, tropical fruit, earth citrus, grassy, pungent grapefruit & passionfruit Taste: Juicy, Dry, Very tropical fruit, Sauvignon blanc notes, little bitter | Thiolized yeast, mash hopping because manufacturer recommended |
| Data set #3 - English Ale Yeast | Simulair as #1 but distinctive difference | Nose: Classic, Rounded, Mango, Sweet Tropical Fruit, Sweet Sugar Taste: Rounded Full Profile, Simulair to #1 | Common English Ale Yeast (simulair to house blend), used before but not often |
| Data set #4 - Thiolized Yeast | Potent Tropical Esters, Tropical Aroma, Passion Fruit, Mellow Guave, Tangerine and Pine | Nose: Weird Aroma, Sweet Tart, Candy like Taste: Almost like Sauvignon blanc, Grapes | This yeast is based on yeast #5 |
| Data set #5 - English Ale Yeast | British Yeast, British Powerhouse, Haze, Fruity Esters, Sweet, Grapefruit, Pine Resin, Marmalde | Nose: Rich Rounded, Tropical Fruit to the Max, Tonnes of Citrus, Passion Fruit, Guave, Mango ect. Taste: Sweet, Juicy, Rich, No Bitter, Tropical fruit, dry | In comments Tree House said it's not Verdant IPA Lallemand, Classic Euoprean Yeast Strain sold to them as a fenomenal Hazy IPA maker |
| Data set #6 - Nordic Yeast | Astounding Temprature Range, Clean Tropical Profile, Huge Pineapple, Lingering Mango | Nose: Rustic, Sweet Orange, Clamentine, Citrus Taste: Pear, Lemon, Orange marmalade tea | Kveik, never used in IPA before by Tree House |
| Data set #7 - NEIPA Yeast | Uncanny Peach, Floral, White Peach, Apricot, Summer Cobblers and Ripe Yellow | Nose: Sweet, Summer Stone Fruit & Aprichots & Peach & Citrus, Resinus Taste: Summer Stonefruit & Aprichot, Dry and Bitter | Classic NE style yeast |
Yeast that came to my mind:
#1
#2 WLP077
#3 Conan
#4 Helio Gazer
#5 British Ale V
#6 Kveik Voss
#7 LalBrew New England
Or maybe one of these New England IPA Archives - Inland Island Yeast
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Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
They didn't come to my mind. The fact that he's talking about thiolised yeast, makes me assume that they're sourcing yeast from Omega, and my working assumption is that the yeast all come from Omega unless there's evidence otherwise.
#2 is thiolised, implying gene editing (which WLP077 isn't) - as in #4309 above, that with the higher attenuation makes me think thiolised Chico - Star Party.
#3 Some other "standard" British yeast - my guess would be one of the Whitbreads which in Omega terms means British Ale I or II (or even just S-04 on its own?)
#4 One of the thiolised British Ale V's, don't know them well enough to tell whether it's Cosmic Punch or the more powerful patB Helio Gazer.
#5 British Ale V
#6 Voss
#7 Must be a Conan - and assuming Omega then it's OYL-52 DIPA rather than the Lallemand version.
EwoutM
New Member
Or a yeast like Thiol Libre
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
You've said it yourself - "thiolised" is taken to mean "gene-edited", and he explicitly says #2 is "thiolised" (as opposed to eg "thiolising" which is how people would talk about the "natural" route).
And from everything I've seen, WLP077 is nothing like as intense as the gene edited strains, it's more a general fruitiness rather than the intense hit of Sauvignon Blanc that he talks about which seems more typical of the gene-edited British Ale V's. But of course White Labs hype it up for the benefit of Europeans who can't use gene edited yeast, and to hide the fact that they've missed out on the patents.
Also he talks about a "strain" whereas WLP077 is a blend.
But "wild" doesn't mean "not-gene-edited". WLP077 seems to be a blend of standard brewery Saccharomyces like WLP830, whereas "wild" in the yeast world normally refers to non-Sacc yeast.
I suspect they're using "wild" in the sense of "crazy".
secretlevel
Well-Known Member
Ok, I finally tasted through the series 1-6 in a blind tasting and these beers kind of changed how I think about certain strains. Seriously cool of TH to do this to let us homebrewers nerd out.
To add to @Northern_Brewer note, I don't think that this yeast was gene-edited at all. Neither the can, nor the description say that it's thiolized, only Nate said that in his video, which may have been his misconception. The yeast produces thiols through biotransformation, as the can notes, as do a several other yeasts.
I'm convinced that it's Imperial A20 or similar (Sacch. cerevisiae var. diastaticus), as it's the only juicy/NEIPA type strain that contains "wild" keywords:
'“Wild” saccharomyces yeast strain known to produce a huge citrus fruit ester profile.'
Having tried Helio Gazer, Cosmic Punch, and Lunar Crush among other thiolized yeasts out right now, Data Set #2 tasted nothing like the others, and nothing like #4, which was very similar to Helio gazer.
But I digress. The vid is below if you wanna watch the tasting and our ranking and sensory, but if you skip to 17 min, it's where we reveal the beers and compare our notes and rankings.
Yeast reveal and discussion toward the end, but here's what I thought they were:
1.House Yeast.
2. Yeast similar to Imperial A20.
3. Only one we weren't sure about. Conan would make sense!
4. Helio Gazer yeast from Omega or super tholized yeast from another manufacturer.
5. I'm convinced that this is S-04, which is why we thought it was so similar to the House yeast. House has a hint of the same ester character, just toned down and more citrusy.
Pretty sure it's not British Ale V/LA3 because it has a very doughey character to it that I don't get in any hazy brews released in Chicagoland (all use British Ale V equivalent). It's also a strain I brew with monthly.
6. Kveik, which was really cool. It didn't taste like Voss to me, but I've never personally brewed with it so hard to say.
Can anyone for sure confirm that it's Voss?
To add to @Northern_Brewer note, I don't think that this yeast was gene-edited at all. Neither the can, nor the description say that it's thiolized, only Nate said that in his video, which may have been his misconception. The yeast produces thiols through biotransformation, as the can notes, as do a several other yeasts.
I'm convinced that it's Imperial A20 or similar (Sacch. cerevisiae var. diastaticus), as it's the only juicy/NEIPA type strain that contains "wild" keywords:
'“Wild” saccharomyces yeast strain known to produce a huge citrus fruit ester profile.'
Having tried Helio Gazer, Cosmic Punch, and Lunar Crush among other thiolized yeasts out right now, Data Set #2 tasted nothing like the others, and nothing like #4, which was very similar to Helio gazer.
But I digress. The vid is below if you wanna watch the tasting and our ranking and sensory, but if you skip to 17 min, it's where we reveal the beers and compare our notes and rankings.
Yeast reveal and discussion toward the end, but here's what I thought they were:
1.House Yeast.
2. Yeast similar to Imperial A20.
3. Only one we weren't sure about. Conan would make sense!
4. Helio Gazer yeast from Omega or super tholized yeast from another manufacturer.
5. I'm convinced that this is S-04, which is why we thought it was so similar to the House yeast. House has a hint of the same ester character, just toned down and more citrusy.
Pretty sure it's not British Ale V/LA3 because it has a very doughey character to it that I don't get in any hazy brews released in Chicagoland (all use British Ale V equivalent). It's also a strain I brew with monthly.
6. Kveik, which was really cool. It didn't taste like Voss to me, but I've never personally brewed with it so hard to say.
Can anyone for sure confirm that it's Voss?
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beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Did you brew many beers with s04?
secretlevel
Well-Known Member
Yeah, generally haven't been a very big fan. It's a crazy fast yeast though!
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Ok just wondering as you identified it as the yeast in that beer, is that the beer where Nate says its very similar to our blend?
I have to rewatch, but I def do not like so4 on its own.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Judging by the tasting notes of Nate I would say nr 7 is conan and number 3 la3.
echoALEia
Well-Known Member
If 5 is s-04 I’d love to know how they get the haziness from it because I can’t get s-04 to biotransform to save my life no matter what I try. I will say underpitching it does produce some lovely flavors but every beer I make with it clears.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Yes had the same experience, and in a blend it doesnt really come out that much, at least not that it makes a noticable difference in the beer.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Already here,with the likes of WLP077 which is a blend they made after looking at which of their existing yeast had good thiol *releasing* (not "producing") activity - presumably it has a lot of WLP830 (their version of 34/70) :
https://www.whitelabs.com/news-update-detail?id=74
Lallemand have also been screening :
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/en...iols-and-their-role-in-hop-biotransformation/
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
I was hinting at the "wild yeast" in the tree house yeast series. Probably a wild strain some lab identified as high thiol producing.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
I think that's based on a misunderstanding of English, as I said before, I don't think that's "wild" in the sense of a non-Saccharomyces yeast.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
That's what Tonsmeire reported.
quote:
"As a result there are labs working with wild isolates capable of freeing thiols for co-fermentations (e.g., CHR Hansen - it is primarily marketed for NA beers) and breeding strains with heightened thiol freeing capabilities (e.g., Escarpment)"
Source: Are Thiols a Scam? Thiolized Yeast, Phantasm, and the Rise of Designer Beer | The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
I wasn't talking about his use of the word, but in relation to Tree House's use of it. In any case, TH seem relatively conservative when it comes to yeast - and even the yeast geeks don't seem to go in for co-ferments that much. Things like Metschnikowia have been available from mainstream suppliers for some time now but haven't really taken off.
It's actually fascinating seeing it from both sides of the fence, the other day I was talking to a guy who prospects full-time for weird fermentation organisms and his perspective on these things was very different.
Let's just say that in the US I think they'll mainly go the gene-edited route (think Sourvisiae and the Omega thiolisers) as it's so much easier.
PilotAlex17
Member
A side story involving WB-06.
I brewed a double IPA, fairly standard recipe of golden promise/flaked oats/carapils. 4 gallons were fermented with Imperial A38 pitched at 70°, then dropped at high krausen to 65°.
1 gallon was separately fermented with half a packet of WB-06 at a constant 82°. This is well above recommended. The WB-06 batch is pure banana and bubble gum. No clove. It remains kegged at the moment.
The main batch was incredibly estery and fruity, exactly what I was looking for. And probably more so than I’ve ever done before. Unfortunately I yielded so little into the keg after a trub dump before fermentation, trub dump before dry hop, and loss of beer to the dry hop sludge (6 oz of DH). Therefore I just re-did the main batch and yielded 6.8 into the unitank. It will be pitched at 74°, allowed to reach high krausen, then dropped to 64°. After this, I will experiment with mixing the WB-06 batch with this new main batch.
Some notes on why I did what I did, and most of it is from reading Scott Jannish’s The New IPA. All of this can be debated but there is evidence for each.
- Research shows dropping the temperature at high krausen maximizes ester production, at least in one study.
- Trub left in the ferment equated to less esters. I have a hard time separating the trub from my cooling wort and so I’ve implemented a later dump from the unitank.
- Dumping the yeast cake allows for better hop pellet contact as the pellets don’t sink into the cake, lessening their impact. This has been noted by several brewers in addition to the book.
- I also semi-crashed the main batch to drop out the yeast before dry hopping. This has improved my dry hop flavor. This time, I crashed to 50°, given my ferment was at 65°.
That’s all. I mixed the two batches in small amounts but the poor yield from the main batch didn’t allow me to get a good mix of blend levels. I’ve been pursuing this for years now and I have to say, this latest work feels closest to what I’m looking for.
I brewed a double IPA, fairly standard recipe of golden promise/flaked oats/carapils. 4 gallons were fermented with Imperial A38 pitched at 70°, then dropped at high krausen to 65°.
1 gallon was separately fermented with half a packet of WB-06 at a constant 82°. This is well above recommended. The WB-06 batch is pure banana and bubble gum. No clove. It remains kegged at the moment.
The main batch was incredibly estery and fruity, exactly what I was looking for. And probably more so than I’ve ever done before. Unfortunately I yielded so little into the keg after a trub dump before fermentation, trub dump before dry hop, and loss of beer to the dry hop sludge (6 oz of DH). Therefore I just re-did the main batch and yielded 6.8 into the unitank. It will be pitched at 74°, allowed to reach high krausen, then dropped to 64°. After this, I will experiment with mixing the WB-06 batch with this new main batch.
Some notes on why I did what I did, and most of it is from reading Scott Jannish’s The New IPA. All of this can be debated but there is evidence for each.
- Research shows dropping the temperature at high krausen maximizes ester production, at least in one study.
- Trub left in the ferment equated to less esters. I have a hard time separating the trub from my cooling wort and so I’ve implemented a later dump from the unitank.
- Dumping the yeast cake allows for better hop pellet contact as the pellets don’t sink into the cake, lessening their impact. This has been noted by several brewers in addition to the book.
- I also semi-crashed the main batch to drop out the yeast before dry hopping. This has improved my dry hop flavor. This time, I crashed to 50°, given my ferment was at 65°.
That’s all. I mixed the two batches in small amounts but the poor yield from the main batch didn’t allow me to get a good mix of blend levels. I’ve been pursuing this for years now and I have to say, this latest work feels closest to what I’m looking for.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
How did fermentation go? Would believe it would take a bit longer to finish up
PilotAlex17
Member
Rather quick actually, no noticeable slowdown. Reached terminal in 5 days. I’ve got another one going with a greater temperature drop so we’ll see about this one.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
It always made sense to me as the lower the temp the less volatiles dissipate, esters are very volatile, I'd be worried a bit about diacetyl though it seems tree house might be employing extensive conditioning to help negate this.
PilotAlex17
Member
I haven’t gotten diacetyl from A38, or enough to notice it anyway. But of course TH isn’t using A38.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
At what time did you drop the temperature. Got one going now planning to drop it at 48h. Going from 75f to 66f
PilotAlex17
Member
Right at 24 hours from pitch. I’ll be back with more details soon.
The videos of Treehouse are very good. But nobody is talking about the beers. I had Julius 5 years before and it was perfect. Now it is just a decent hazy IPA both in can and on tap. I have talked to several people and they have the same opinion too. Do you agree on that?
PilotAlex17
Member
I’d have to disagree, there is still something special about TH. I have a huge supply of all of the NEIPAs out there and in my opinion, TH’s unique flavor is just special.
Adding this info on this Bootleg Biology release here...even if it started with a poll on /r/homebrewing
Secret Clubhouse: The IPA blend to rule them all! Primarily English yeast with a dash of two cultures of Belgian origin. Delivers a familiar English flavor with faint Belgian esters and phenolics. A hazy lover’s dream.
https://bootlegbiology.com/2023/11/12/🆕🆕🆕-winter-beta-cultures-are-here/
https://bootlegbiology.com/product/secret-clubhouse/
Secret Clubhouse: The IPA blend to rule them all! Primarily English yeast with a dash of two cultures of Belgian origin. Delivers a familiar English flavor with faint Belgian esters and phenolics. A hazy lover’s dream.
https://bootlegbiology.com/2023/11/12/🆕🆕🆕-winter-beta-cultures-are-here/
https://bootlegbiology.com/product/secret-clubhouse/
Mousetrapbrewery
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Thank you. I just ordered some. I also tried the tree house home brew recipe they posted a couple months ago. I basically followed it to a T besides fermenting a little hotter than I should. It’s kinda underwhelming and I don’t know if that’s because my hop contact was all messed up but I feel, with my own personal experience, that dry hopping cold works better for me. Might do this same recipe with this new yeast and cold dry hop next time.
Mousetrapbrewery
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An update to this. I actually tried this beer again and it’s awesome. A little strong on the LA3 taste but I fermented hotter than I should have. After 3 weeks in the keg it has reached the sweet spot. I always get impatient but this is worth the wait.
I ordered myself a pack of Secret Clubhouse from Bootleg Biology. I have been wanting to brew the Treehouse Hazy IPA recipe, and brewing that recipe with the Bootleg yeast sounds like an interesting combo.
I also ordered a pack of St. Westofus. WLP530 has been my favorite strain for Trappist styles, so I am curious to give their strain a run.
Mousetrapbrewery
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Do it and report back! I definitely prematurely said it was underwhelming when it isn’t. It just needed time. I definitely think yeast is a key factor, which clearly we known from this thread. And I’ve done probably all my NEIPAs with verdant recently and I am very disappointed. I know people love it but it finishes too dry for me and flocculates too much. Might be great for a pale ale, and heard it doesn’t ferment as much on 2nd and beyond gen of the yeast but I don’t harvest so I don’t know. Definitely curious how this yeast from bootleg stacks up.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Looks like a 2% shareholder wants to air dirty laundry in public, claims Nathan Lanier and Damien Goudreau were systematically ripping off the other shareholders by channelling $$$ through dubious property deals and inflated salaries.
https://eu.telegram.com/story/lifes...er-sues-two-of-brewerys-founders/71667965007/
https://eu.telegram.com/story/lifes...er-sues-two-of-brewerys-founders/71667965007/
How did the Secret Clubhouse turn out?
What boggles my mind most about TH is how drastically the flavors disappear, I had one Julius in the back of my fridge that was getting close to 3 months old and any and all flavors had completely dissipated, same scenario about a year ago with a can of Very Green. I travel often for work and buy way more beer than I can consume, so I often have left over ones and twosies after 2 months. Monkish, Other Half, Green Cheek, Trillium, Bissell, all of these beers still have flavor and fruitiness after 2-3 months (obviously not as intense as the first couple weeks but still very drinkable). TH is completely gone, ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY gone. Nothing but malt and alcohol. Is this attributed to the killer strain, does it continue to clean up esters and phenols even at fridge temperatures? Ive just never experienced this with any IPA from anywhere, theres usually at least some hop presence and yeast flavor remaining.
beervoid
Hophead & Pellet Rubber
Esters go out either way they are very volatile. The Tree House beers are also more malty then examples you gave. I think what is probably more at play here is that as the esters + hops fade and the malt character takes over.
In only 2 months? 
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
In my trials, WB-06 absolutely trashes hop flavour, so if they are still using it for some beers and not completely racking it off, that might be part of the equation?
