Is my smack pack still viable?

[SaisonMan]

I have a Wyeast 2278 smack pack that has a best if used by date of March 24. So I'm a little more than two months past. What's the likelihood it'll still be viable if I make a starter?

 

[kevin58]

Yep. Use it.

 

[SaisonMan]

Thanks!

 

[day_trippr]

If you can fit a full 2 liters in an e-flask you only need one spin to get to a pitchable cell count for a middling OG beer...

Cheers!

 

[beren]

March 24 of 2023? You're fine. I just made some starters from smack packs best by of Aug 2022. it took a few days and I started with 1c of 1.020 then went to 1l of 1.040 but had good activity eventually.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I have a Wyeast 2278 smack pack that has a best if used by date of March 24. So I'm a little more than two months past. What's the likelihood it'll still be viable if I make a starter?

I've rescued yeast from packs that were 4+ years past their best-before, you'll be fine.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...quid-yeast-after-the-best-before-date.697114/

 

[beren]

I've rescued yeast from packs that were 4+ years past their best-before, you'll be fine.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...quid-yeast-after-the-best-before-date.697114/

Now that’s impressive. I was nervous about 6-9 months past

 

[Skeeter686]

Now that’s impressive. I was nervous about 6-9 months past

I had one recently that was 6 to 9 months expired and I was nervous about it, so I decided to make a starter just to verify that it was viable. Turned out that it wasn't, so I went with the backup plan.

I'd suggest making a starter or having a backup yeast pack that's not expired.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm the contrarian.

Those old smack packs suck. I've had many failures and emergencies using them. I would NEVER again use one beyond it's date. If you smack it and it bloats hard, I guess that's a winner. If you don't get that result, don't use it.

 

[beren]

They aren’t bad if you take it slow. Like I said if it’s old I’ll give it a couple days with like 1c of 1.020 then do 1l of 1.040 haven’t had a failed one yet. If you are really nervous decant it and do another 1l starter on top. Still cheaper then a new pack

 

[homebeerbrewer]

I've used old smack packs too, with mixed results. But, being that it's only a couple months out of date, you should be able to revive it. Do a small starter, then a larger one, like beren said. If you still don't see much activity, then chill in the fridge overnight, decant the spent wort, and add fresh starter wort. Of course, a stir plate is highly recommended.

 

[MIWI]

Brewed a Belgian Strong last Friday. Used Wyeast Belgian Abbey 1214. Exp August 2023. Smacked pack, it fizzed, placed in house at 73 degrees for 3 hours. It never expanded the package. Pitched and at 38 hours not a speck of fermentation starting. This is the second Wyeast that was not expired but close that failed. Since the first issue I keep a Safale 05 in the fridge. Pitched the dry and in 2 hours I had fermentation starting. I am giving up on Wyeast because I cannot trust it. I must add, all the Wyeast I used that was good was yeast I ordered from my brew shop and expiration date was always out many months.

 

[VikeMan]

Brewed a Belgian Strong last Friday. Used Wyeast Belgian Abbey 1214. Exp August 2023. Smacked pack, it fizzed, placed in house at 73 degrees for 3 hours. It never expanded the package. Pitched and at 38 hours not a speck of fermentation starting. This is the second Wyeast that was not expired but close that failed. Since the first issue I keep a Safale 05 in the fridge. Pitched the dry and in 2 hours I had fermentation starting. I am giving up on Wyeast because I cannot trust it. I must add, all the Wyeast I used that was good was yeast I ordered from my brew shop and expiration date was always out many months.

2 hour lag with sprinkled dry yeast sounds like your original yeast finally showed visible activity.

How many gallons of (high gravity) Belgian Strong are you making? If 5 gallons, one smack pack would be a huge underpitch, even if the yeast was 100% viable (which it never is).

 

[beren]

How many gallons of (high gravity) Belgian Strong are you making? If 5 gallons, one smack pack would be a huge underpitch, even if the yeast was 100% viable (which it never is).

I learned that the hard way with a 9% triple. Pitched a 1l starter. Started fast but a lot of off flavors and sulfur. Finally tasting better at 7 months old, but still not exactly what I was hoping. I knew lagers needed double yeast.

 

[beren]

It never expanded the package.

Why not make a starter then? And yeah, no way us05 was working in 2h like that, esp in high gravity wort. It was the wyeast multiplying enough.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I learned that the hard way with a 9% triple. Pitched a 1l starter. Started fast but a lot of off flavors and sulfur. Finally tasting better at 7 months old, but still not exactly what I was hoping. I knew lagers needed double yeast.

There's all sorts of rules of thumb but somewhere around 1.060 is generally regarded as the point at which you need to be pitching more, you get rules like 0.5 billion cells per litre per Plato of low-gravity wort and 1-1.5 billion per litre per Plato of high-gravity wort. For 5 US gallons / 20 litres that would translate to around 100 billion cells for 12 Plato (=1.048 gravity) wort and 400-600 billion for 20 Plato (=1.083 gravity)

 

[jambop]

There's all sorts of rules of thumb but somewhere around 1.060 is generally regarded as the point at which you need to be pitching more, you get rules like 0.5 billion cells per litre per Plato of low-gravity wort and 1-1.5 billion per litre per Plato of high-gravity wort. For 5 US gallons / 20 litres that would translate to around 100 billion cells for 12 Plato (=1.048 gravity) wort and 400-600 billion for 20 Plato (=1.083 gravity)

I tried Wyeast liquid yeast for the first time for and attempt at a TT's recipe I have done two or three times before. The yeast West Yorks 1469 was 2 months within the parameters of best before, if that actually counts for yeast. I smacked it while I started the mash and even when I had got the wort into the fermenter it had only just puffed up. I pitched it and after a bit of a lag it it worked a treat and I have top cropped and it has done a great job again. I am sort of leaning towards wet yeast now but for some brews I will stick with dried it is so at hand and un-fussy.

 

[beren]

I love it. So much cheaper if you ranch it. I’ve been pointing people to Maintaining A Healthy Yeast Bank Long Term it’s written by a real microbiologist not a random homebrewer. I’ll have about 12 or 13 strains in my freezer in the next few weeks, 6-10 vials of each yeast. I use 20ml glass borosilicate vials so I can reuse them. First 10 vials total cost is about $2-3/pitch and it’s only the cost of dme/wort and a $3 bottle of glycerine that does like 60 vials

 

[MIWI]

Lots of good info. I was a bit concerned about the yeast quantity when I purchased. My local homebrew store thought I would be good to go with one pack. Although my OG was a little higher than expected. I still think the yeast count was low due to the smack pack not expanding. Guess I will see how it turns out.

 

[IslandLizard]

Used Wyeast Belgian Abbey 1214. Exp August 2023. Smacked pack, it fizzed, placed in house at 73 degrees for 3 hours. It never expanded the package. Pitched and at 38 hours not a speck of fermentation starting.

This is the second Wyeast that was not expired but close that failed. Since the first issue I keep a Safale 05 in the fridge. Pitched the dry and in 2 hours I had fermentation starting. I am giving up on Wyeast because I cannot trust it.

It's recommended to always make a yeast starter when using liquid yeast. It a) proves viability, b) grows more cells, and c) you can overbuild to save some out for another batch (by making a new starter again).

Here's a yeast pitch/starter calculator many use for estimates:
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php
BTW, by pitching US-05 to "salvage" the batch, you probably didn't get much of WY1214's Belgian yeast character you were after.

 

[mac_1103]

it’s written by a real microbiologist not a random homebrewer

I am both a real microbiologist and a random homebrewer.

 

[beren]

I am both a real microbiologist and a random homebrewer.

I expect to see good articles from you then! Things like “how to make a mini fridge into a -80° yeast bank”

 

[mac_1103]

I think I'll need to collaborate with an engineer for that one.

 

[homebeerbrewer]

... Pitched and at 38 hours not a speck of fermentation starting. ...

How did you determine that no fermentation was taking place? Bubbles in the airlock? Krausen on the top of the wort? Both are not reliable indicators of fermentation. As others have said, it's most likely the original yeast was working prior to the dry yeast.

 

[Bobby_M]

This is really one of those diminishing returns kind of thing. I can understand if you're a homesteader in the middle of Alaska, or the last remaining homebrewer after the zombie attack and you just HAVE to revive some old yeast. Making two or five starters in a row to do it will not be cheaper than a new pack, even if you consider your time worth zero.

An 8 month old pack of wyeast has an estimated viability of 5% meaning about 5B cells. A 5.75 gallon batch of 1.055 wort should have a pitch of about 220B cells which means you'd need over 40 packs or your starter would have to have a growth rate of 40x while most starters assume a 4x growth rate. That's a lot of goofing around.

I know.. there are a lot of brewers who will brag that they've made perfectly amazing beer by just showing the wort a picture of a a pack of yeast.

 

[beren]

This is really one of those diminishing returns kind of thing. I can understand if you're a homesteader in the middle of Alaska, or the last remaining homebrewer after the zombie attack and you just HAVE to revive some old yeast. Making two or five starters in a row to do it will not be cheaper than a new pack, even if you consider your time worth zero.

Couple of things: Nobody is making 5 1l starers to bring back a pack of yeast. If they are stepping it up, it's with very small amounts of weak wort slowly building up. Also, I can make 13.5 starters from a 3lb bag of DME, which cost me about $13. If you use wort from beer it's about half that cost. Excluding the reusable vials and small amount of glycerin, I can make 10 starters from the freezer bank for the cost of a new pack of yeast, and that doesn't even include shipping, or the fact that yeast has a hard time with shipping in 100° summer heat.

 

[Bobby_M]

Couple of things: Nobody is making 5 1l starers to bring back a pack of yeast. If they are stepping it up, it's with very small amounts of weak wort slowly building up. Also, I can make 13.5 starters from a 3lb bag of DME, which cost me about $13. If you use wort from beer it's about half that cost. Excluding the reusable vials and small amount of glycerin, I can make 10 starters from the freezer bank for the cost of a new pack of yeast, and that doesn't even include shipping, or the fact that yeast has a hard time with shipping in 100° summer heat.

Do you have a hemocytometer or are you just winging the pitch?

 

[Deriede]

I have a Wyeast 2278 smack pack that has a best if used by date of March 24. So I'm a little more than two months past. What's the likelihood it'll still be viable if I make a starter?

Bröther I have left an expired smack pack at room temperature for 3 weeks and still fermented a crisp ale. Maybe don't make it a habit, but once won't hurt anything

 

[beren]

Do you have a hemocytometer or are you just winging the pitch?

No

As I understand it, yeast will grow until they hit about 200 billion cells per liter. sometimes it takes a bit. yeast are not going to go "well boys, we split twice, we're done!" but will keep reproducing as long as there's food and 02. Also, if you have a weak starter/bottle dregs and you are stepping it up, you are doing 10/25/50/100/250/500/1000ml volumes and at lower gravity in the beginning so it's much less wort/dme needed. Also my time is not worth zero, but waiting 3 days for s starter to get strong instead of 2 doesn't really waste my time, just requires a little more advanced plan. The yeast/stir plate do all the work.

 

[day_trippr]

 

[mac_1103]

So one guy is talking about resurrecting one very old and certianly almost dead smack pack and the other guy is talking about maintaining his yeast bank and these two guys think they're arguing about the same thing? Did I miss anything?

 

[beren]

Did I miss anything?

it's all the same thing? I just made starters for 4 yeast packs that were best by Aug-Oct 2022. Turned out great, lots of yeast to harvest once decanted. The first one I made a 2nd 1l starter to test and it took off within hours so it was pretty viable, I'd say. I did do 1c of 1.020 wort to start then added 1l of 1.040 or so of wort to each pack, gives them a gentler wake up from the back of the fridge...

 

[mac_1103]

I just made starters for 4 yeast backs that were best by Aug-Oct 2022

So out of curiosity, does "just" mean last week, last month, or back in March?

 

[beren]

in the last 2 weeks I made 4 starters, decanted, doing another 4 starters starting today (with fresh packs)

 

[mac_1103]

I was wondering specifically about the expired packs. IOW, just how expired were those?

 

[beren]

starters for 4 yeast packs that were best by Aug-Oct 2022.

3 were 9 months expired and one was 7 months. They were kept in the fridge.

 

[mac_1103]

thanks

 

[IslandLizard]

in the last 2 weeks I made 4 starters, decanted, doing another 4 starters starting today (with fresh packs)

Are those starters on stir plates? That would be a much better/more efficient way to propagate the yeast. They need Oxygen.

 

[beren]

It is a plate, but last week I learned of this bit:
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2020/12/09/shaken-not-stirred-the-stir-plate-myth-buster/
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=24447.msg311550#msg311550

 

[beren]

Also some great info about different strains and pitching rates