bobbytuck
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- Apr 12, 2010
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So, I came across John Kimmich on this ChopAndBrew YouTube video speaking on all things beer:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdfySDN2mF0[/ame]
Of particular interest is the water treatment discussion starting at around the 42:00 mark.
But at 43:14, he says something confusing: "If you're not hitting between 5.1 and 5.3, you're at a disadvantage."
Then he goes on to say that anything -- anything -- above 5.3 is hopeless.
My understanding from reading here for years and the Palmer water treatment book is that anything in the 5.2 to 5.6 range is acceptable. And for darker beers, the preference tends to be in the 5.4 to 5.6 range.
What Kimmich is saying doesn't necessarily go against any of this -- he's speaking, I assume, about his own HeadyTopper -- but I'm wondering if (in general) the common-wisdom 5.2 to 5.6 target levels is a bit misleading? Should we, in fact, be aiming at 5.2 instead of 5.4? Will it make that much of a difference as Kimmich seems to (emphatically) imply?
After seeing this, I've been working on Pale Ales (100% RO) and using fairly high sulfate additions (and low chloride additions). I use phosphoric acid to bring it down into the 5.1 to 5.2 range. It's a pretty narrow window, but on the past few beers, I've been successful -- one was too low(under 5.1) -- and one hit 5.23 or so @ 75F.
I've also been increasing my bittering and late hop additions to compensate for this low pH. Some purely anecdotal observations after two pale ales (around 95% 2-row, 5% munich or vienna (1 batch with carapils, one batch without -- and no caramel. Mash temp between 148 to 150.):
- Cooled into the fermenter is incredibly (to my mediocre palette, at least) sharp and snappy -- hoppy as hell from the late additions. Much more so than my older 5.4 to 5.6 beers which were always sweet and malty and not very hoppy at all. The bitterness in the cooled wort is front and center. No malty fuzziness. It's sweet, of course, so it's hard to distinguish for certain. But the cooled wort definitely pops (inasmuch as cooled, sugary wort can actually pop).
- Out of the fermenter, the finished, kegged beer is quite a bit sharper. It has a bite, but it's not unpleasant. Hops are there. I've been using Safale-05 to keep the yeast as neutral as possible. The beers are only a few weeks old, so I don't know if they'll change more over time. I know, too, that as the beer carbonates the carbonic acid adds (usually) a not unpleasant sharpness. So there's that, too.
I guess my question is this: if I like what I'm making, it's obviously the way to go. And I'll keep targeting 5.1 to 5.2 for now. But is Kimmich's view -- that if you're over 5.3 you're hopelessly lost -- a fairly common view among professional brewers (for IPAs and similar beers, I assume)? I haven't tried this yet with a stout or porter -- but would this kind of pH make the darker beers overly acrid and sharp?
BTW, Kimmich also implies that a lower pH is more forgiving in the finished beer than a high pH. So this makes me wonder if, in fact, it is better to target the 5.1 to 5.2 window -- and then assume if I go too low (as I did with one beer above) I'll be okay. (Whatever "okay" means in this context -- I'm not sure. Astringency in the wort? Poor efficiency? I'm doing BIAB, and I'm getting 60% efficiency. Low, I know, but I'd rather just compensate with more grain than to work another variable -- sparging -- into the mix. Most BIABers don't sparge anyway -- as I gather that's the point. Thin mashes, low efficiency, no sparging -- relatively quick brewday.)
As I say, I'm confused. I was always afraid to go *under* the accepted pH norm of 5.4 -- but now I'm intrigued.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdfySDN2mF0[/ame]
Of particular interest is the water treatment discussion starting at around the 42:00 mark.
But at 43:14, he says something confusing: "If you're not hitting between 5.1 and 5.3, you're at a disadvantage."
Then he goes on to say that anything -- anything -- above 5.3 is hopeless.
My understanding from reading here for years and the Palmer water treatment book is that anything in the 5.2 to 5.6 range is acceptable. And for darker beers, the preference tends to be in the 5.4 to 5.6 range.
What Kimmich is saying doesn't necessarily go against any of this -- he's speaking, I assume, about his own HeadyTopper -- but I'm wondering if (in general) the common-wisdom 5.2 to 5.6 target levels is a bit misleading? Should we, in fact, be aiming at 5.2 instead of 5.4? Will it make that much of a difference as Kimmich seems to (emphatically) imply?
After seeing this, I've been working on Pale Ales (100% RO) and using fairly high sulfate additions (and low chloride additions). I use phosphoric acid to bring it down into the 5.1 to 5.2 range. It's a pretty narrow window, but on the past few beers, I've been successful -- one was too low(under 5.1) -- and one hit 5.23 or so @ 75F.
I've also been increasing my bittering and late hop additions to compensate for this low pH. Some purely anecdotal observations after two pale ales (around 95% 2-row, 5% munich or vienna (1 batch with carapils, one batch without -- and no caramel. Mash temp between 148 to 150.):
- Cooled into the fermenter is incredibly (to my mediocre palette, at least) sharp and snappy -- hoppy as hell from the late additions. Much more so than my older 5.4 to 5.6 beers which were always sweet and malty and not very hoppy at all. The bitterness in the cooled wort is front and center. No malty fuzziness. It's sweet, of course, so it's hard to distinguish for certain. But the cooled wort definitely pops (inasmuch as cooled, sugary wort can actually pop).
- Out of the fermenter, the finished, kegged beer is quite a bit sharper. It has a bite, but it's not unpleasant. Hops are there. I've been using Safale-05 to keep the yeast as neutral as possible. The beers are only a few weeks old, so I don't know if they'll change more over time. I know, too, that as the beer carbonates the carbonic acid adds (usually) a not unpleasant sharpness. So there's that, too.
I guess my question is this: if I like what I'm making, it's obviously the way to go. And I'll keep targeting 5.1 to 5.2 for now. But is Kimmich's view -- that if you're over 5.3 you're hopelessly lost -- a fairly common view among professional brewers (for IPAs and similar beers, I assume)? I haven't tried this yet with a stout or porter -- but would this kind of pH make the darker beers overly acrid and sharp?
BTW, Kimmich also implies that a lower pH is more forgiving in the finished beer than a high pH. So this makes me wonder if, in fact, it is better to target the 5.1 to 5.2 window -- and then assume if I go too low (as I did with one beer above) I'll be okay. (Whatever "okay" means in this context -- I'm not sure. Astringency in the wort? Poor efficiency? I'm doing BIAB, and I'm getting 60% efficiency. Low, I know, but I'd rather just compensate with more grain than to work another variable -- sparging -- into the mix. Most BIABers don't sparge anyway -- as I gather that's the point. Thin mashes, low efficiency, no sparging -- relatively quick brewday.)
As I say, I'm confused. I was always afraid to go *under* the accepted pH norm of 5.4 -- but now I'm intrigued.