Is it supposed to be this dark?

[Kornssj]

Hi all. Noob brewer here and I just made 5 gallons of a pale ale from a recipe kit using DME.

I took a picture in its primary fermenter. Is the beer suppose to get this dark? Will it clear up over the next few weeks?

 

[wdavis2003]

That is dark for a Pale Ale. Still could be a good beer though.

Can you share the recipe?

 

[VikeMan]

Wort/beer looks darker in a carboy than it will in a glass, because you're looking through a larger depth. Also, the opacity will change as the yeast settle.

That said, extract beers will generally be a little darker than an equivalent all grain beer.

If the finished beer (in a glass) is much darker than expected, I'd look into oxidation as a cause.

 

[Biggz1313]

It may lighten up slightly once it's cold crashed and you see the color in a glass vs fermenter, but likely not much. Welcome to the world of extract brewing (especially liquid extract) where beers will always be darker than expected due to the process of creating the liquid extract. If you want to avoid the dark color, use DME (dry malt extract) instead of LME (liquid malt extract).

Edit: misread your post and just saw you did use DME. Only think I can think of is you potentially added the DME too quickly or while the heat was still on on your kettle. If you do this and it doesn't fully dissolve quickly, it will fall to bottom of kettle and sit there and can potentially start to caramelize due to the heat still being on. If you did not do any of that, then it could be due to any specialty grains you used (list your recipe).

 

[VikeMan]

If you want to avoid the dark color, use DME (dry malt extract) instead of LME (liquid malt extract).

OP did use DME.

 

[Biggz1313]

OP did use DME.

I was editing my post when you posted this. I misread.

 

[fluketamer]

late addition of dme wil make the beer a little lighter. i think this will affect hop utilization though and has to be taken into account. also start with the lightest extracts possible.

it will get a little lighter with time from settling and also in the glass but it looks dark for a pale as others have said.

it will be good no matter what. i have learned my beers taste is more important than its appearance.

 

[Kornssj]

That is dark for a Pale Ale. Still could be a good beer though.

Can you share the recipe?

Sure. Here is the recipe and a few photos while I was cooling the wort.

I'm pretty sure it may have been hot when I stirred in the malt extract. I was going a bit fast. It was very well circulated, I was stirring vigorously. No chance of it settling.

I also took a short video after. Grains had been stepped. They were pretty dark from the get go.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Here is the recipe

I took a quick look at the recipe.

Did you do a full volume boil (ending up with 5 gal at the end of the boil)? Or was it a partial boil (start with around 3.5 gal, then "top up" to 5 gal in the fermenter)? In either case, did you add all the DME at the start of the boil?

They were pretty dark from the get go.

@VikeMan 's observations on observing color in the fermenter apply to observing color in the kettle as well.

 

[fluketamer]

some pics from more beer reviewers show a wide range of colors for this beer. although thats not uncommon. i often notice reviewers posting what looks almost like different beers from the same recipe. there are prolly more variables at play that determine a beers final color than one would assume. many have already been mentioned in this thread. but other things prolly play a role too aside from things like camera lighting and screen contrasts. boil time timing of additions , additives, adjuncts etc.

just curious did you add the sparkles.

below is pics of your beer from morebeer. all the same beer with more than slightly different colors. but i def woudlnt say any of them are a pale ale.
i bet that this beer will be good reviews are pretty solid

rdwhahb

 

[Kornssj]

I took a quick look at the recipe.

Did you do a full volume boil (ending up with 5 gal at the end of the boil)? Or was it a partial boil (start with around 3.5 gal, then "top up" to 5 gal in the fermenter)? In either case, did you add all the DME at the start of the boil?


@VikeMan 's observations on observing color in the fermenter apply to observing color in the kettle as well.

Yes full volume boil and I stirred in DME, at the end of the specialty grain steep, after bringing the water up to boil. I did notice that after I added the DME, everything became darker, which was odd because I used CBW Golden Light. I stirred vigorously so there was no way the DME could have burned. However, maybe the DME got dark because the heat was still a bit high? I thought you needed a higher head to dissolve the DME? Maybe i messed up by pouring too fast?? not sure.

some pics from more beer reviewers show a wide range of colors for this beer. although thats not uncommon. i often notice reviewers posting what looks almost like different beers from the same recipe. there are prolly more variables at play that determine a beers final color than one would assume. many have already been mentioned in this thread. but other things prolly play a role too aside from things like camera lighting and screen contrasts. boil time timing of additions , additives, adjuncts etc.

just curious did you add the sparkles.

below is pics of your beer from morebeer. all the same beer with more than slightly different colors. but i def woudlnt say any of them are a pale ale.
i bet that this beer will be good reviews are pretty solid

rdwhahb

For sure I'm think the beer will taste great. I'm not sure if color has any implications on flavor, but i'll post again in a week to show how light it has gotten. Fingers crossed***

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

full volume boil

Thanks.

I was concerned that it was a partial boil with all the DME at the start of the boil. That would likely have a (negative) impact on the color of the beer.

used CBW Golden Light.

6.5# of DME? The recipe sheet at morebeer's web site shows:

I did notice that after I added the DME, everything became darker, which was odd because I used CBW Golden Light. I stirred vigorously so there was no way the DME could have burned. However, maybe the DME got dark because the heat was still a bit high? I thought you needed a higher head to dissolve the DME? Maybe i messed up by pouring too fast?? not sure.

I'd like to confirm the amount of DME that you used and re-estimate SRM before spending too much time on those questions.

The "dark amber" color in the photo in #1 reminded me of a couple of OG 65-ish batches I made with "golden light" and/or "pale ale" DME. For those recipes, the software estimated color matched the color in the glass. The morebeer recipe was likely estimated with "extra light" extract, rather than "golden light" extract - and there will be a difference in the estimated colors.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Welcome to the world of extract brewing (especially liquid extract) where beers will always be darker than expected due to the process of creating the liquid extract.

Nope. Not always.

---

Impact Using Old Liquid Malt Extract Has On A German Pils (2017) | Brülosophy

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There are a number of online suppliers of LME that use oxygen barrier bags for shipping LME. They repackage it fresh, it is shipped/delivered in a couple of days. Store it in the fridge when it arrives. Brew with it promptly.

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There is a technique (from around 2015) that describes how to measure the color (and freshness) of lighter colored LMEs. I've used that technique (on both fresh and stale LME). It works.

---

There are a number of topics from 2019 - 2021 here at HomeBrewTalk where people show pictures of light colored beer made with LME.

 

[Biggz1313]

Nope. Not always.

---

Impact Using Old Liquid Malt Extract Has On A German Pils (2017) | Brülosophy

View attachment 835617​

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There are a number of online suppliers of LME that use oxygen barrier bags for shipping LME. They repackage it fresh, it is shipped/delivered in a couple of days. Store it in the fridge when it arrives. Brew with it promptly.

---

There is a technique (from around 2015) that describes how to measure the color (and freshness) of lighter colored LMEs. I've used that technique (on both fresh and stale LME). It works.

---

There are a number of topics from 2019 - 2021 here at HomeBrewTalk where people show pictures of light colored beer made with LME.

I haven't looked for any supporting papers, but my statement was more towards the idea that a recipe brewed with LME vs an equivalent beer brewed with grains, the LME beer will typically (I guess I can't say always here as that would be anecdotal) be darker than the all grain beer. I totally agree with you that all LME (and even DME) are not equal and I appreciate the link as well.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

the idea that a recipe brewed with LME vs an equivalent beer brewed with grains, the LME beer will typically [...] be darker than the all grain beer.

That was covered in #3 with the statement that "extract beers will generally be a little darker than an equivalent all grain beer" (emphasis added).

I'm not sure how to measure "a little darker" or "equivalent" - but for me, that's not important.

What is important is this: for the styles that I brew, I can brew with DME (or LME) and get color appropriate for the style, usually on the lighter side of the style guideline. And I do this every SINGLE TIME.

YMMV.

---

For OPs recipe, the difference between "extra light" and "golden" light is a significant consideration in the color coming out "darker than expected"

 

[Biggz1313]

That was covered in #3 with the statement that "extract beers will generally be a little darker than an equivalent all grain beer" (emphasis added).

#3 and my post were posted seconds apart. So close actually, that when I hit submit, I didn't even have the notification that the post had new replies while I was typing mine out. So my apologies for duplicating a statement that I didn't know existed when I hit submit.

I too also don't really care about the color of my beers (at least when we're talking minor color differences, if I'm brewing a pilsner and get a stout colored beer I'd probably quit brewing).

In regards to your brewing experiences, I did mention in my first reply that my experience is anecdotal, and I have not looked for any papers saying one way or the other on the color of beers brewed with LME vs all grain. I believe you when you say you're experience is great. In my experience it has not been. Basically, anyone else reading this post, take my and @BrewnWKopperKat's experience with a grain of salt before assuming what color your beer will be and just go brew on your system. It's going to be difference across systems as well as procedures/techniques. You won't know until you try.

All in all, don't worry that much about color unless you're entering it in a competition and your color is WAY off. Otherwise, if it tastes good, then I would call that a success.

 

[Kornssj]

Quick update : it does seem to look a LOT better on day 2. I got home and there was some thick foam at the top and color looks much lighter. Seems more consistent with the actual beer.

Loving the action on day 2. Appreciate everyone's advice.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

IME, yeast in suspension tends to lighten the color of the beer in the fermenter. The color will darken as the yeast drops out of suspension, and then (perhaps) lighten as the beer continues to clarify.

@Kornssj: be aware that the morebeer recipe may have used "extra light" extract when estimating SRM. Or they may have not re-estimated SRM for the "extract" recipe - and just used the "all-grain" recipe SRM.

You used "golden light" (not "extra light"). The color difference in the "extra light" and "golden light" is meaningful and your final beer color will be darker.

If you can confirm that you used 6.5# of "golden light" DME, I may make some time to run some color estimates using a couple of different receipe builders. OTOH, if you used 8# of DME, you brewed a significantly different recipe than the morebeer recipe.

 

[Kornssj]

IME, yeast in suspension tends to lighten the color of the beer in the fermenter. The color will darken as the yeast drops out of suspension, and then (perhaps) lighten as the beer continues to clarify.

@Kornssj: be aware that the morebeer recipe may have used "extra light" extract when estimating SRM. Or they may have not re-estimated SRM for the "extract" recipe - and just used the "all-grain" recipe SRM.

You used "golden light" (not "extra light"). The color difference in the "extra light" and "golden light" is meaningful and your final beer color will be darker.

If you can confirm that you used 6.5# of "golden light" DME, I may make some time to run some color estimates using a couple of different receipe builders. OTOH, if you used 8# of DME, you brewed a significantly different recipe than the morebeer recipe.

I used around 7.5#. The guy at the store said to use 8# to kick up the ABV .5% and that it was okay to do so to match the liquid malt amount which is also 8#. I held back a little, not sure why.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

recipe with	SRM (est)
6.5# extra light DME	5.9 (morebeer)
6.5# golden light DME	9.3
8.0# golden light DME	10.2

For reference (note that colors will vary slightly between display devices):

 

[Kornssj]

recipe with	SRM (est)
6.5# extra light DME	5.9 (morebeer)
6.5# golden light DME	9.3
8.0# golden light DME	10.2

For reference (note that colors will vary slightly between display devices):

View attachment 835735

Very interesting. I would be interested I'm learning this technique if you have the time to explain.

I suppose it isn't a s simple as less DME = lighter color ?

 

[VikeMan]

I suppose it isn't a s simple as less DME = lighter color ?

As long as you're only talking about one type of DME (or LME, or grain) at a time, and the rest of the process is identical, yes, it's that simple. But if you use a DME that's darker than the recipe's intended DME, then the beer will be darker than if you had used the intended DME.

I used around 7.5#. The guy at the store said to use 8# to kick up the ABV .5% and that it was okay to do so to match the liquid malt amount which is also 8#. I held back a little, not sure why.

Dude-At-The-LHBS strikes again. By weight, LME and DME have different contributions to fermentable gravity (and thus ABV). The fact that 8# of LME is right for this recipe doesn't imply in any way that DME should use the same weight to "match." Sure, you can increase the ABV of (almost) any recipe by increasing fermentables, but then it's not the same beer. And you can't expect it to look the same. I'd recommend remembering Dude-At-The-LHBS's face, and avoiding his advice in the future.

BTW, increasing DME by 1.5# in a 5 gallon batch would increase ABV by roughly 1.3%, not 0.5%.

ETA: One thing that's confusing...the LHBS seems to have sold you a different kind of extract than the one called for in the recipe. So this was not an actual MoreBeer kit? And the LHBS is making copies of the copyrighted recipe, giving them to customers, and selling their own ingredients directly?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I suppose it isn't a s simple as less DME = lighter color ?

There are a number of books/sites that explain how to calculate SRM using °L for each ingredient. Basically, it's

• lookup estimated °L (for the DME, adjust based on OG)
• calculate the MCU for each ingredient
• sum the MCUs
• SRM = 1.4922 * (sumOfMCUs ^ 0.6859)

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

In regards to your brewing experiences, I did mention in my first reply that my experience is anecdotal, and I have not looked for any papers saying one way or the other on the color of beers brewed with LME vs all grain. I believe you when you say you're experience is great. In my experience it has not been. Basically, anyone else reading this post, take my and @BrewnWKopperKat's experience with a grain of salt before assuming what color your beer will be and just go brew on your system. It's going to be difference across systems as well as procedures/techniques. You won't know until you try.

FWIW, I spent a bunch of time web-searching "extract darker than expected" a number of years ago.

One of the things that I found was a number of topics here at HomeBrewTalk from around 2013. Long story short, there were a couple of "personas" who were aware of

• the color impact of stale LME,
• the tendency for recipe builder software to underestimate SRM
• stratification with LME
• impacts of concentrated boil
• etc
• etc

Yup. 2013.

Oven time, it appears that they just stopped talking about the topic. Some of it may have been sumarized in the 2015 posts in the "Advanced Extract Brewing" topic - but it's been a while since I've read those posts.

Unfortunately, even in the mid 2020s, the echo chamber of "extract is always darker than expected" is both strong and wrong.

 

[fluketamer]

a few weeks ago i bought the reina del sol kit . a dme recipe kit from morebeer. the ingredients included 4.5 lbs of briess pilsen dme , 2 lbs of flaked corn ( a lot i know) and a half pound of carapils. several of the reviews complained that the color of this kit was too dark and not a true mexican lager/pilsner color. i figured with those ingredients and maybe a late extract addition if needed, theres no way it would be dark and it must have been their processes. i have made many many lagers with those exact ingredients and they were completley straw colored to the point that i have sometimes considered adding specialty grains for the color addition. i wasnt concerned

then the kit arrived and the carapils didnt look like carapils. like not even close to caraipls.
below is the pic of the kits carapils on the right (which says briess- but doenst look like my usual briess) and my usual cara (single packaged briess) on the left . the pic isnt that great and its more pronounced in reality but clearly the colors are way different. what gives? is the range of spec malts so variable that one carapils may not look like another from the same manufacturere or maybe from another crop? or is it just an old kit. does age affect the color of grains like it does the color of extract? brewinwithkopperkat i know you have studied alot about color from your other posts, especially lme color. have you read anything simialr about milled grain. i know i should google but i figured you may have alreadyy done the research
thanks


i am not going to use this dark carapils except in a porter or amber.

i thought the color difference was really odd.

 

[mac_1103]

Looks like somebody made a substitution.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

brewinwithkopperkat i know you have studied alot about color from your other posts, especially lme color. have you read anything simialr about milled grain.

No insights into pre-milled grains (I have a mill).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

the reina del sol kit

It looks like the extract kit is an "algorithmic" conversion (just replace the pilsner malt with extra light extract).

Flaked corn probably needs to be mashed for best results.

Based on what I've read, corn is around 0.5 L (zero point five). In the all-grain recipe, that will lower the color - assuming the beer is clear. I have no experience with flaked corn (especially steeping flaked corn) so I won't speculate on the impact of color for the extract recipe.

 

[VikeMan]

a few weeks ago i bought the reina del sol kit . a dme recipe kit from morebeer. the ingredients included 4.5 lbs of briess pilsen dme , 2 lbs of flaked corn ( a lot i know) and a half pound of carapils. several of the reviews complained that the color of this kit was too dark and not a true mexican lager/pilsner color. i figured with those ingredients and maybe a late extract addition if needed, theres no way it would be dark and it must have been their processes. i have made many many lagers with those exact ingredients and they were completley straw colored to the point that i have sometimes considered adding specialty grains for the color addition. i wasnt concerned

then the kit arrived and the carapils didnt look like carapils. like not even close to caraipls.
below is the pic of the kits carapils on the right (which says briess- but doenst look like my usual briess) and my usual cara (single packaged briess) on the left . the pic isnt that great and its more pronounced in reality but clearly the colors are way different. what gives? is the range of spec malts so variable that one carapils may not look like another from the same manufacturere or maybe from another crop? or is it just an old kit. does age affect the color of grains like it does the color of extract? brewinwithkopperkat i know you have studied alot about color from your other posts, especially lme color. have you read anything simialr about milled grain. i know i should google but i figured you may have alreadyy done the research
thanks


i am not going to use this dark carapils except in a porter or amber.

i thought the color difference was really odd.

View attachment 835854

I buy a lot of stuff from MoreBeer and am generally quite happy with them. But they really wet the bed on this recipe kit. There's no way that malt on the right is regular carapils. Just a shot in the dark (no pun intended)...it could be Carapils Copper Malt, but it looks maybe a little too dark even for that. And steeping 2 lbs (or any amount, but geez, 2 lbs) of flaked corn without a base malt is just a bad idea.

 

[fluketamer]

I buy a lot of stuff from MoreBeer and am generally quite happy with them. But they really wet the bed on this recipe kit. There's no way that malt on the right is regular carapils. Just a shot in the dark (no pun intended)...it could be Carapils Copper Malt, but it looks maybe a little too dark even for that. And steeping 2 lbs (or any amount, but geez, 2 lbs) of flaked corn without a base malt is just a bad idea.

yes and yes. i got it to meet a minimum shipping order after i forgot to get the fermzilla ring lid for my flat bottom fermzilla which comes with a twin carry handle lid instead. it was the kit of the week or something and i got it for i think 19.99 . i use flaked corn pilsen dme and carapils in a lot of different recipes so i can use all the ingredients and they were cheap. i also was very surprised the kit says to steep corn . i have done it and you get some starchiness that hazes up the beer and some corny sweetness but without base malt or enzymes i dont think it added any fermentable sugars to the wort. so 2 pounds steep is really a disservice to a "mexican lager" or any recipe. not complaining about more beer i love there shipping and prices especially small stuff like tubing and fittings etc. i recently have been looking at a lot of kit recipes online and have been surprised at a lot fo the grain bills.

i like ahs a lot and there all grain stout and minimash chocoalte stout are excellent. there lawnmower lager is great also. but i saw there grainbill for a mexican pilsner which calls for 4 lbs of 6 row and 4 lbs of flaked corn in 5.5 gallons of beer and i just cant beleive 50 percent corn could make good beer. i havent tried it though.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My experiences with morebeer have also been positive. And, it should be noted that they

• offer their 'extract' kits with the option of dry or liquid extract, and
• ship LME using oxygen barrier bags

(aside: as I was scanning their LME products, I see they have an Ultralight LME (2-row), a Pilnser LME (pilsner), and a Pale Malt LME (2-row) - along with many of the Briess LMEs. Having had good results with Williams LME, I may give the Ultralight LME a try).

i recently have been looking at a lot of kit recipes online and have been surprised at a lot fo the grain bills.

Kits recipes and instructions can be a source of really good (as well as really bad) ideas and techniques.

 

[BeerAndTele]

then the kit arrived and the carapils didnt look like carapils. like not even close to caraipls.
below is the pic of the kits carapils on the right (which says briess- but doenst look like my usual briess) and my usual cara (single packaged briess) on the left .

This is interesting. I recently bought a couple ounces of Briess carapils from my LHBS and it looked exactly like the bag on the right in your pic. I talked to the owner and also wondered if it was carapils copper, and he said no, it was definitely regular carapils. He said the whole batch he got from his supplier looked like that … in Briess carapils packaging. He didn’t say who his supplier was, and I didn’t ask. I used it anyway and the beer turned out great and was not appreciably darker than I expected, though the carapils was only 3.8% of the grain bill.

 

[fluketamer]

hmmmmm. a previous batch of cara that i didint take a pic of had a fair amount of kernals that were defiantely darker than the rest and it made me nervous when i put them through the mill but i also didn't notice a difference in the beer. like you it was only 4 ouncers in 5 gallons. sounds like maybe its a supplier thing like you say and not just a mistake at MB.