IPA Changing Color After Kegging

[Korx]

Hey all, I have recently been having an issue with our IPA changing color after kegging or canning and can't quite seem to figure out what's causing it, hoping that some advice could be shed on the project. I'll start with saying we have a 20 gallon electric brewery consisting of SS Brewtech equipment for the most part, a 1/2 bbl conical fermenter from SS Brewtech, and a Blichmann plate chiller.

We recently made a couple batches of IPA which one changed color in the kegs and the other changed color in the cans. The beer was a beautiful color prior to this as you can see from the pictures below and then after we canned/kegged - we use the Oktober Design can seamer and Blichmann beer gun for purging and filling cans - and it sat for a week it darkened to the color of the second picture (I apologize for the poor lighting – but it is a much darker muddy color). The first beer we made, which I do not have any pictures of, changed color in the keg prior to canning while the second was fine coming out of the keg but changed color in the cans. The odd thing to me is that it seems to be changing on week 4 after brewing. The first IPA (color changed in the keg) wasn’t canned until week 4, and the second IPA (color changed in cans) was canned on week 3 and the picture was taken on week 4.

My first thought after the first batch that did this was oxidation. I changed a few things in our process for the second batch including closed transfers from conical to co2 purged keg but still got the same result of a beer changing color post packaging.

Our recipe pretty much consists of the following for a final batch size of 15 gallons (we did add a little carapils):
29 lbs 13.7 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
5 lbs 7.4 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)
1 lbs 1.5 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM)
1.00 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min
2.25 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
2.25 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 5.0 min
1.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
2.25 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min
2.25 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min
1.50 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min
4.0 pkg London Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) [124.21 ml]
3.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days
3.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days
3.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
3.50 oz Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
2.00 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days

We also change the water profile using Bru'N water to reflect roughly 180 ppm chloride and 100 ppm sulfate based on the water testing that we had done. The water testing on our well water which we use to brew is as follows (ppm):
pH: 6.6
TDS: 52
Na: 3
K: 2
Ca: 7
Mg: 3
CaCO3 cation Hardness: 30
NO3: 0.9
SO4: 4
Cl: 4
CO3: <1.0
HCO3: 21
CaCO3 anion alkalinity: 17

Anyone have any thoughts on what could be causing this? I am not sure if our water could be effecting it, our process, our recipe or something else. We have not yet made any changed to our water other than adding gypsum and calcium chloride based on Bru’N waters recommendations based on what we were looking for and our grain bill. It is hard to believe that it could be oxidation, but it could very well be. Thanks!

 

[jmcquesten]

Hey all, I have recently been having an issue with our IPA changing color after kegging or canning and can't quite seem to figure out what's causing it, hoping that some advice could be shed on the project. I'll start with saying we have a 20 gallon electric brewery consisting of SS Brewtech equipment for the most part, a 1/2 bbl conical fermenter from SS Brewtech, and a Blichmann plate chiller.

We recently made a couple batches of IPA which one changed color in the kegs and the other changed color in the cans. The beer was a beautiful color prior to this as you can see from the pictures below and then after we canned/kegged - we use the Oktober Design can seamer and Blichmann beer gun for purging and filling cans - and it sat for a week it darkened to the color of the second picture (I apologize for the poor lighting – but it is a much darker muddy color). The first beer we made, which I do not have any pictures of, changed color in the keg prior to canning while the second was fine coming out of the keg but changed color in the cans. The odd thing to me is that it seems to be changing on week 4 after brewing. The first IPA (color changed in the keg) wasn’t canned until week 4, and the second IPA (color changed in cans) was canned on week 3 and the picture was taken on week 4.

My first thought after the first batch that did this was oxidation. I changed a few things in our process for the second batch including closed transfers from conical to co2 purged keg but still got the same result of a beer changing color post packaging.

Our recipe pretty much consists of the following for a final batch size of 15 gallons (we did add a little carapils):
29 lbs 13.7 ozPale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
5 lbs 7.4 ozOats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)
1 lbs 1.5 ozWhite Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM)
1.00 ozColumbus/Tomahawk/Zeus (CTZ) [15.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min
2.25 ozGalaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
2.25 ozMosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Boil 5.0 min
1.50 ozCitra [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min
2.25 ozGalaxy [14.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min
2.25 ozMosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min
1.50 ozCitra [12.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool 15.0 min
4.0 pkgLondon Ale III (Wyeast Labs #1318) [124.21 ml]
3.50 ozGalaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days
3.50 ozMosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days
2.00 ozCitra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 7.0 Days
3.50 ozGalaxy [14.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
3.50 ozMosaic (HBC 369) [12.25 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days
2.00 ozCitra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days

We also change the water profile using Bru'N water to reflect roughly 180 ppm chloride and 100 ppm sulfate based on the water testing that we had done. The water testing on our well water which we use to brew is as follows (ppm):
pH: 6.6
TDS: 52
Na: 3
K: 2
Ca: 7
Mg: 3
CaCO3 cation Hardness: 30
NO3: 0.9
SO4: 4
Cl: 4
CO3: <1.0
HCO3: 21
CaCO3 anion alkalinity: 17

Anyone have any thoughts on what could be causing this? I am not sure if our water could be effecting it, our process, our recipe or something else. We have not yet made any changed to our water other than adding gypsum and calcium chloride based on Bru’N waters recommendations based on what we were looking for and our grain bill. It is hard to believe that it could be oxidation, but it could very well be. Thanks!

That really seems like oxidation. Does it taste oxidized/cardboardy?

 

[cornflake]

My guess is the yeast settled out...

 

[IslandLizard]

Aside from the darkening, if the aroma and flavors have dulled too it most likely points to oxidation.

How and when did you dry hop? How long has the beer been in the fermentor?

Was the keg 100% liquid pre-purged, or only flushed with CO2?

Oxidation could have happened much earlier in the process, not just at packaging, showing its ugly signs later.
Although you flush the can with the beer gun before you fill it, there is NO CO2 blanket covering your beer when you put the lid on and crimp it. The pro canning lines must have better ways to keep the air out.

How is the beer straight from the keg right now? Has it darkened too?

 

[Chrisbrewbeers]

I heard something about having to passivate the SS or it will cause oxidation

 

[Korx]

Aside from the darkening, if the aroma and flavors have dulled too it most likely points to oxidation.

How and when did you dry hop? How long has the beer been in the fermentor?

Was the keg 100% liquid pre-purged, or only flushed with CO2?

Oxidation could have happened much earlier in the process, not just at packaging, showing its ugly signs later.
Although you flush the can with the beer gun before you fill it, there is NO CO2 blanket covering your beer when you put the lid on and crimp it. The pro canning lines must have better ways to keep the air out.

How is the beer straight from the keg right now? Has it darkened too?

To me the flavor/aroma hasn't changed a whole lot. Unfortunately we do not have any left in the keg since this one came out with such nice color we thought it was good and canned it all. Generally during canning we fill right to the lid and use the lid to push out any excess so that there isn't much head space if any between lid and liquid. The kegs were filled with star san which was then pushed out with CO2 then purged 5 times just in case. I am curious where the oxidation could have happened, we dry hopped twice by taking off the triclamp/blowoff adapter on top of our conical and dropping loose pellets in the beer. Then after a week or so we dump the trub, beer is cold crashed for 3 days and trub is dumped again and we use the racking port on the conical to put directly into a CO2 purged keg.

I was hoping it could be something else but maybe oxidation could be the culprit, I'm just at a loss at what to change to fix the problem.

 

[schatzke]

How do you like that canner? The idea of canning my brew instead of bottles is very appealing.

 

[IslandLizard]

Sounds like you're canning the right way, leaving minimal headspace, can't get much less than that.

Your 100% liquid pre-purges are definitely in line with O2 reduced transfers, as well as we can.

FWIW, after a 100% liquid pre-purge there's no point in purging again, the difference of O2 reduction that way is negligible and wastes a lot of gas that can be better used elsewhere. If you're after reducing any amount of O2 that may gotten stuck under the lid after all the magic tricks, do this. After pushing out the first quart, purge the headspace 5x at ~30 psi, when the headspace volume is still small and O2 concentration is "relatively high." Not perfect, but probably 50x better than leaving it till later.

That leaves hot side aeration and oxidation during or after fermentation.

I'm gonna shoot some ideas and thoughts. Nothing very specific or researched. I'm always wondering about pesky oversights.

You don't have a huge headspace left in your conical during fermentation, do you? Unused oxygen from wort oxygenation may hang out there. I'm trying to rationalize the amount of O2 left there, how long it remains, and if it can do any harm.

When adding dry hops (to the keg usually) I always stream CO2 through a 2nd port (gas-in) to have a positive gas outflow when opening the keg's lid to add dry hops. Headspace gets purged 5-10x afterwards. Again, all in an effort trying to minimize O2 introduction while working with an open fermentor.

Are you streaming some CO2 into the headspace while dry hopping to prevent air from leaking in?

Same for when dumping trub and yeast. I know you can't pressurize it (or much) while dumping.
How about when cold crashing?

Still, those are all very small amounts of air/O2 influx, if at all. Do they really add up to cause the problem?

 

[Korx]

How do you like that canner? The idea of canning my brew instead of bottles is very appealing.

Love it. Don't have to worry about collecting growlers or taking up keg space. Easy enough to give out your brews to friends and family. Although cans are a bit expensive from them, there isn't much source to get them anywhere for the small amount we use, unfortunately. I'd like to be able to order up a pallet of them and then store them if I could get them for cheaper.

Sounds like you're canning the right way, leaving minimal headspace, can't get much less than that.

Your 100% liquid pre-purges are definitely in line with CO2 reduced transfers, as well as we can.

FWIW, after a 100% liquid pre-purge there's no point in purging again, the difference of O2 reduction that way is negligible and wastes a lot of gas that can be better used elsewhere. If you're after reducing any amount of O2 that may gotten stuck under the lid after all the magic tricks, do this. After pushing out the first quart, purge the headspace 5x at ~30 psi, when the headspace volume is still small and O2 concentration is "relatively high." Not perfect, but probably 50x better than leaving it till later.

That leaves hot side aeration and oxidation during or after fermentation.

I'm gonna shoot some ideas and thoughts. Nothing very specific or researched. I'm always wondering about pesky oversights.

You don't have a huge headspace left in your conical during fermentation, do you? Unused oxygen from wort oxygenation may hang out there. I'm trying to rationalize the amount of O2 left there, how long it remains, and if it can do any harm.

When adding dry hops (to the keg usually) I always stream CO2 through a 2nd port (gas-in) to have a positive gas outflow when opening the keg's lid to add dry hops. Headspace gets purged 5-10x afterwards. Again, all in an effort trying to minimize O2 introduction while working with an open fermentor.

Are you streaming some CO2 into the headspace while dry hopping to prevent air from leaking in?

Same for when dumping trub and yeast. I know you can't pressurize it (or much) while dumping.
How about when cold crashing?

Still, those are all very small amounts of air/O2 influx, if at all. Do they really add up to cause the problem?

We generally have about 15-16 gallons in our fermentor when it&#8217;s all said and done. That leaves us at 2-3&#8221; below the rim of the conical where the lid sits. The conical does have a dome shaped lid which does lend to some headspace as well. We currently don&#8217;t blow any O2 into the out port oh headspace after dry hopping, I presume that could effect if but it&#8217;s hard to believe it would make this drastic of a change. I appreciate your input, I hope to nail this down but I am a little gun-shy to brew another until I can figure it out.

 

[IslandLizard]

We generally have about 15-16 gallons in our fermentor when it’s all said and done. That leaves us at 2-3” below the rim of the conical where the lid sits. The conical does have a dome shaped lid which does lend to some headspace as well. We currently don’t blow any O2 into the out port oh headspace after dry hopping, I presume that could effect if but it’s hard to believe it would make this drastic of a change. I appreciate your input, I hope to nail this down but I am a little gun-shy to brew another until I can figure it out.

That's not a huge headspace, nothing to worry about.

You meant blowing CO2, yes?

The comment about thoroughly cleaning and passivating your conical (and kettle if it's new) is very valid. Maybe you've got metal oxides in your beer. That BrewTech equipment is very DIRTY!

 

[Korx]

That's not a huge headspace, nothing to worry about.

You meant blowing CO2, yes?

The comment about thoroughly cleaning and passivating your conical (and kettle if it's new) is very valid. Maybe you've got metal oxides in your beer. That BrewTech equipment is very DIRTY!

Yes, certainly meant CO2 my bad.

We passivated all equipment prior to initial use. We have brewed other beers besides these, including a stout, apa, and the Sandy IPA which did not discolor like this one did. We clean with all stainless with PBW and starsan after every use and then starsan again prior to each use.

 

[freisste]

Cold crash pulling in O2? Do you have positive pressure CO2 during the crash? I've read anecdotal stories (not exactly science projects) about oxidation due to that.

That was my first thought.

 

[jmark]

Those NE style IPAs are notorious for their poor shelf life. There are several threads that talk about this, but I'm not sure there's a consensus on how to resolve (at least if you ignore the LODO folks, some of whom I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them).

Personally, I take all the same precautions you do with respect to limiting O2 and while most of my beers don't show any sign of oxidation even 6 months later, my NE IPAs start to fade within a couple of weeks... turning that obnoxious muddy color. I was listening to a podcast the other morning, I think it was a BeerSmith podcast, and the interviewee was speculating that the intensive dry hopping may be causing oxidizing compounds to form. Who knows... Until somebody figures this out, I'lI just continue to drink my NE brews fast!

 

[thereverendmaynard]

I would also look at cold crash sucking in o2. How are you preventing this? I have been trying to get a two chamber blow off tube setup - but havent found a good sealed first chamber (Blow off into first sealed chamber - then a second tube into a bucket with star san. When you are having active fermentation it blows the co2 into the sealed first chamber. When you cold crash - it will suck the star san from the bucket into the first chamber (and draw co2 back into the fermenter instead of air).

Another option - limit your cold crash. I have a nice NEIPA in the keg - and no signs of oxidation. I limit my cold crash to ~ 12-24 hrs max- just enough to drop the suspended hopss to make kegging easier - otherwise my closed transfer using normal beer line fittings tends to clog.

 

[jmark]

With cold crashing (and transferring) you could use a propane regulator to ensure that only c02 gets pulled in.

http://www.homebrewing.com/equipment/cask-co2-breather/

 

[brandonlovesbeer]

I brewed a beer back in 2012. One of these days I'll find the video from start to ... Dumping the entire batch.
It went from crystal clear light Amber to puke brown infected bottle bombs.

 

[Gmull70]

Wondering if you ever found a solution to your problem. I have the same issue. I'm doing everything I can think of to limit the o2 from coming in contact with my beer