Is it bad to stir up the grains when I sparge?

[Beer is good]

I just brewed a batch and got 50% efficiency. I am starting to think it may have been the crush after reading some other posts here.

But I have a question about my mashing methodology. I did the normal mash for 75 minutes then drained it, then added boiling water in and stirred up all the grains, vorlauf a bit, and drain. Repeat 4x. Is it ok to do this? To add water and stir up the grains before draining?

I am using the same grain and same method as before but my efficiency was abysmal. 50% is just unacceptable. I normally get 75-80%. Now I am going to have an extremely heavily hopped Imperial IPA that is like 5% ABV.

I think I need to buy my own grain mill...

 

[doug293cz]

If doing batch sparging, lots of stirring is recommended. It is not recommended for fly sparging, other than an initial stir before vorlaufing. How long did you wait after stirring before draining? With anything but a very fine crush, it takes some time for the sugar to diffuse out of the grain particles.

It sounds like this low efficiency is an anomaly for you. What is different about this batch from previous batches?

Brew on

 

[Zenzi09]

I batch sparge and yes, stir like it owes you money, get all them sugars from every nook and cranny.

That said I just had the same problem with my last batch, from what others suggested I'm think my mash temp of 152-155 was the main contributor for loss at efficiency. I'll do my next Tuesday at 148 I think and see how it goes.

 

[OleGoatBrewing]

Its probably your crush. My LHBS had a few mills which I think were gapped differently so I would have brew days like yours on occasion. Once I bought my own mill I began hitting my numbers every time. Best $99 bucks spent!

Also when I batch sparge I usually do it in two steps so I try not to disrupt the grain bed. My efficiencies are normally 75%-80% or better. Good luck!

 

[RM-MN]

I just brewed a batch and got 50% efficiency. I am starting to think it may have been the crush after reading some other posts here.

But I have a question about my mashing methodology. I did the normal mash for 75 minutes then drained it, then added boiling water in and stirred up all the grains, vorlauf a bit, and drain. Repeat 4x. Is it ok to do this? To add water and stir up the grains before draining?

I am using the same grain and same method as before but my efficiency was abysmal. 50% is just unacceptable. I normally get 75-80%. Now I am going to have an extremely heavily hopped Imperial IPA that is like 5% ABV.

I think I need to buy my own grain mill...

If you mean that you added fresh boiling hot water and sparged 4 times you may be causing yourself other problems. Each time you add water and sparge the pH of the grain bed should rise. If it gets over about 6.0 and you add boiling water you will likely extract tannins from the grain. Two sparges should be getting most of the sugars out anyway and won't extract tannins.

If instead you are sparging and then adding the wort collected back to the tun to sparge again with it, you are wasting you time. When you batch sparge you should be stirring in the water really well which will dissolve the sugars. Once saturated, (at equilibrium is the proper teerm) the water can extract no more of the sugars no matter how many times you add it back to the grains.

 

[Denny]

I just brewed a batch and got 50% efficiency. I am starting to think it may have been the crush after reading some other posts here.

But I have a question about my mashing methodology. I did the normal mash for 75 minutes then drained it, then added boiling water in and stirred up all the grains, vorlauf a bit, and drain. Repeat 4x. Is it ok to do this? To add water and stir up the grains before draining?

I am using the same grain and same method as before but my efficiency was abysmal. 50% is just unacceptable. I normally get 75-80%. Now I am going to have an extremely heavily hopped Imperial IPA that is like 5% ABV.

I think I need to buy my own grain mill...

Repeat 4x? Who told you to do that? Take a look at www.dennybrew.com.

 

[Denny]

If doing batch sparging, lots of stirring is recommended. It is not recommended for fly sparging, other than an initial stir before vorlaufing. How long did you wait after stirring before draining? With anything but a very fine crush, it takes some time for the sugar to diffuse out of the grain particles.

It sounds like this low efficiency is an anomaly for you. What is different about this batch from previous batches?

Brew on

No, not lots of stirring. Thorough stirring. I stir my mash for maybe 3-5 min. until I get an even temp and I stir in my sparge water for a couple minutes. I average 85% efficiency.

 

[Denny]

I batch sparge and yes, stir like it owes you money, get all them sugars from every nook and cranny.

That said I just had the same problem with my last batch, from what others suggested I'm think my mash temp of 152-155 was the main contributor for loss at efficiency. I'll do my next Tuesday at 148 I think and see how it goes.

That difference in mash temp has nothing to do with efficiency.

 

[Denny]

Its probably your crush. My LHBS had a few mills which I think were gapped differently so I would have brew days like yours on occasion. Once I bought my own mill I began hitting my numbers every time. Best $99 bucks spent!

Also when I batch sparge I usually do it in two steps so I try not to disrupt the grain bed. My efficiencies are normally 75%-80% or better. Good luck!

You need to disrupt the grain bed when you batch sparge.

 

[TAK]

For what it's worth, I have another question/suggestion for you.

First, the question. Did you determine that you hit poor efficiency by taking your OG reading after the boil, or did you take a ore-boil reading?

One of the best things I ever started doing was to take a pre-boil reading and make adjustments before boiling. It's a bummer to miss your efficiency by so much, but the beer you had wanted could still have been achieved if you identified the low gravity before the boil, and added some DME and/it dextrose to hit your pre-boil gravity.

 

[JimRausch]

Amen TAK!

 

[stpug]

No, not lots of stirring. Thorough stirring. I stir my mash for maybe 3-5 min. until I get an even temp and I stir in my sparge water for a couple minutes. I average 85% efficiency.

I also find that thorough stirring is plenty sufficient for excellent efficiencies. I stir about 3-5 minutes for dough-in, and then my sparges are only about 30 seconds of stirring followed by an immediate draining. I average 84% kettle efficiency (fermenter efficiency also since it all goes in there ). You don't have to break your arm to get excellent results

 

[Beer is good]

If you mean that you added fresh boiling hot water and sparged 4 times you may be causing yourself other problems. Each time you add water and sparge the pH of the grain bed should rise. If it gets over about 6.0 and you add boiling water you will likely extract tannins from the grain. Two sparges should be getting most of the sugars out anyway and won't extract tannins.

If instead you are sparging and then adding the wort collected back to the tun to sparge again with it, you are wasting you time. When you batch sparge you should be stirring in the water really well which will dissolve the sugars. Once saturated, (at equilibrium is the proper teerm) the water can extract no more of the sugars no matter how many times you add it back to the grains.

Hmm... I am not recirculating the wort, I drained the wort and added in fresh boiling water. I was just trying to get more sugar out of the grain. I didn't know water could raise the ph. Why does adding water raise the ph? Does the hot water interact with the grain or something?

 

[Beer is good]

If doing batch sparging, lots of stirring is recommended. It is not recommended for fly sparging, other than an initial stir before vorlaufing. How long did you wait after stirring before draining? With anything but a very fine crush, it takes some time for the sugar to diffuse out of the grain particles.

It sounds like this low efficiency is an anomaly for you. What is different about this batch from previous batches?

Brew on

Nothing else was different for this batch, that is why I am wondering if it was the grain mill at the brew shop. I didn't measure my pre-boil gravity either. Maybe I will try one more batch and see what happens, or maybe I can mill my grains twice.

 

[The_Bishop]

You don't add boiling water; you add water at about 168-170 degrees Fahrenheit.

Pick up a book on brewing and save yourself a lot of grief and wasted time.

 

[Beer is good]

You don't add boiling water; you add water at about 168-170 degrees Fahrenheit.

Pick up a book on brewing and save yourself a lot of grief and wasted time.

I have books on brewing, and I have been doing this for the last 15 batches with no problems. In my books on brewing, it says mash out = add boiling water to denature the enzymes. So I am not supposed to add boiling water ever, not even the first time to mash out? And if I am only supposed to use boiling water for the mash out to raise them temp above 170, I would still like to know how adding water subsequently raises the ph. Is it because of how the grain interacts with boiling water?

 

[doug293cz]

I have books on brewing, and I have been doing this for the last 15 batches with no problems. In my books on brewing, it says mash out = add boiling water to denature the enzymes. So I am not supposed to add boiling water ever, not even the first time to mash out? And if I am only supposed to use boiling water for the mash out to raise them temp above 170, I would still like to know how adding water subsequently raises the ph. Is it because of how the grain interacts with boiling water?

Many water supplies have a pH between 7.0 & 8.5, and maybe even higher. The raw grain has buffering power that will bring the pH down. After most of the sugar is rinsed out, the buffering power is pretty much gone, so the grain can no longer bring the pH down. If the pH rises above the 5.8-6.0 range, and the temp gets over about 168°F, then you can extract tannins, which will make your beer astringent. You can prevent tannin extraction by acidifying your sparge water. This is why all-grain and partial mash brewers should learn at least the fundamentals of water chemistry.

Brew on

 

[Beer is good]

Many water supplies have a pH between 7.0 & 8.5, and maybe even higher. The raw grain has buffering power that will bring the pH down. After most of the sugar is rinsed out, the buffering power is pretty much gone, so the grain can no longer bring the pH down. If the pH rises above the 5.8-6.0 range, and the temp gets over about 168°F, then you can extract tannins, which will make your beer astringent. You can prevent tannin extraction by acidifying your sparge water. This is why all grain brewers should learn at least the fundamentals of water chemistry.

Brew on

Oh boy, I think I need to read my book more, or pay better attention

Thank you

 

[LLBrewer]

I have books on brewing, and I have been doing this for the last 15 batches with no problems. In my books on brewing, it says mash out = add boiling water to denature the enzymes. So I am not supposed to add boiling water ever, not even the first time to mash out? And if I am only supposed to use boiling water for the mash out to raise them temp above 170, I would still like to know how adding water subsequently raises the ph. Is it because of how the grain interacts with boiling water?

What book do you have that suggests adding boiling sparge water? I've always heard to NEVER let the grain bed get above 168 deg F.

 

[Beer is good]

What book do you have that suggests adding boiling sparge water? I've always heard to NEVER let the grain bed get above 168 deg F.

Ok, I think I did not read clearly. I think I read to add boiling water to raise the mash temp for the mash out, and maybe I just stopped reading there, and in my mind I thought "the hotter the better"...

Now I feel dumb. I will read my book more carefully. I have 2, one is charlie papazian and I forgot the other, I think it is just called Bock. :smack:

 

[govner1]

Nothing else was different for this batch, that is why I am wondering if it was the grain mill at the brew shop. I didn't measure my pre-boil gravity either. Maybe I will try one more batch and see what happens, or maybe I can mill my grains twice.

Look at your milled grains before using. If you see a lot of "old maids"(uncrushed grains) then mill again & adjust your mill gap or discuss w/ your LHBS.

 

[Beer is good]

Look at your milled grains before using. If you see a lot of "old maids"(uncrushed grains) then mill again & adjust your mill gap or discuss w/ your LHBS.

Haha, old maids? I like that. I will inspect my crush next time I am in there.

On another note, that beer is fermenting now and it was the most rapidly starting, and most violent fermentation I have ever had. So i am starting to wonder if somehow the gravity measured incorrectly. I checked my hydrometer just now in water and it was fine. Maybe something weird happened there with my measuring

 

[LLBrewer]

Haha, old maids? I like that. I will inspect my crush next time I am in there.

On another note, that beer is fermenting now and it was the most rapidly starting, and most violent fermentation I have ever had. So i am starting to wonder if somehow the gravity measured incorrectly. I checked my hydrometer just now in water and it was fine. Maybe something weird happened there with my measuring

Did you cool your sample? A hot wort sample will definitely read low with a hydrometer.

 

[Beer is good]

Did you cool your sample? A hot wort sample will definitely read low with a hydrometer.

Yes I cooled the whole thing to 60 degrees. Now I am thinking though, the hydrometer was not that cold, it was really hot here saturday night. I guess there is no point speculating like this. I will have to try again and pay very close attention. I will definitely inspect my grains after milling. I did not change anything in my process, so the things that could have changed (that I can immediately think of) are grain milling, different grain (maybe the shop got a new batch), I don't know.

I will just try again this weekend and see what happens.

I did learn something though, I shouldn't keep dumping tons of boiling hot water into my grain bed over and over. I will definitely change my sparging method.

Thanks for all the comments everyone

 

[Singletrack]

I will read my book more carefully. I have 2, one is charlie papazian...

The Papazian book is a hoot, but is more of an historical reference. Try to find a book that was written this century.

Or, watch some videos on the internet. Take Some Advice has some classic videos. Sorry, no, that's just cruel. Those are for laughs only.

"Someone" even suggested this: http://www.dennybrew.com/
That's all I used to get started, and some of my beer is drinkable to this day.

 

[RM-MN]

Ok, I think I did not read clearly. I think I read to add boiling water to raise the mash temp for the mash out, and maybe I just stopped reading there, and in my mind I thought "the hotter the better"...

Now I feel dumb. I will read my book more carefully. I have 2, one is charlie papazian and I forgot the other, I think it is just called Bock. :smack:

You have this partly right, and the author may have misled you too. You would use boiling water to raise the temperature for mash out......if you were fly sparging where the grains would be in water continuously for up to an hour at mash temp. The purpose of the mash out is to stop enzymatic activity during the long fly sparge but you are doing a batch sparge and don't need to mash out because your sparge should only take a few minutes. Add the water, stir well, drain. You need to stir well to dissolve (I know, wrong term but it works for this) the sugars much like you would if you made tea and sweetened it with sugar. The sugar would eventually dissolve and diffuse into the tea but stirring speeds it up.

 

[Denny]

Hmm... I am not recirculating the wort, I drained the wort and added in fresh boiling water. I was just trying to get more sugar out of the grain. I didn't know water could raise the ph. Why does adding water raise the ph? Does the hot water interact with the grain or something?

The grain has the ability to buffer pH and keep it in range to some extent. The more times you sparge the more you reduce that ability. Not to mention it's a total waste of time! You will not get more out of the mash by doing that. I do a single sparge and average 85% efficiency. Multiple sparges are just not necessary and can be detrimental.

 

[Denny]

You don't add boiling water; you add water at about 168-170 degrees Fahrenheit.

Pick up a book on brewing and save yourself a lot of grief and wasted time.

actually, that's the tempo you want the grain bed to be at. I use 185-200F water to do that.

 

[Denny]

What book do you have that suggests adding boiling sparge water? I've always heard to NEVER let the grain bed get above 168 deg F.

Boiling water will not necessarily raise the grain bed above 168. And even if it does, it's no problem as long as your pH is below 6.

 

[Denny]

Haha, old maids? I like that. I will inspect my crush next time I am in there.

On another note, that beer is fermenting now and it was the most rapidly starting, and most violent fermentation I have ever had. So i am starting to wonder if somehow the gravity measured incorrectly. I checked my hydrometer just now in water and it was fine. Maybe something weird happened there with my measuring

Please, please, please...for your own sake...read www.dennybrew.com. I have made 478 batches like that and won a fair number of awards. It's easy and it works.

 

[brewbama]

please, please, please...for your own sake...read www.dennybrew.com. I have made 478 batches like that and won a fair number of awards. It's easy and it works.

+1

 

[brewbama]

please, please, please...for your own sake...read www.dennybrew.com. ... It's easy and it works.

+1

 

[unionrdr]

I've been doing pb/pm biab & mashing 4-6lbs of grains in 2 gallons of water, I'll dunk sparge the bag in 1 1/2 gallons @ 170F for 10 minutes. I stir for maybe 2 minutes, cover it to sit & finish. Drain well & add to mash wort to get about 3 1/2 gallons in my 5 gallon kettle. My OG's are usually higher than listed.

 

[The_Bishop]

actually, that's the tempo you want the grain bed to be at. I use 185-200F water to do that.

That's true, but he said he did it 4 times.

 

[guitarguy6]

The Papazian book is a hoot, but is more of an historical reference. Try to find a book that was written this century.

Or, watch some videos on the internet. Take Some Advice has some classic videos. Sorry, no, that's just cruel. Those are for laughs only.

"Someone" even suggested this: http://www.dennybrew.com/
That's all I used to get started, and some of my beer is drinkable to this day.

Papazian has updated his book and the latest edition was published in 2014 and is quite good. If the OP is trying to mashout at 170F he will have to add water that's well above 170F to raise his mash temp. I doubt it would have to be boiling but I'm sure it'll have to be 190-200 to raise the mash from 150f or so to 170f depending on the volume of water he adds each time. I personally double batch sparge and don't bother with a mashout. I drain the mash tun, add 170-180F sparge water, stir thoroughly, drain and repeat.

 

[Singletrack]

Papazian has updated his book and the latest edition was published in 2014 and is quite good.

Updated. Okay, sorry Charlie.