Is this dangerous or normal?

[kyt]

So I got a kit from kegconnection with the taprite regulator. Just got the 5# tank filled today and I'm making sure all the parts work before I have a keg full of beer I can't pressurize. Is the needle supposed to fly almost all the way around?

Sticker says Model 740 COMPRESSED GAS CARBON DIOXIDE REGULATOR 366M 1800PSI MAX INLET PRESSURE

Logic tells me either this gauge is way wrong or I'm in the midst of a dangerous situation.

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[brokebucket]

shut the valve on the tank, open the outlet valve from the regulator, then turn the regulator all the way counter clockwise. This should reset you to zero pressure.

Then you can shut your regulator out valve, open the tank valve, then dial in your regulator.

 

[kyt]

Alright I'll try it again. Standby

 

[kyt]

Nope, if I open the tank valve at all the high pressure gauge spins clockwise to the peg.
So I turns the knob until the low side read ~5psi, shut off the tank valve, and opened the outlet to release the pressure.
When I do that, the high pressure gauge starts to drop, but the low gauge drops to 0 until I close the outlet, then it went up to 20!
WTF is going on here?

 

[palys2]

CO2 is a unique gas... It's pressure is proportional to temp and % full. See the chart. You should be able to figure out the pressure in your system (600 psi if you have it in a fridge).

http://www.privatedata.com/doomlabs/science/co2pv.gif


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[brokebucket]

sounds like your regulator is blowing by....and it has a depressurizing feature.

What SHOULD happen if your regulator is working and turned all the way down (counter clockwise): All gauges at zero, open the tank valve...high pressure gauge jumps to tank pressure...about 500# and low side stays at 0. Then, you can adjust your regulator clockwise until your pressure gets to where you want.

If your regulator has a depressurizing feature, you can turn the pressure down with your out valve shut and pressure will go down. Without it, you would actually have to purge your gas off for pressure to drop.

If this is not happening, your regulator is crap. Sorry

 

[kyt]

Well from best I can tell, I think my tank may be filled >130% capacity.
It's about 70°F in the house, the tank had been in my car for about a week, and it's friggin cold out. 20°F right now, so says weather.com
But it's been in the house since 4pm (5.5 hrs). So I'm assuming the tank temp is 70-ish
Still the high side maxes out at the pin. That's all well above the 1800PSI the reg says it'll handle

 

[brokebucket]

Also, I would not want the regulator to have the ability to depressurize, because it is a potential leaking point. These are usually cheap gauges that go on compressed air regulators, they shouldnt be on tanks (I dont think anyways).

 

[kyt]

What SHOULD happen if your regulator is working and turned all the way down (counter clockwise): All gauges at zero, open the tank valve...high pressure gauge jumps to tank pressure...about 500# and low side stays at 0.

If I do this, it all happens just like you say, but the high gauge skips 500 and nails the peg at what I can only assume is like 3000

 

[brokebucket]

the high side gauge is the top gauge...in the picture it is the one that is straight up.

The low side is the gauge with the color on it.

 

[kyt]

Also, I would not want the regulator to have the ability to depressurize, because it is a potential leaking point. These are usually cheap gauges that go on compressed air regulators, they shouldnt be on tanks (I dont think anyways).

Mine looks like T742HP at the bottom

http://www.taprite.com/products/co2_regs/primary.html

 

[brokebucket]

also,when you read the colored gauge, read the outside numbers (psi). You are reading KPa...which is kilopascals. Big difference.

 

[day_trippr]

the high side gauge is the top gauge...in the picture it is the one that is straight up.

The low side is the gauge with the color on it.

Completely backwards - typo?

Every regulator I've ever seen - and ever bought (my two carbonation systems, my mixed gas MIG rig, my cutting rig) - has the bypass port opposite the input port, which means the high pressure gauge in that picture sticks out at 9 o'clock. And it's colored to provide "zones" that are supposed to correspond to the tank pressure...

Cheers!

[edit] Well, not my welding/cutting regs. Both gauges sprout upwards at an angle on those tanks so neither is actually opposite the input port. Sorry, my bad...

 

[brokebucket]

huh, maybe I am wrong. Can you take a closeup of your regulator, especially the gauges?

 

[day_trippr]

Ok, so not a typo.

You're wrong. No pictures required. If you need some, do your homework...

Cheers!

ps: Doesn't matter which scale the OP is reading, if the high pressure gauge needle pegs against the stop, something is utterly FUBAR'd...

 

[brokebucket]

Completely backwards - typo?

Every regulator I've ever seen - and ever bought (my two carbonation systems, my mixed gas MIG rig, my cutting rig) - has the bypass port opposite the input port, which means the high pressure gauge in that picture sticks out at 9 o'clock. And it's colored to provide "zones" that are supposed to correspond to the tank pressure...

Cheers!

Yeah, I was just looking at one on ebay, the 12 oclock gauge is the low pressure gauge and the 9 oclock is the high. Ass backwards from any regulator I have worked with.

 

[kyt]

You have got to be Fn with me.

the high side gauge is the top gauge...in the picture it is the one that is straight up.

The low side is the gauge with the color on it.

This is backwards. The high gauge is on the left, with the colors. The face specifically mentions the tank being empty on the red zone, and the green says FULL. Also the PSI curve stops at 2000, the other gauge (top) stops at 60psi.

also,when you read the colored gauge, read the outside numbers (psi). You are reading KPa...which is kilopascals. Big difference.

This is also wrong. The inside curve on the high side reads 0-2000 psi, the outside reads 0-140 bar. There are no kPa markings on the high side gauge.
The low side has 0-4 bar on the inside curve; 0-400 kPa in the middle curve; 0-60 psi on the outer curve.

I appreciate you trying to help me, but you're doing it wrong.

 

[kyt]

Doesn't matter which scale the OP is reading, if the high pressure gauge needle pegs against the stop, something is utterly FUBAR'd...

ARG! So what do I do?
Is the reg bad or do I drain the tank?
Would it be helpful to know how much the tank currently weighs?

 

[brokebucket]

OK, sorry for the mix up. I have never seen a setup like that. All my regulators have the high pressure closer to the tank.

If it were me, I would check the zero on your gauge to make sure it goes all the way to zero. Then bleed a small amount of gas off to see if your pressure comes down.

 

[brokebucket]

You have got to be Fn with me.



This is backwards. The high gauge is on the left, with the colors. The face specifically mentions the tank being empty on the red zone, and the green says FULL. Also the PSI curve stops at 2000, the other gauge (top) stops at 60psi.



This is also wrong. The inside curve on the high side reads 0-2000 psi, the outside reads 0-140 bar. There are no kPa markings on the high side gauge.
The low side has 0-4 bar on the inside curve; 0-400 kPa in the middle curve; 0-60 psi on the outer curve.

I appreciate you trying to help me, but you're doing it wrong.

Sorry, but I went with everything I have seen. I can't read your gauges from your pic.

 

[kyt]

OK, sorry for the mix up. I have never seen a setup like that. All my regulators have the high pressure closer to the tank.

If it were me, I would check the zero on your gauge to make sure it goes all the way to zero. Then bleed a small amount of gas off to see if your pressure comes down.

Tank currently weighs ~14.6 lbs with nothing attached to it.

Yea with nothing attached both gauges drop to 0.

 

[day_trippr]

Things are gettin' weird in this place - is it a full moon tonight or what?

What I would try - and it's just a try - would be to pull the regulator off the tank, and open the tank valve for a couple of brief but enormous blasts. Then recouple the reg (make sure you didn't drop the coupler washer in the process of doing this or you'll have a tank-draining leak) close the regulator down all the way, and slowly crack the tank valve. If it still pegs the high pressure gauge, call up whomever you bought it from and have them cross-ship a replacement, stat.

Weight could matter if the tank was majorly overfilled, but while you can pull the Tare weight from the value stamped on the tank, weigh the tank without the reg and subtract the Tare weight, I'm not sure you'd have a number that would actually prove anything - other than the tank was over filled...

Cheers!

 

[kyt]

Things are gettin' weird in this place - is it a full moon tonight or what?

What I would try - and it's just a try - would be to pull the regulator off the tank, and open the tank valve for a couple of brief but enormous blasts. Then recouple the reg (make sure you didn't drop the coupler washer in the process of doing this or you'll have a tank-draining leak) close the regulator down all the way, and slowly crack the tank valve. If it still pegs the high pressure gauge, call up whomever you bought it from and have them cross-ship a replacement, stat.

Weight could matter if the tank was majorly overfilled, but while you can pull the Tare weight from the value stamped on the tank, weigh the tank without the reg and subtract the Tare weight, I'm not sure you'd have a number that would actually prove anything - other than the tank was over filled...

Cheers!

It weighs 14.6lbs with no reg.

I'm not sure what all the markings on the tank mean. I found this on an aquarium site

It depends on the DOT cylinder type (for U.S. tanks) not the manufacturer. A 5# aluminum cylinder should be a 3AL2015 and is supposed to weigh 7.6 lbs plus the valve weight. A 10# aluminum weighs 12.9 lbs.
It should also be approx 800 psig when full.

I don't have a 3AL2015. These are the markings I have, in order:
TC-3ALM124 T3.5KG TW7.7 LUXFER
DOT-3AL1800 X956094 M4141 10A13 5#CO2

Now I'm assuming TW means Tare Weight, and that'd be 7.7 lb (3.5KG)
14.6 - 7.7 = 6.9 weight of gas + valve

so either I have a 1.9lb brass valve and my high gauge is fubarred, or this tank is over filled

 

[day_trippr]

Well I can tell you the valve doesn't weigh anywhere near that much But you do have the Tare weight right - my 5 pound aluminum tanks are also stamped for 7.7 pounds, and the last time I had a reason to weigh one it wasn't more than a couple of ounces over the Tare weight (and it was pretty near empty).

The reason I thought blowing out the tank might do something positive is once I had a freshly filled tank roll off the seat of my truck and things were pretty weird when I hooked it up. As a last resort I blew out the tank and amazingly everything settled right to normal. My guess was some liquid got into the outlet path and was being injected into the reg, and a couple of good blasts cleared out the tank outlet.

So if you haven't tried that yet, it might be worth trying. In fact you might even want to blast off a good pound of gas before hooking it back up...

Cheers!

 

[kyt]

Well I can tell you the valve doesn't weigh anywhere near that much But you do have the Tare weight right - my 5 pound aluminum tanks are also stamped for 7.7 pounds.

The reason I thought blowing out the tank might do something positive is once I had a freshly filled tank roll off the seat of my truck and things were pretty weird when I hooked it up. As a last resort I blew out the tank and amazingly everything settled right to normal. My guess was some liquid got into the outlet path and was being injected into the reg, and a couple of good blasts cleared out the tank outlet.

So if you haven't tried that yet, it might be worth trying. In fact you might even want to blast off a good pound of gas before hooking it back up...

Cheers!

I was just considering the same thing. I'll take it outside and post back if it helped or not.

 

[kyt]

yup that did it.
I blew a plume from the porch to the sidewalk LOL tank almost got squirrely on me too!
The directions with the reg said when installing it, to blow some gas from the tank valve to clear any dust, but the warning side was very adamant about never opening the tank valve without a reg attached. I decided to err on the side of caution and not open it sans regulator. Maybe the gas people know I should do this and add a little extra to cover it.

Right now the high side is reading 1500psi

 

[chickypad]

Yeah, I was just looking at one on ebay, the 12 oclock gauge is the low pressure gauge and the 9 oclock is the high. Ass backwards from any regulator I have worked with.

Are you from the US? I've never seen a regulator configured like you describe.

I think the burst disc is supposed to blow if the pressure was dangerously high, but I don't know how much pressure that takes. Glad you got that fixed, sounds a little scary.

 

[day_trippr]

yup that did it.[...]Right now the high side is reading 1500psi

Excellent news!

Cheers!

 

[snowtires]

Wow it must have been really full. Mine reads 800 at room temp

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[brokebucket]

Glad you got it worked out. I am interested in what your pressure is now, as it seems to still be pretty high (maybe from shipping???)

Anyways, just to defend myself, I looked into regulators last night, and it seems that beverage regulators are different from industrial regulators...which is what I am used to. Attached is a pic of mine, which is an industrial regulator because I have a few laying around:

 

[kyt]

I think the burst disc is supposed to blow if the pressure was dangerously high, but I don't know how much pressure that takes. Glad you got that fixed, sounds a little scary.

There is a thing on the side of the tank valve that says 3000 on it, so maybe that is the burst disk rated for 3000psi?


Yea it was a little scary, my wife was really nervous about it too!

Wow it must have been really full. Mine reads 800 at room temp

I think it was almost 2# over filled. While I appreciate extra product for the same price, maybe just a half pound over would have been better than 2 lol
Maybe the tare was set wrong on the scale or something.

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[zachattack]

Well this was an interesting thread to read through.

I'm glad this ended safely. Since the regulator is only rated to 1800 PSI, this could have gone rather poorly. Chances are if it was summer, the disc on the tank would have burst. I'd politely notify the place that filled your tank that they overfilled it significantly, and that this presented a rather dangerous situation. Depending how they react to that news, I'd consider taking your business elsewhere. That's some scary stuff. Next time weigh the tank just to be sure...

 

[Brewerforlife]

I believe you have a dangerously over-filled tank, this is the fault of the companty that filled it. I go thru 10-15 20.lb tanks a month at our brewery, and every once and awhile I get one thats over-filled, I can tell by its weight before i even hook it up that its too full!!!

 

[kombat]

While I appreciate extra product for the same price, maybe just a half pound over would have been better than 2 lol
Maybe the tare was set wrong on the scale or something.

If I had to guess, I'd say whoever filled the tank probably didn't check the tare weight and just assumed it was empty when you brought it to him. It likely still had a pound and a half of CO2 still inside it. So he added 5 pounds to it. And maybe a little extra to give you your money's worth.