Is my grain mill set right?
- Thread starter tooblue02
- Start date
Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
stpug
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2012
- Messages
- 3,808
- Reaction score
- 767
There's nothing that says you have to go finer, it's just my understanding that with BIAB you can get away with a fair amount finer than traditional lautering systems and gain increased efficiency. If it were me, I would do my first batch with that crush and determine what efficiency you get. After you know the efficiency, you can decide if it's worth going finer to try to gain extra gravity points.
I don't have a hand crank for my mill so I don't know how hard it should be to mill. I can say that my drill works about half as fast with grain in the mill than when it's empty
stpug
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2012
- Messages
- 3,808
- Reaction score
- 767
For BIAB I would say that looks perfect! That would be too fine for traditional mash/lauter and would generate a stuck sparge.
dietz31684
Active Member
I agree, that looks about perfect for BIAB.
OP
OP
tooblue02
Well-Known Member
Just to update...
I just brewed a Yooper Broken Leg House Amber (very excited) using the grain mill settings as above. I managed about a 69% efficiency this time using the milled grains, and sparging a bit with room temp water so I could squeeze the bag when I was done. I am still getting a little frustrated with the under 70% efficiency as I am not sure what else I can do to increase this?!?! MY final brew came out with a 1.053 OG (I added a little extra 2-row and a dash of 60L just to make it my own) Either way, what else can I do to increase efficiency? I mashed for 60 minutes at 150ish according to my thermometer. Would 90mins be better? Any and all help appreciated! Thanks and happy brewing!
I did check my hydrometer and it was off slightly (read 1.002 for 66 degree water)
Also, all the beer I have been brewing has been coming out pretty damn good IMHO and those who have drank it, is the efficiency thing really a problem? I want to get it right and hit the high 80's if possible!
I just brewed a Yooper Broken Leg House Amber (very excited) using the grain mill settings as above. I managed about a 69% efficiency this time using the milled grains, and sparging a bit with room temp water so I could squeeze the bag when I was done. I am still getting a little frustrated with the under 70% efficiency as I am not sure what else I can do to increase this?!?! MY final brew came out with a 1.053 OG (I added a little extra 2-row and a dash of 60L just to make it my own) Either way, what else can I do to increase efficiency? I mashed for 60 minutes at 150ish according to my thermometer. Would 90mins be better? Any and all help appreciated! Thanks and happy brewing!
I did check my hydrometer and it was off slightly (read 1.002 for 66 degree water)
Also, all the beer I have been brewing has been coming out pretty damn good IMHO and those who have drank it, is the efficiency thing really a problem? I want to get it right and hit the high 80's if possible!
stpug
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2012
- Messages
- 3,808
- Reaction score
- 767
If you're certain about the crush, weight of grain, volumes, and conversion completion then I would guess it's losses in the system. Losses in a BIAB should be minimal though. Beersmith likes to use efficiency in the fermenter whereas many folks use efficiency in the BK. These can vary by several percent due to significant losses in the BK.
Give us a rundown of your brew process and losses, particularly the volume that doesn't make it into the fermenter.
Did you see any doughballs in your spent grain?
Give us a rundown of your brew process and losses, particularly the volume that doesn't make it into the fermenter.
Did you see any doughballs in your spent grain?
OP
OP
tooblue02
Well-Known Member
Well, I did not see any dough balls in the grain, I made sure I stirred it after the mash and then the "sparge" to ensure complete mixing and sugar extraction. I sqeezed the grain as best as I could but there may have been some left in the bag. Hard to say really. I started with 6 gallons in the kettle then sparged with about 1.5 gallons of cooled water. One thing I noticed was no matter how much I stirred the grain following the sparge it was still hot when I started to squeeze it? I ended up with about 6.25 gallons in the kettle for the boil (I was heating as I went so this may be off slightly, if it was 6 gallons then I was over 70%).
Here is a question for you pros...
When taking the hydrometer reading... do you use the beer/wine thief or something else? I poured my sample into the beer thief to get the reading, all the way to the top and had a really hard time taking a consistent reading, maybe this is a source of my problem? The Hydrometer moves up and down depending on how I hold it so I try to level it out but after a few home brews everything seems level!
I guess I just want to achieve the level of BIAB the experts hit and maybe I am just to new to the process to really understand it!
My background is Nuclear Engineering with submarines so I can follow a procedure like no one else! So when my results are varied you can understand my frustrations. Either way I will continue to work the problem until I achieve my desired results, your help will just reduce the time table! Thanks again, and it's not like I am brewing crappy beer, just want to make the best beer I can, my last two batches using BIAB were clear, and delicious! Thanks and CHEERS!
Here is a question for you pros...
When taking the hydrometer reading... do you use the beer/wine thief or something else? I poured my sample into the beer thief to get the reading, all the way to the top and had a really hard time taking a consistent reading, maybe this is a source of my problem? The Hydrometer moves up and down depending on how I hold it so I try to level it out but after a few home brews everything seems level!
I guess I just want to achieve the level of BIAB the experts hit and maybe I am just to new to the process to really understand it!
My background is Nuclear Engineering with submarines so I can follow a procedure like no one else! So when my results are varied you can understand my frustrations. Either way I will continue to work the problem until I achieve my desired results, your help will just reduce the time table! Thanks again, and it's not like I am brewing crappy beer, just want to make the best beer I can, my last two batches using BIAB were clear, and delicious! Thanks and CHEERS!
Epimetheus
Well-Known Member
Hydrometer procedure: slowly add hydrometer and give it a spin. This remove bubbles clinging the the hydrometer. It also tends to center the hydro in the test cylinder so it floats freely and does not touch the walls and be "sticky". do not touch the hydro when taking a reading
tooblue02 said:
Yea - get yourself a test jar - basically a plastic graduated cylinder - that you can sit on a level surface and take readings. Holding the hydrometer in a thief is a very complicated way to go. If you want to spend a little more money, pick up a temperature correcting refractometer that does gravity. The former is way cheaper, but the latter is more convenient.
Another thing to consider is using hotter sparge water. I'm not sure it'll give you a massive difference, but using water in the 160-170 range will rinse out a lot more sugar than 60-90 degree water will. Just make sure you calculate our rinse water in the total volume, because many biab'ers do a no-sparge.
craigmw
Well-Known Member
Last weekend, I did an 11g batch of stout aiming for 1.072 and ended up at 1.076. I milled the grains in my Barley Crusher run on the low RPM/high torque setting on my cordless drill (Porter Cable) with a 0.038 gap. I ran the grain through the mill twice, did a cold water sparge with about 1/2 gallon, squeezed the bag and ended up hitting 86% pre-boil efficiency. I'm still working on the boil off rate, so I ended up a little high with respect to volume and finished at about 75% brewhouse efficiency. Still, not bad overall. I left a bit too much wort in the kettle that didn't make it to the fermenters, something I need to work on. I'm really not so concerned about efficiency, just consistency.
stpug
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2012
- Messages
- 3,808
- Reaction score
- 767
Efficiencies that people talk about are:
Mash
Boil Kettle
Fermenter
Brewhouse
I list brewhouse separately because some folks consider the BK the brewhouse, while others (and beersmith) consider the fermenter the brewhouse.
No one seems to specify which one they're talking about when they spout off a number - I'm guilty of this as well. Beersmith will provide you with the Mash and Brewhouse/fermenter efficiencies. It's typical to see the Mash efficiencies in the 80-90s, while the Brewhouse will be somewhere from 50-90s. I personally see low 80s Mash and high 70s Brewhouse/Fermenter.
I didn't expect you to see doughballs but thought I'd ask just in case. I suspect you're process is good; it either needs a little tweaking here and there, OR your missing numbers are calculation/volume issues.
Being a 3-vessel person, I don't squeeze the grains. Any amount of squeezing you do is extracting more wort than I ever get, so I doubt your squeezing (or lack thereof) is the issue.
Your sparge amount is quite small (1.5 gallons), but I've read reports of folks who "no sparge" and hit around 70+ fermenter efficiency. So adding a small sparge should push that number up a few/several percentage points.
Your crush looked very fine which should work to your advantage.
Your mash time of 60 min at 150 should technically be sufficient, but I would have probably pushed it to 75 minutes just to be super safe. However, I think it's unlikely this is the culprit but can't be ruled out completely.
Volumes? Variations in your volume measurements will cause significant differences in your efficiency numbers. You need accurate volume measurements to get good efficiency numbers. At the very least, you need to know your grainbill and your fermenter volume and gravity to get a fermenter/brewhouse efficiency which is what most folks like to see in the mid-70s or higher (but a consistent 70% is nothing to balk at!). Equally as important, perhaps moreso, is to know the mash efficiency so you can determine where your efficiency drop-off is coming from. If the sugar never leaves the grain then you'll alway have a lower brewhouse, but if the sugar is leaving the grain just not making it into the fermenter then you need to look at your BK losses.
What I've just said above is in no way perfect but it's fairly accurate. I'm sure I've left out some details that could use covering but at this point it might be helpful to see:
-Your complete recipe
-Your accurate volume measurements
It gives us a place to start. Also, you've provided some gravity readings but you've also stated that your hydro off by a few points (approx. 3 points high by my count). So if you stated above a gravity of 1.053, was that corrected and you were actually reading 1.056? Or does that need to be adjusted to 1.050 because you didn't account for correction?
Mash
Boil Kettle
Fermenter
Brewhouse
I list brewhouse separately because some folks consider the BK the brewhouse, while others (and beersmith) consider the fermenter the brewhouse.
No one seems to specify which one they're talking about when they spout off a number - I'm guilty of this as well. Beersmith will provide you with the Mash and Brewhouse/fermenter efficiencies. It's typical to see the Mash efficiencies in the 80-90s, while the Brewhouse will be somewhere from 50-90s. I personally see low 80s Mash and high 70s Brewhouse/Fermenter.
I didn't expect you to see doughballs but thought I'd ask just in case. I suspect you're process is good; it either needs a little tweaking here and there, OR your missing numbers are calculation/volume issues.
Being a 3-vessel person, I don't squeeze the grains. Any amount of squeezing you do is extracting more wort than I ever get, so I doubt your squeezing (or lack thereof) is the issue.
Your sparge amount is quite small (1.5 gallons), but I've read reports of folks who "no sparge" and hit around 70+ fermenter efficiency. So adding a small sparge should push that number up a few/several percentage points.
Your crush looked very fine which should work to your advantage.
Your mash time of 60 min at 150 should technically be sufficient, but I would have probably pushed it to 75 minutes just to be super safe. However, I think it's unlikely this is the culprit but can't be ruled out completely.
Volumes? Variations in your volume measurements will cause significant differences in your efficiency numbers. You need accurate volume measurements to get good efficiency numbers. At the very least, you need to know your grainbill and your fermenter volume and gravity to get a fermenter/brewhouse efficiency which is what most folks like to see in the mid-70s or higher (but a consistent 70% is nothing to balk at!). Equally as important, perhaps moreso, is to know the mash efficiency so you can determine where your efficiency drop-off is coming from. If the sugar never leaves the grain then you'll alway have a lower brewhouse, but if the sugar is leaving the grain just not making it into the fermenter then you need to look at your BK losses.
What I've just said above is in no way perfect but it's fairly accurate. I'm sure I've left out some details that could use covering but at this point it might be helpful to see:
-Your complete recipe
-Your accurate volume measurements
It gives us a place to start. Also, you've provided some gravity readings but you've also stated that your hydro off by a few points (approx. 3 points high by my count). So if you stated above a gravity of 1.053, was that corrected and you were actually reading 1.056? Or does that need to be adjusted to 1.050 because you didn't account for correction?
Epimetheus
Well-Known Member
These are facts about BIAB, stated multiple times by people on HBT
- The only way to make decent beer is with the 3 vessel method
- You extract tannins when you squeeze the bag
- BIAB always creates cloudy beer
- Combined with no-chill, you can get sick from this
- You always get less efficiency
- Get a REAL system.
- You need a bigger pot (regardless of what have now)
Now that we have THAT nonsense out of the way,
Brew on!:rockin:
brewinginnc
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2012
- Messages
- 292
- Reaction score
- 41
Brew another one without changing anything and you can see if the efficiencies match. I kept my mill gap the same and went from 60's to 75-79% after a few brews. I make sure to stir the mash really well.
Never done a 90 minute mash yet though.
Never done a 90 minute mash yet though.
OP
OP
tooblue02
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the responses. I will probably not brew again until mid December since I am on travel but I will try to repeat the process.
And Stpug, really appreciate the in depth look and thoughts, I have been on the road since Saturday and have not had the time to digest everything! Hopefully after thanksgiving after I get home I can sort it all out and let you know where I stand! Cheers!!!!!
And Stpug, really appreciate the in depth look and thoughts, I have been on the road since Saturday and have not had the time to digest everything! Hopefully after thanksgiving after I get home I can sort it all out and let you know where I stand! Cheers!!!!!
anengineer
Well-Known Member
I now consistently hit above 85% efficiency.
In the beginning I was only hitting high 60's, low 70's.
Soon as I increased my water/grain ratio my efficiency increased.
I'd like to know what your water to grain mash ratio is.
In the beginning I was only hitting high 60's, low 70's.
Soon as I increased my water/grain ratio my efficiency increased.
I'd like to know what your water to grain mash ratio is.
LowNotes
Well-Known Member
Can you describe how you are doing your mash out? That can definitely impact BIAB efficiencies. The rule of thumb I came across on HBT that has worked for me is to try and raise the temperature to 170* after mashing, with the bag/grain still in the pot, and to raise it to that temperature over 10 minutes. You may have to figure out how that works on your system, I brew on a stovetop with a nice big burner and have to set it around med-high to raise the full volume the 20-25* in 10 minutes.
Doing this will push the last bit of sugar from the grain, and allow more sugar to dissolve into the wort. You should also be stirring the crap out of it over the 10 minute period, trying to get as much sugar from the grain to flush out into the wort. After it hits 170*, then you pull the bag up, and flush it with room temp water if you want to batch sparge (I just do full volume boils and squeeze the bag, but either way is fine).
If you have been going straight from mash temp to room temp water sparge, I would bet that would be the easiest place to improve your efficiency, as the extra heat and stirring really helps get the sugar from the grain, which is what efficiency is all about.
Doing this will push the last bit of sugar from the grain, and allow more sugar to dissolve into the wort. You should also be stirring the crap out of it over the 10 minute period, trying to get as much sugar from the grain to flush out into the wort. After it hits 170*, then you pull the bag up, and flush it with room temp water if you want to batch sparge (I just do full volume boils and squeeze the bag, but either way is fine).
If you have been going straight from mash temp to room temp water sparge, I would bet that would be the easiest place to improve your efficiency, as the extra heat and stirring really helps get the sugar from the grain, which is what efficiency is all about.
OP
OP
tooblue02
Well-Known Member
For Mash out I did try and raise temps but was having some issues with it, made it to about 160ish over ten minutes and pulled the grain. Poured the water over it in another kettle and then squeezed the absolute crap out of it. The internals were still pretty warm/hot after pouring, probably need to evaluate the way I am dealing with that step in the process. I am using a turkey fryer set up so I am limited in what I can do to get heat on the kettle as the pot sits about 4-5" above the burner.
Lownotes: Where are you in Alexandria? I am across the street from the Home depot off RT 1. Is there a good home brew chapter around here that you use?
Anyways, I will continue to brew because IT IS A FREAKING BLAST! and maybe after a few more batches I will hit my target, until then, I will just have to enjoy the fruits of my labor! :cheers:
Lownotes: Where are you in Alexandria? I am across the street from the Home depot off RT 1. Is there a good home brew chapter around here that you use?
Anyways, I will continue to brew because IT IS A FREAKING BLAST! and maybe after a few more batches I will hit my target, until then, I will just have to enjoy the fruits of my labor! :cheers:
Similar threads
