Interesting experiment regarding Trub into the fermenter

[Bowtiebrewery]

I decided to read a bit more on this, and we all seem to have our thoughts on how clear wort into the fermenter might or should result in clearer final product, however upon reading this blog where the brewer tested this theory, I'm not so sure that hold's true anymore.

http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/

Now obviously, we should take this with a grain of salt, as he only tested this once and with one style of beer. I imagine that should the brewer be able to determine what flavors, profiles and or aromas are more important in the style, rather than clarity, he/she could make a case to leave trub in or leave it out.

This also goes slightly against what Jamil Z has written and expanded upon previously regarding his recommended best practices to ensure less Trub gets into the Fermenter. I have tons and tons of respect for Jamil, and have tried to adhere much of what he has taught, but this experiment has given me a new way to look at how truly vital it is to eliminate the trub from the fermenter.

 

[Rockn_M]

This last beer I made a few weeks ago was using my new electric brewery and using a hop stopper and I was amazed how little trub I had at the bottom of the fermentor when I went to keg it. In the past I have always done BIAB and dumped everything in the fermentor and had probably 3-4 inches of trub at the bottom after fermentation was complete. I am doing another batch on the electric brewery this weekend, I'll be interest to see how much trub will be there when I keg it in a few weeks.

 

[fimpster]

....as he only tested this once and with one style of beer.

He's actually tested it another time. LINK

@brulosopher is a member here, and there is a thread around talking about this exBEERiment.

I for one don't worry about trub in my fermentor anymore, and I can achieve crystal clear beer, especially when fining with gelatin, another technique Marshall has tested. He has a great blog, one of my favorites.

 

[Pkrd]

The most important thing about this, by far, is the extra bottle of beer you can get out of the non trubby carboy.

 

[doug293cz]

The most important thing about this, by far, is the extra bottle of beer you can get out of the non trubby carboy.

You can leave the trub in the BK or the fermenter. You'll lose about the same amount of volume either way, as long as you cold crash after fermentation to compact the trub layer. If you leave the trub in the BK your total volume in the fermenter will be less. And, depending on how you filter the trub going into the fermenter, you could actually end up with a lower volume of clear beer after fermentation. Your "extra bottle" is most likely imaginary. TANSTAAFL

Brew on

 

[Pkrd]

I have plenty of room in my kettle, I'm always pushing the "I don't need a blowoff" envelope.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

There's another experiment written up somewhere on the net comparing trub to no trub in the fermenter....the trub-ey beer was clearer than non trub-ey (marginally) but the taste was different (again marginally) with the writer preferring the trubey.

I can't remember where I read it though.

I like to harvest yeast without washing, so prefer to dump trub.

Edit - I just realised the link was the article I had read.....maybe it's time to dump the trub into my fermenter

 

[Calder]

I decided to read a bit more on this, and we all seem to have our thoughts on how clear wort into the fermenter might or should result in clearer final product.

I'd like to know where you get the idea that clearer wort into the fermemter = clearer beer. I have never read that anywhere. In fact, I believe it has been shown that a little trub supports healthy yeast growth.

I minimize trub because I harvest yeast and want it as clean as I can get it.

 

[doug293cz]

I'd like to know where you get the idea that clearer wort into the fermemter = clearer beer. I have never read that anywhere. In fact, I believe it has been shown that a little trub supports healthy yeast growth.

I minimize trub because I harvest yeast and want it as clean as I can get it.

A way to get really clean yeast is to harvest from oversize starters. Make more yeast cells than you need and then split between your pitch and jars to bank the extra.

Brew on

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Agreed as usual doug

I usually whirlpool lightly while chilling and leave whatever the ball valve leaves in the kettle, unless I'm under on my volume. I found if i wait about 20 minutes after whirlpool, the wort that the ballvalve doesn't pick up is basically all trub/proteins, I might get one more pint out of dumping it all but will take up about .25-.5gal more of headspace that I won't have in the fermenter. So if I need the headspace, say a high ferm temp or a high OG and I expect a vigorous krausen then I'm more inclined to not dump it all in.

just my 2cents

 

[Qhrumphf]

My understanding with trub was a double edged sword. It has less to do with clarity of beer, and more to do with flavor and beer quality. Trub provides yeast nutrition, but also lends excess fatty acids that can accelerate staling. So a little may be better than none, but a little is better than a lot, that's my takeaway.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

I have found my beers on the trub start more quickly, ferment more vigorously and finish a day or two quicker. I also noticed I get more hop aroma when adding all the trub (I don't use a hop spider or hop bag). Lately I have been leaving all the trub in the brew pot at a loss of efficiency. I compensate by using more grain. As the trub/yeast cake is smaller, I bottle more beers per batch and the yeast cake is cleaner and easier to harvest. I have not noticed any change in clarity or off flavors either way. Each way seems to have it's advantages.

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

Just for comparison's sake on my own rig. I am testing this out on a brew that I'm making right now. I will be whirlpooling for about 20 minutes with an IC, then going straight to a plate chiller to the fermenter... I guess we will find out just how much Trub I can leave behind, as well as how much stays out of the fermenter.

So far the brew day is going well. Maxed out my MT though... probably not a good idea to do a 1.080 beer in a 15g keggle for a 12G Batch... Oh well live and learn.

 

[Calder]

A way to get really clean yeast is to harvest from oversize starters. Make more yeast cells than you need and then split between your pitch and jars to bank the extra.

Brew on

But it is also a lot more work than just taking a quarter of the cake and straight pitching!

I actually do both. I save some starter for the next time I want to do a series with the yeast. It will keep in the fridge for a couple of years. I pitch slurry when using the yeast in consecutive brews.

 

[interman]

Started dumping in most of the trub after reading this article when it came out. The added efficiency is nice, and I've detected no issues with staling or any other off-flavors so far. I cold crash most of the brews I make, and it's just as clear as I was getting by carefully whirlpooling and focusing on clear wort. Don't see any reason to go back as of now.

 

[Brulosopher]

There's another experiment written up somewhere on the net comparing trub to no trub in the fermenter....the trub-ey beer was clearer than non trub-ey (marginally) but the taste was different (again marginally) with the writer preferring the trubey.

I can't remember where I read it though.

I like to harvest yeast without washing, so prefer to dump trub.

Edit - I just realised the link was the article I had read.....maybe it's time to dump the trub into my fermenter

Matt Del Fiacco replicated the experiment and wrote about it on his great blog:

http://tobrewabeer.com/trub-vs-no-trub-replicating-the-great-trub-exbeeriment/

I'd like to know where you get the idea that clearer wort into the fermemter = clearer beer. I have never read that anywhere. In fact, I believe it has been shown that a little trub supports healthy yeast growth.

I minimize trub because I harvest yeast and want it as clean as I can get it.

It sort of makes logical sense that "clearer wort = clearer beer," though in practice I've found it's not necessarily true. I don't intentionally coax all trub into my fermentors, but I have stopped caring and can't complain with the results.

Have you considered harvesting yeast from starters or even just not rinsing the stuff from the bottom of the carboy? We've got a bunch of xBmts planned to test this stuff out, but in my anecdotal experience, rinsing is wholly unnecessary and most likely hard on the yeast.

My understanding with trub was a double edged sword. It has less to do with clarity of beer, and more to do with flavor and beer quality. Trub provides yeast nutrition, but also lends excess fatty acids that can accelerate staling. So a little may be better than none, but a little is better than a lot, that's my takeaway.

Since I've stopped worrying about trub in the fermentor, I've easily made 70+ batches, many of which have sat around for 8+ weeks, and I've noticed no staling or negative impact on head retention.

Cheers!

 

[TheHappyHopper]

I will also throw my anecdotal evidence into the ring -

When I started brewing, I thought that in order to make the clearest beer possible, I needed to filter out the trub after the boil.

After reading the xBmt by @Brulosopher, I have started just dumping the whole kettle in. I still use a funnel and stainless steel strainer - it has holes just big enough to catch the hops particles, but the rest of the trub goes through. I haven't noticed any off flavors from doing this - I typically see fermentation take off within 12 hours, and my clarity is just as good as it was before when I tried to strain everything out.

As for harvesting yeast - I have done it several different ways. Either make a larger starter than I need and fill several test tubes with yeast (1/3 filled with glycerin) and freeze, repitch onto the old yeast cake if I am making a similar beer, or harvest the yeast (without washing) from the primary fermenter and freeze in test tubes (with glycerin). All 3 methods have produced great results and I could not detect off flavors (of course I have not done any side by side comparisons).

 

[Calder]

Have you considered harvesting yeast from starters or even just not rinsing the stuff from the bottom of the carboy? We've got a bunch of xBmts planned to test this stuff out, but in my anecdotal experience, rinsing is wholly unnecessary and most likely hard on the yeast

I never said I didn't harvest starters, nor did I say I washed the slurry!

I do harvest from starters and find it keeps well for up to 30 months - never gone longer!

I use slurry for beers brewed within a couple of months of harvesting. Rule of thumb is to use a quarter to a third of the cake for the same size beer. No starter, no wash, no messing around. I don't mess with washing, except for unusual circumstances.

 

[ArcLight]

What happens if some hops end up in the fermentor?
Does it make the beer extra bitter?
Or does it sink and the flavor get scrubbed by the CO2?

In other words - if I didn't use hops bags and instead did a crappy/not very effective whirlpool, and got an ounce or two of hops sludge into my fermentor (an IPA) what impact would that have?
I don't want a grassy/vegetal taste from an "extended dry hop" for example.


http://tobrewabeer.com/
comes up with nothing, its blank

 

[bigdaddybrew]

I have not done a side by side comparison but it seems like I get more hop flavor when I put the hop sludge into the carboy. Perhaps the extended contact time increases the amount of flavor extraction? It doesn't seem to change the bitterness. I noticed when I left the sudge in the pot in an attempt to gain some carboy space the beer just wasn't as hoppy as it was when I had previously brewed the same recipe including all the trub/sludge.

I know Brulosopher has done the experiment finding a negligible difference but my perception is there was more hop flavor when I included the hop sludge. It was a lightly hopped pale ale, very light with a dry finish. It had a 20 minute addition and an ounce of flame out hops. Cascade I think. Again just a perception not a side by side comparison.

 

[RM-MN]

I have not done a side by side comparison but it seems like I get more hop flavor when I put the hop sludge into the carboy. Perhaps the extended contact time increases the amount of flavor extraction? It doesn't seem to change the bitterness. I noticed when I left the sudge in the pot in an attempt to gain some carboy space the beer just wasn't as hoppy as it was when I had previously brewed the same recipe including all the trub/sludge.

I know Brulosopher has done the experiment finding a negligible difference but my perception is there was more hop flavor when I included the hop sludge. It was a lightly hopped pale ale, very light with a dry finish. It had a 20 minute addition and an ounce of flame out hops. Cascade I think. Again just a perception not a side by side comparison.

It shouldn't change the bitterness because that requires temperature in excess of about 180 F. Cooler temperature won't cause the isomerization that makes the bitter.