LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
I've yet to see someone say, "I wish I had never switched from extract to all grain."
I've seen lots of people say, "I wish I had gone all grain sooner."
Is going all grain worth it ?
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I've yet to see someone say, "I wish I had never switched from extract to all grain."
I've seen lots of people say, "I wish I had gone all grain sooner."
I think partial mash is a great compromise, not much time / expense added to the overall process and it does give you the opportunity to shape the beer with the specialty grains and get a little more flavor control.
ArcticBear
Well-Known Member
pretty much the same reason i was all about making the switch
it certainly saves you time and space keeping with extracts, but most of the fun of brewing comes from the process (as well as the result) and the process is cut well in half using extracts.
if all you cared about was good results, you would just go buy a 6er of your favorite micro brew and call it a day, but you got into brewing to enjoy the subtleties that come from the hard work and process, not just the finished product, and there is certainly more process and hard work to be proud about when doing all grain
AG is well worth it. I like the ability to tweak my process to try new things to add different grains for specific tastes as well as the ability to get close to some of the original recipes. Using extract, really limits your knowledge of what is in that extract. It may be an amber extract or a pilsen extract but which grain is it made with? What else was added to it? Did the extract come from a single source or was it a mix of different grain, non of which you will actually be able to identify. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with extract brewing and I have made a lot of really great beer with using extract. Most find that as you advance in brewing, they want to get involved in the process a little more. Believe me I've had some AG brew days when I was wishing that I was brewing extract vs AG due to the time and cleanup involved. I agree with teh previous posters that partial is a great compromise.
beerloaf
beerloaf
Bernie Brewer
Grouchy Old Fart
See now I disagree. You are going through all the motions of mashing, sparging, etc, to get your wort, then adding extract. And it does indeed take the same amount of time as a full AG batch. To me that defeats the purpose of going through the work of mashing.
Going strictly by comments made by friends/family on my results:
Most impact to least impact:
1) Going from bottling to kegging/force carbonation.
2) Controlling fermentation temps (from water baths, etc. to controlled fridge).
3) Pitching the right amount of yeast (from smack pack to starter to starter/stir plate, etc.).
4) Going from partial mash to all grain.
All grain seemed to make a difference. Friends liked the beer better, but other things made bigger difference... it seemed.
It's fun!
Most impact to least impact:
1) Going from bottling to kegging/force carbonation.
2) Controlling fermentation temps (from water baths, etc. to controlled fridge).
3) Pitching the right amount of yeast (from smack pack to starter to starter/stir plate, etc.).
4) Going from partial mash to all grain.
All grain seemed to make a difference. Friends liked the beer better, but other things made bigger difference... it seemed.
It's fun!
amandabab
Well-Known Member
all switching to all grain did for me was to make me brew less and less. No real quality upgrade, no winter brewing, Fast extract days started happening more and more until all grain just wasn't getting done at all after a couple years. the important part is the boil and fermentation and no one really picks their all grain ingredients based on quality anyways, they buy the same 2/6row from the same 2-3 maltsters from whatever retailer has it the cheapest.
the fresh barley we harvest here, has to be shipped all the way to Wisconsin and back before we can mash those fresh ingredients, that are so much fresher than the extract that comes from Wisconsin
worksnorth
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not sure about the last part here, perhaps the quality part is correct because I don't have control of it per se.
However, if I hadn't started AG brewing I would never have found out that I didn't like Marris Otter as a base grain. At all.
I also can pick out store bought Craft beers which are made with Marris Otter and recognise it, and understand why I don't care for them.
So I guess it's partly an education process on beer ingredients too, finding out what you like and don't like.
Anyway.
Cheers
I've found that it depends on your PM method. For me, since I have to transport, setup, clean, and take down my MLT and HLT setup every time I brew, I've found doing a stovetop PM can save me a fair amount of time, easily an hour at minimum. I have also done partial mashes for really big beers using my full setup and, you are correct, it was no difference time wise than a normal AG day.
worksnorth said:
Your post made me laugh as I was just about to post that all grain let's me brew with non 2-row base malts, like my favorite (TF Maris Otter).
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
No real quality upgrade... Wow... Completely untrue for me.
No winter brewing... Why no winter brewing? Don't you have things like jackets where you are? I brew year round. Just means I need to adjust the mash slightly when I'm brewing in cold weather (under 20F). I have insulation I can add to the mash tun above what it already has for that. Easy as you can get.
the important part is the boil and fermentation... While the boil and fermentation ARE important, so is mashing the grains to get what you want. Using extract you're getting what someone else thinks you should use. Sorry, not for me.
no one really picks their all grain ingredients based on quality anyways... WTF?? I pick my grain BECAUSE of the quality of it. I pick my two base malts from one specific maltster every time I've purchased grain (I go in on group buys for this reason). The other grains I purchase come from either the same maltster, or one of two others. For me, quality and consistency of ingredient, as well as ensuring it's as fresh as possible are two of the reasons why I brew all grain. I crush the grains I'm using the same day/evening I'm brewing. Typically within 1-2 hours of when I actually start mashing.
I also get my hops in bulk, but break them up into 1-2oz bags (vacuum packed) as soon as I've opened the larger bag. They stay in the freezer too, to ensure freshness.
Then why don't you USE those grains instead of the extract??? Seems more than foolish, IMO, to use inferior ingredients in a brew when you have fresher available. Provided you WANT to use the fresher grain. Personally, I'm not using US 2-row in my batches.the fresh barley we harvest here, has to be shipped all the way to Wisconsin and back before we can mash those fresh ingredients, that are so much fresher than the extract that comes from Wisconsin
Seriously sounds like you don't have the right personality, or care enough, to brew all grain. Which is fine IF that's what you like to do. But, don't discount, or look down your nose at people that spend a bit more time, energy, effort, and CARE more about what goes into their brews. If I brew something and decide I want more or less body, I simply adjust the mash temp accordingly. I change nothing else and I'll see the effect of that one change. You, going with extract brewing, don't have that flexibility (at all).
amandabab
Well-Known Member
When was the last time you were at an elevator? picked or discarded a lot because spore count, moisture based on weight per cubic foot, hauler certificates.? You haven't. You buy whats in the sack based on the retailer and claim its picking based on quality. I've spent a lot more time with grain than anyone in MA.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the sign of a true jackhole...
BTW, I don't need to be up to my armpits in grain year after year to feel valid with my thoughts and my findings. I also don't need obscure references to make myself feel smarter. I have enough batches under my belt (or over it) to be able to tell the difference between grain I get via the group grain buys, stored properly, and the stuff the LHBS sells (your 'cheapest seller')...
Last post you'll see from me on this thread. I was going to post up more about why, but I feel it will be lost on the person it was going to be posted for. Keep brewing extract if you are looking for a quick batch. If you're limited due to family commitments, you have my sympathy and hope that you can [some day] brew all grain and see for yourself the difference.
BTW, there's a reason why breweries don't brew extract base with a few grains for flavors. There's a reason why they mash the grain for the brews. Obviously, they don't mind if it takes a bit longer to process the grain, compared with buying it already done. Also, if it wasn't safe to store grain as it is, either in sacks, other sealed containers (buckets, barrels, etc.) or silo's, health departments would be shutting down breweries left and right.
Also, I'm NOT buying my base malts, from a retailer. I'm part of group grain purchases that comes from the distributor. I guess that's too foreign a concept for you. I will purchase smaller amounts of grain (typically 5-10# at a time) from vendors I've used before, and have come to trust. That being said, I'm STILL getting grains from specific malting companies. Most often it's because they are the only ones who offer the grain I'm buying.
/Transmission
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
Never mind, there's been enough flame wars lately...
Yes
And the thread goes sideways.....
I prefer AG but to each their own
I prefer AG but to each their own
She stated an opinion about all grain brewing. Whether her opinion was right or misinformed, you shouldn't attack another brewer here. Yes, that's what you did. You took a short reply and picked it apart with your angry essays. Hmmm.
I like this post a lot!!!
I'm trying to avoid going to kegs, tho. I think bottling in 22oz bottles actually produces a SUPER-Beer.
But I will definitely be moving toward temp controlling the fermentation.
Thanks grndslm. I sincerely appreciate the comments.
Don't get me wrong, I've gotten nice compliments with bottled beer as well.
I've never entered any contests, but something worked ok.
If you can add a bit of temp control, cool! See what you think about the impact. I'd be interested to know if you think it made the same level of difference. Maybe I had another issue that was addressed at the same time?? It's all good.
I'm frankly amazed at the number of people who complain about the various efforts involved in brewing. I'm fairly certain it is possible to obtain beer, packaged and ready to drink!
Every step I took was based on budget and space, but time and effort was never really an issue. However, I'm one of those who can spend a Saturday working on a piece of perforated metal for a screen or just play with yeast. Getting something to drink is just what happens when I'm finished having fun.
All grain did add to my fun and success, but anything that gives me another avenue to experiment/study will lead me to it.
This is a great hobby. So many different levels and paths to take, and generally, results in an actual product to take pride in and enjoy.
If you can, give all grain a go. Why not?
Cheers
Don't get me wrong, I've gotten nice compliments with bottled beer as well.
I've never entered any contests, but something worked ok.
If you can add a bit of temp control, cool! See what you think about the impact. I'd be interested to know if you think it made the same level of difference. Maybe I had another issue that was addressed at the same time?? It's all good.
I'm frankly amazed at the number of people who complain about the various efforts involved in brewing. I'm fairly certain it is possible to obtain beer, packaged and ready to drink!
Every step I took was based on budget and space, but time and effort was never really an issue. However, I'm one of those who can spend a Saturday working on a piece of perforated metal for a screen or just play with yeast. Getting something to drink is just what happens when I'm finished having fun.
All grain did add to my fun and success, but anything that gives me another avenue to experiment/study will lead me to it.
This is a great hobby. So many different levels and paths to take, and generally, results in an actual product to take pride in and enjoy.
If you can, give all grain a go. Why not?
Cheers
So, uh, I brew whatever I have time for, PM, Extract, AG, can't I get any love?!?!?
This is true, that reason...the almighty dollar!!! HALLELUJAH!!! Can I get a witness from the congregation? :rockin:
Its all a matter of taste. Certain people have (or think they have ) ultra-refined pallets. It's like people that have better than 20/20 vision. It is rare but it exists and people like that might actually pick up on certain flavor cues that most of us just don't get no matter how hard we concentrate on the fluid passing our gums. I certainly don't get it because I've never tasted the infamous "extract twang" (whatever that's supposed to be) or been able to tell a difference between whole leaf hops or pellet despite having brewed with both. I have a friend that took home Best of Show in a homebrew competition showcasing over 200 beers with an extract beer.
The idea that AG is always better is sheer nonsense. To me it is like suggesting that an adjustable wrench is always better than a box-end. Sure you can pick and choose your gap but the tolerance can still swing a wide ways with an adjustable. If you know exactly where you're going a box-end will get you there just as well if not better. It's hard to slip when your gap measures exactly to what you are turning.
) ultra-refined pallets. It's like people that have better than 20/20 vision. It is rare but it exists and people like that might actually pick up on certain flavor cues that most of us just don't get no matter how hard we concentrate on the fluid passing our gums. I certainly don't get it because I've never tasted the infamous "extract twang" (whatever that's supposed to be) or been able to tell a difference between whole leaf hops or pellet despite having brewed with both. I have a friend that took home Best of Show in a homebrew competition showcasing over 200 beers with an extract beer.The idea that AG is always better is sheer nonsense. To me it is like suggesting that an adjustable wrench is always better than a box-end. Sure you can pick and choose your gap but the tolerance can still swing a wide ways with an adjustable. If you know exactly where you're going a box-end will get you there just as well if not better. It's hard to slip when your gap measures exactly to what you are turning.
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I personally think it is, it is definitely a new challenge. There may not be a steep learning curve, but it is fun narrowing it all down to your system and being able to make the beer you want, the way you want to make it.
In order to make it work economically and time-wise for me I have to make smaller batches ~3.5-4.0 gallons due to mash tun constraints and time-saving techniques which involve no mash out, nor sparging.
It is important to note that your first all grain beer will be about as good as your 20th. It will turn out perfectly fine. It'll probably take you 8 hours to brew it, and you'll likely literally sweat into your beer. It's the tweaking of your system which is fun.
In order to make it work economically and time-wise for me I have to make smaller batches ~3.5-4.0 gallons due to mash tun constraints and time-saving techniques which involve no mash out, nor sparging.
It is important to note that your first all grain beer will be about as good as your 20th. It will turn out perfectly fine. It'll probably take you 8 hours to brew it, and you'll likely literally sweat into your beer. It's the tweaking of your system which is fun.
+1
More variables to control, which is why alot of people see it as a progression, but as long as you're brewing its up to you how you want to proceed.
8 hours??? What is this? A quintuple decoction?
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My first all grain when I thought I had to mash out and sparge according to beersmith and books took me friggin forever. 8 hours may be underestimating it.
ArcticBear
Well-Known Member
i find that on the normal my all grain brew days go on for more than 6 hours...
time to heat the strike water
1-1.5 hours mash
0.5 hour to sparge (i usually get grains stuck in my false bottom which slows everything down)
0.5 hour to get it to boil
1 - 1.5 hour boil
0.5 hour to chill
0.5 hour to rack into fermenter and pitch
these are rough estimates but i did find that it takes me a long time to brew an all grain batch... (started one at 4pm yesterday and didnt have the yeast pitched until 1130)
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Do you guys pencil in time for constant interruptions from the wife and kids?
ArcticBear
Well-Known Member
no wife or kids just yet, but i do have to constantly play defense from a nosy pitbull and weimaraner during mash out and racking...
during mashing this time i ran out to the LHBS (its 2 miles away
) and picked up a 16.5 gallon fermenter and grabbed some bacon pizza from grand apizza in clinton CT.with the exception of the weather being a little cold and not having a chair on the deck it was a pretty good brew day...oh yeah and dealing with my immersion chiller pissing garden hose water into my keggle because a fitting was loose...
all in all, all grain is just more fun if you can appreciate the time it takes and the process... it can be frustrating at times but it also can be relaxing and rewarding, especially if your setting a day aside for it and have nothing to worry about you can just take your time and relax with a beer as you brew
zyx345
Well-Known Member
I also found the above to be true regarding Extract batches and some of mine seemed to form a subtle aftertaste/twang that I was able to pick up, but my friends didn't.
As an apartment dweller, I'm able to do BIAB All Grain batches by splitting the boil between two pots (4 & 5 gallon) and splitting the hop additions accordingly. Only upgrades I made were a cooler and wort chiller.
My first all grain took me 7 hours but that was due to an hour batch sparge soak which I now know I don't need to do that long.
Ultimately I decided to do all grain to obtain a more complex flavor in the beer and to get that back end grain aftertaste that I felt was missing or too subdued in my prior Extract and PM brews.
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I'm beginning to think this is a myth. This twang I've gotten from all grain and extract. Don't quote me though, I know no science behind this claim.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
The only "twang" that I have encountered is from a ph problem with making a dark extract beer. something about the base malts mellows the PH from the dark grains and when the base malts are DME it doesn't work the same.
A tsp or so of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) goes into all of my dark brews.
A tsp or so of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) goes into all of my dark brews.
cheezydemon3
Well-Known Member
Really, time and convenience are the only variables for me.
If I was independantly wealthy and didn't work and could afford unlimited childcare there would be no question. AG all day.
With my constraints? forget it.
If I was independantly wealthy and didn't work and could afford unlimited childcare there would be no question. AG all day.
With my constraints? forget it.
if it took me consistently more than 3.5 hours to brew I wouldn't do AG. wow 6 hours?
my brew day:
30 min to heat 15 gal h20
40 min mash/recirc/sparge 20min mash, 5-10min recirc/sparge
20min bring to boil
60min boil
15min chill direct to fermenter
10 sec pitch yeast
20-30 min clean and put away
these times are for a 10 gal batch and winter times. summer goes faster due to faster time to heat.
all grain brewing motto: Cheaper, faster, more customization!
Have you ever used a timer? I just find that hard to believe, though obviously it's possible. 6 hours is about right for me too.
Huh, you folks must be better at multitasking than I am / have no gaps between tasks.
EDIT: Do you folks pre-measure your mineral additions the night before? Do you pretreat your water? I'm guessing you measure your hops ahead of time and don't check your pH? I'm curious.
EDIT: Do you folks pre-measure your mineral additions the night before? Do you pretreat your water? I'm guessing you measure your hops ahead of time and don't check your pH? I'm curious.
Yankeehillbrewer
Well-Known Member
Man that's fast, I'm 5 1/2 on my best days, but usually right 6. Are you doing no-sparge/no-chill?
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Some how they have gapped the time-space continuum. Rest times alone add up to longer than 2 hours. They must have found a way to circumvent latent heat.
If I didn't just finish heat transfer I'd have the enthusiasm to calculate how long it takes stuff to get to certain temps and experience phase changes. But, that class kicked my rear end.
My brew day is calculated between the time I begin gathering my equipment until everything is cleaned.
Something like this:
Heat mash water/get rest of equipment out 30'
Mash/heat sparge water 60'
Drain mash/single batch sparge 20'
Bring to boil 20'
Boil 60'
Immersion chiller cool/ wash other equipment with IC outflow water 20-30'
Drain to carboy with venturi aerating tube 1'
Pitch 1'
Wow, if my AG days were eight hours plus, I would be doing only extract. I normally take around six hours, but that includes hauling all my equipment down from the second floor to the patio and setting up and then cleaning and putting it all away at the end of the day.
