Infection Problem... help?

[TheMattTrain]

I've got an infection problem. I'm not sure where it's coming from and I'm not sure what to do about it. I'm not even sure what kind of infection it is. There are no visible signs of infection, but the beer is definitely sour. I'm meticulous with sanitizing and cleaning, so I'm not sure what to think. Here's the low down...

A few months ago I brewed an El Dorado & 2-Row SMaSH. When I kegged that beer, it smelled as I expected it to, so I used the yeast cake for an Imperial IPA I made the same day I kegged. I didn't realize that the El Dorado was infected until I went to drink it a week after kegging and it didn't smell or taste like it had when I kegged it. Going into the keg it was very rindy, lemony, almost like a lemon cleaner. It's a hop I had had before in a commercial beer and I recognized it the second I smelled it. After a week in the keg it was more tropical fruity... mango, pineapple, etc. and it smelled NOTHING like it had when I kegged it. I don't know for sure if it's infected because what I taste kind of matches the description on HopUnion.com. It's certainly drinkable, but not what I expected.

My Imperial IPA, using the same yeast cake, is undeniably infected. No visible signs of infection (still... after about 8 weeks), but it smells and tastes sour. I used about 12oz of leaf hops in the boil and there is almost no hop aroma or flavor.

Three weeks ago I brewed an Rye Pale Ale. It smells sour through the air lock. I've never brewed a Rye beer before so I'm not sure if what I'm smelling is Rye or if it's an infection, but I'm afraid to use any of my siphoning equipment on it if it's infected because I don't want to have to replace it... and I don't want to use my infected siphon from the El Dorado to siphon it because I don't want to infect it if it's not infected.

My process:

After the boil starts, I mix up 2.5 gallons of star san and soak my wort chiller. Once the chiller goes into the pot to chill the wort, I use my funnel to dump star san into my carboy, pop the bung in, and plug the whole with my finger while I shake it to sanitize the inside of the carboy. I shake it a minimum of two times, with about 10 shakes each time. I'll let the star san sit in the carboy for about 5-10 minutes. I then dump the star san out into my bucket and cover the funnel, my air lock, bung, and a fine mesh strainer. Once the wort is cool, I'll remove the funnel and strainer from my bucket, put the funnel into the carboy and pour the wort out of my pot through my ball valve and into my strainer to catch all of the hop residue and aerate my wort. Once the beer is in the carboy, I add yeast, pop the bung into the carboy, sanitize my hand, and plug the whole of the bung while I shake the carboy (this is one thing I plan to change for the future, but I've made about 8 or so batches using this method with no issues). Once I'm done shaking for 3-5 minutes, I pop the airlock on and cover the carboy with a towel until fermentation is done.

Two questions...

What type of infection tastes sour but doesn't show any visible signs of infection? This isn't he first time I've had an infection like this, but it's the first time I suspect it to be persistent.

And what do you think is causing my infections? What equipment do I need to replace/what processes do I need to change?

Thanks, as always, for your awesome advice and help!

 

[Braufessor]

*I put my chiller in the boiling wort 10-15 minutes before flameout to sanitize
* Are you sanitizing the strainer?
*Definitely refrain from using your hand to cover the opening of the fermenter while shaking.

That said, I find the main points of infection are perhaps further downstream in your process:
*Starsan is good for sanitizing, what are you cleaning with? PBW soak for removing debris? Can't sanitize anything that isn't clean first.
*Is your fermenter CLEAN before you sanitize? Are you taking your kegs apart and cleaning thoroughly before sanitizing? Taking off posts, popplts, pressure relief valve comes out of lid, tap lines, faucets taken apart and cleaned,etc?
*How are you transferring? tubing, auto siphon, spigots????? These are notorious places for harboring nasties. Take spigots completely apart if you have them.... they pull apart into multiple pieces. Take auto siphon apart. replace tubing.
*Are you opening fermenter to try to take multiple gravity readings or anything like that??

Those are some things that occur to me off the top of my head - maybe one of them will stand out as a possibility.

 

[TheMattTrain]

Thanks for the reply, Braufessor.

I've thought about boiling my chiller, but I chill in my utility sink inside and boil outside. The kettle is heavy and cumbersome enough without lines dragging behind me from the chiller. I do sanitize my strainer and I agree that I should stop using my finger to cover the hole in the bung when I shake. What do you use to cover the top of the carboy to aerate?

All of my carboys and kegs are soaked in oxyclean free for a few days, then I rinse thoroughly before using them. All the small parts of my kegs are washed with soap and water.

I haven't taken my faucets apart, but I don't think I'm getting infections from there. I'm certainly overdue for a cleaning there, though.

I use an auto siphon to transfer. I take it completely apart and wash with soap and water every time I use it. I sanitize everything that touches my beer after the boil. I don't have spigots on anything other than the ball valve on my kettle.

I only check gravity after 2-3 weeks of fermentation, usually when I'm ready to keg the beer. If it's not ready, I'll let it sit. If it is ready, I keg it and carb it.

I'm wondering if I may have had an infection at some point and now my bungs/airlocks are infected. I'm probably going to replace those just to be safe. I'm wondering if it's worth just replacing all of my plastic... siphon, tubing, etc. I did that about 6 months ago or so, but maybe it's time again.

 

[fuelish]

What do you use to cover the top of the carboy to aerate?

A clean/sanitized solid bung, if that's how you decide to aerate

 

[Braufessor]

What do you use to cover the top of the carboy to aerate?

I haven't taken my faucets apart, but I don't think I'm getting infections from there. I'm certainly overdue for a cleaning there, though.

I use an auto siphon to transfer. I take it completely apart and wash with soap and water every time I use it. I sanitize everything that touches my beer after the boil. I don't have spigots on anything other than the ball valve on my kettle.

I only check gravity after 2-3 weeks of fermentation, usually when I'm ready to keg the beer. If it's not ready, I'll let it sit. If it is ready, I keg it and carb it.

I'm wondering if I may have had an infection at some point and now my bungs/airlocks are infected. I'm probably going to replace those just to be safe. I'm wondering if it's worth just replacing all of my plastic... siphon, tubing, etc. I did that about 6 months ago or so, but maybe it's time again.

I use SS brew buckets or plastic bottling buckets for fermenters...... not a carboy fan. I use an O2 canister with SS airstone and filter for oxygen.

Everything you describe sounds pretty good.

*Personally, I don't use soap for cleaning anything - just PBW..... although, I don't really think that has anything to do with your issue.

*You absolutely can get infection/problems in tap setups, faucets and lines. I would certainly clean the faucets and maybe replace the lines (especially if you are replacing other plastic as well).

*I would consider replacing plastic if you can't nail down another source of the problem. If you did pick up an infection at one point and then it ran through your other equipment.... it could take hold in some of your plastic stuff. Although, you should not need to be replacing plastic stuff every 6 months if you are keeping things really clean and sanitized on a regular basis.

 

[TheMattTrain]

Thanks folks. I think I've identified a few things I'm going to change for future brews.

Do you think I would need to replace the plastic funnel that I use to transfer wort into my glass carboys? I'm working on a list of all my plastic stuff to replace.

So far I've got...
Stoppers
Airlocks
Siphon
Siphon hose
Beer hose
o-rings for kegs
Gas disconnects
liquid disconnects

Should I get new o-rings for my faucets too?

 

[jessej122]

Had a similar sour problem take you faucet apart that was my problem

 

[TheMattTrain]

Had a similar sour problem take you faucet apart that was my problem

The only reason I don't think it's my faucet is because I have a beer in primary currently that's sour and it hasn't touched a keg, beer line, or faucet yet. It's just been sitting. Since moving to the carboy it's only touched the bung.

I'm finding an o-ring kit for my faucets, though. I plan to replace the o-rings and soak the metal parts in oxyclean and scrub them good with a bottle brush.

 

[TheMattTrain]

Sorry to revive an old thread here, but my problem persists. I hadn't brewed in about 4 months because I was rebuilding my bar. Now that I'm done, I decided to brew last weekend.

I made a batch of Mosaic IPA using only Mosaic Hops and mostly MO malt with some vienna and flaked barley. I fermented with Wyeast 1056 American Ale.

Since my last brew, I had purchased all new plastic everything. The only issue here is that only a few things that are plastic/rubber have touched my beer thus far in the process and I'm 90% sure it's infected in primary after just a week. It smells very sour through the airlock. I can't see the beer well through the side of the carboy because it's covered in krausen residue, but from what i can see, there's still a layer of krausen about half an inch high.

I kept detailed notes on this brew, more than I usually do, so here is my brew day. Hopefully someone can help me narrow this whole infection thing down.

The day before brew day, I scrubbed all of my kettles, mash tun, spoon, brand new bung, brand new airlock, and the brand new carboy that I intended to ferment in with Oxyclean Free. I rinsed well and let sit overnight. In the morning, I was set to start heating my water in a 5 gallon kettle but found a bug at the bottom. I cleaned the kettle again with oxyclean. When I filled the kettle with water, I noticed a weird sulfery smell. We have well water and hadn't replaced the house filter in a while, so I replaced the filter, cleaned the kettle again, and then filled with water. The water smelled fine, and tasted great.

Once the water was heated up, I poured some into my mash tun (10 gallon gatorade cooler), added some grain that was milled the day before and stored in a vacuum sealed bag, more water, more grain, plenty of stirring, until both were combined well with no grain balls. I hit my target temp dead on and sealed the lid. Mashed for an hour, vorlauf and drained to my 10 gallon brew kettle. Mashed out for 10 mins using the same process with 170 degree water, repeated the vorlauf and drain to kettle. I collected about 6 gallons of wort and set it on my burner to boil.

During the brew I took a sample and measured the gravity way too high for what I expected so I added 1 gallon of water to increase volume (I was around 5 gallons but usually ferment a 5.5 gallon batch) and reduce the gravity with about 15 minutes left in the boil. It took another 5 minutes or so for the brew to get back to boiling. Once it was there, It boiled for another 10 minutes, I added my flameout hops, and moved the kettle into my basement's utility sink to cool.

I cool with a copper coil that I spent about 10 minutes the night before cleaning with Oxyclean Free. It had been sitting in Star San for about 30 minutes prior to going into my kettle. I used the immersion chiller to stir the wort to cool faster. Once the wort was cooled to 70 degrees, I pulled the kettle out of the sink, sat it on my washer, and setup the sanitized carboy, funnel, and strainer. I opened my valve and it shot out about a teaspoon of hop gunk. No liquid.

I called my wife to the basement to hold the funnel and strainer in place while I dumped my beer out the side of the kettle into the carboy.

Once the wort was in the carboy, I pulled two smack packs of Wyeast 1056 out of the StarSan where I had them sitting for about 15 minutes, and cut them open with the scissors I was storing in a glass of starsan. I poured the yeast into the carboy, closed it up with a non-drilled bung that I soaked in Starsan for about 20 minutes at that point and shook for 3-4 minutes. I removed the bung, replaced it with a sanitized drilled bung and 3 piece airlock.

I set the carboy in place to ferment wrapped in a t-shirt.

Fermentation started about 6-8 hours after I added the yeast. Smelled great. On day 3, krausen had come out through the airlock. I noticed in the morning before I left for work so I cleaned another brand new airlock, sanitized it for about 5 minutes, removed the old airlock and replaced it with a clean one.

Now, it's day 7, the smell through the airlock smells like the last few batches I've made. Sour.

What. Do. I. Do?

I asked a friend who brews and he asked me if I sanitized the ball valve on the kettle before I drain. I said no and I never have. I figured that would get sanitized throughout the boil. I also removed the valve from the kettle and cleaned it this morning. There was some gunk in there, but is it even possible for something to live in that environment?

HELP! I'm so frustrated and about ready to give up on this hobby. I can't keep throwing money down the drain. Literally.

 

[Calder]

Based on everything you have done, I would say you probably don't have anything to worry about. The smell thru the airlock is no indication of what the beer will turn out like. CO2 can give a sour smell, some yeasts//ingredients give off sulfur (rotten eggs) that is not in the final product.

You have done everything you should have done, and more, to ensure you get a good product. I'd wait until you actually get a sample from the fermenter before you start worrying. And when you do finally take a sample, remember, young beer can have a green apple taste that will fade over time (acetaldehyde, produced by stressed yeast).

Sounds like you had a good healthy ferment should be a fine beer.

Yes boil temps in the pot will sanitize the ball valve.

It is pretty hard to infect a beer. If you get wort temps down quickly, pitch a healthy amount of yeast, that takes off within 24 hours, you could probably get away with just cleaning equipment, and not sanitizing. I am not advocating that people don't sanitize equipment. Once alcohol is present, there is little that can infect beer, and with the exception of acetobacter (vinegar), anything that could affect beer works slowly. Acetobacter requires alcohol and O2 to spoil a beer; you have active fermentation, so will be protected by CO2 in the fermenter.

 

[Gavin C]

Are you boiling the immersion chiller in the wort in the last 1-15 minutes of the boil?

All else seems solid.

Hope this batch is Ok. You must be tearing your hair out with frustration. Best of luck

 

[TheMattTrain]

Thanks guys. I hope it's ok too, but I've smelled this smell before. It's too similar to the other bad batches. Although at least one of the two I've still got in primary (gotta be 4 months at this point so it's probably terrible) doesn't show any signs of infection outside of a small amount of bubbles on the surface of the wort. I'm not sure what it could be. I have never had that green apple smell in the first 12 batches I'd brewed. Four of my last 5 now have been off.

I did some googling and came across a thread from another forum that referenced this article about dirty ball valves... so this will be my next step. http://brulosophy.com/2014/11/13/problem-identification-or-helping-a-buddy-stay-in-the-hobby/

I can't think of any other issue that could possibly be causing sourness. With this most recent brew, the only thing that touched the wort after the boil that wasn't brand new was my immersion chiller and strainer and both spent a minimum of 15 minutes submerged in starsan. I will try to figure out how I can boil it next time, but I don't think it's the issue. I think that ball valve needs to be disassembled and cleaned or replaced.

 

[Gavin C]

How long do you usually leave the beer in the fermenter before you package it. Your not leaving them there for 4 months are you?

4 months in a bucket is a recipe for infection.

 

[TheMattTrain]

How long do you usually leave the beer in the fermenter before you package it. Your not leaving them there for 4 months are you?

4 months in a bucket is a recipe for infection.

I exclusively ferment in glass carboys and normally it's just 3 weeks. I just didn't have the heart to dump 10 gallons of beer even if it was bad... so it's been sitting since I didn't need the carboys for a while.

 

[Gavin C]

I exclusively ferment in glass carboys and normally it's just 3 weeks. I just didn't have the heart to dump 10 gallons of beer even if it was bad... so it's been sitting since I didn't need the carboys for a while.

No worries. Just wanted to check something like that hadn't been overlooked.

I'm at loos to explain your dilemma I'm afraid. I'm no help.

 

[TheMattTrain]

So the plan at this point is to boil all of the hardware that connects to the ball valve for 30 minutes to be super safe, scrub it real good, then rinse clean. I have a friend who I gave a secondary ball valve to months ago and he says he hasn't used it and has no need for it, so I'm gonna get that back from him to avoid any possibility of the plastic parts inside the valve causing further problems.

I'll report back when I figure out if this was the issue.

 

[brick_haus]

Based on what I've read on this thread, you can't possibly have an infection. No visible signs and very good sanitation practices. Might be something else? Besides equipment, what other common denominators are there? Water? Any chance this sour taste/smell could be described another way? Is it at all astringent?
Sanitation is not that difficult!! Keep an open mind while troubleshooting.

 

[TheMattTrain]

Based on what I've read on this thread, you can't possibly have an infection. No visible signs and very good sanitation practices. Might be something else? Besides equipment, what other common denominators are there? Water? Any chance this sour taste/smell could be described another way? Is it at all astringent?
Sanitation is not that difficult!! Keep an open mind while troubleshooting.

Outside of equipment, the only other common denominator would be the water and the location that the beers are fermenting. I don't have temp control so the beers are fermenting in my basement. The latest batch held around 68-70 *F using Wyeast 1056. Other infected batches were fermented in the same place over the winter and they held at lower temps, usually 65 or so using US-05.

I have successfully brewed about a dozen batches using my well water and fermenting at room temp in my basement. While I can't discount the water 100%, I can't think of why it would affect the beer in this way. I have brewed a very similar beer to this one successfully (only difference is a small adjustment to the grain bill).

The last thing I can think of is the ball valve. I'm going to bite the bullet and buy a new one and make sure I take care of it meticulously assuming my next batch isn't infected.

 

[TheMattTrain]

I'm going to revive my old thread here because I believe I'm still having the same problem.

I brewed a week ago tomorrow. At about 4 days into a healthy fermentation, my beer went from hoppy and delicious smelling to cidery and gross smelling through the airlock.

I replaced my ball valve (the old one was gunked up and I didn't feel comfortable cleaning it well enough). I did keep some of the old hardware but I cleaned it in extremely hot oxyclean and boiled it afterwords. I can't think of another thing that could possibly be causing this cidery/sour aroma and taste.

FWIW, I also decided to boil my immersion chiller in the wort this time. I set it in there with about 12 minutes left in my boil.

Here are links to my recipes to see if anyone can come up with anything from that perspective that would cause the issue.

https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/house-ipa-ii-d134ea
https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/rye-pale-ale-157
https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/yippee-ipa-mother-****er
https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/el-dorado-smash-3

So at this point, the common denominators are the following:
Water (I use my well water)
Mash Tun
Boil Kettle (not ball valve)
Immersion Chiller
Environment (I use the utility sink in my basement to chill the wort and I boil in the driveway. I also ferment in my basement and always have.)
Yeast: I've been using US-05 and Wyeast 1056 for all of these batches.

After doing some reading, the aroma I'm getting is cidery and the only off flavor I can come up with is Acetaldehyde. That said, my beers are all fermenting at 68-70 F which is on the high end of the yeast temps, but it's not out of bounds. Where else could this be coming from if acetaldehyde is the problem?

 

[brewmeister69]

After reading through your thread I suspect that you may have some wild yeast in the area that you are brewing..Do you have any orchards or vineyards close by to where you are brewing? wild yeast can float in the air and cling to dust particles etc. Are you chilling your wort outside?

I had a friend who was brewing only a few hundred meters from a vineyard and he was forever getting infections.. We cant say for certain that this was the root cause but when he decided to make a brew at his partners house he was infection free.

Eventually he invested in an extractor fan and brewed indoors and it seems to
have stopped his infections..

 

[nikseven]

Aw man, I can totally relate to this thread and I feel your pain. I actually logged in to start my own thread of infection woe, but I feel like this one is close enough for me to piggyback on (hopefully not hijack!) with my own questions.

SO, like the original poster I am currently having a chronic infection issue in primary. I'm a relatively new brewer (2 years this Christmas), but I brew quite frequently. I had brewed about 65 successful 5 or 6 gallon batches with absolutely no problems, and then out of nowhere (without changing any aspect of my brewing or sanitization process) I wound up with 3 infected batches in a row. The first one was a Saison that developed a really nasty pedio pellicle in primary (using Yeast Bay Wallonian Farmhouse strain, which they describe as a "clean yeast" so I'm assuming no bugs came from there), but still tasted ok so I saw that one through and bottled anyway, and it actually wound up ok. The next beer I brewed was a pale ale that didn't have any visible signs of infection but definitely went sour and vinegar-y in primary and wound up being my first pour-out ever. Followed by another pale ale that didn't get quite that gross, I did bottle it, but I certainly don't like drinking it and it definitely has at least of a hint of the same sourness of the previous pour-out pale ale.

My infections are happening in primary after about 7-10 days. I do full volume boils indoors on a stove top (across two burners) in a 40qt aluminum kettle with no valves or anything. I use a copper immersion chiller and soak it in star san for 15 minutes before chilling the wort (the immersion chiller goes straight into the brew kettle at the end of the boil). I use large plastic fermenter bucket thingies (I'm guessing they are about 10 gallons). I clean the fermenters immediately after I transfer out of them with sparkle-brite (the pink stuff) and sanitize with star san, and then sanitize them again with star san on brew days (I do the same with carboys, they get sanitized twice). When my wort is chilled to pitching temp, I transfer to the fermenter and aerate by dumping the entire contents of my kettle into the fermenter (trub and all) and back and forth between the kettle and fermenter a couple times. This is how I've done it for the last couple years with no issue. Then I pitch my yeast and close up the buckets until primary fermentation is completed (I do then transfer to secondary, which I know is a debated topic, but my infections are happening before that point).

So the only things that my beer has touched before getting infected is the brew kettle that has had boiling liquid in it for an hour or more, the immersion chiller which has been soaked in star san, and the fermenter which has been sanitized with star san. Oh, and I take a gravity reading with a hydrometer that has also been soaked in star san for a good 20 minutes. No valves, no taps, no siphons at this point in the process. And the problem seems to have materialized out of nowhere and it won't go away! I don't get it!!

I will say that the first two infections occurred in the same fermenter which I have now thrown out and replaced in frustration, and the third infection occurred in a different fermenter. I have been extra meticulous in cleaning and sanitizing since the first infection really freaked me out, but it seems to be of no avail.

If anyone can offer any advice on how this infection may have entered my system in the first place, and how I can stop it dead, I would really appreciate it. I am getting really frustrated, and I really want to be able to be proud of my beer again. Thanks! And good luck to the original poster, I feel you!!

 

[Braufessor]

*Yeast...... are you using new pitch of yeast or harvesting? Starter? If you are harvesting or using a starter and your process is not sound, that is a prime introduction of bacteria.

*Yeast Pack..... I sanitize the pack/vial of yeast by putting in starsan, I sanitize the scissors I use to open it... everything.

*Ideally you want a good pitch of active yeast so there is no lag time in fermentation. Your wort is NEVER sterile. There ARE bacteria in your fermenter. You simply want to introduce enough yeast that the bacteria can never really get a chance to get going and the yeast outcompete them. So, if you are pitching too little yeast, old yeast, etc.... that can be a problem.

*starsan process? I know a lot of people talk about spraying the surface with starsan..... but, I am a "dunker". I completely submerge all my stuff in starsan for way more than just a couple minutes. Overkill? Maybe..... but, I am in the better safe than sorry camp.

*Hydrometer reading..... It does not matter if your hydrometer is sanitized because you should be removing your sample and not returning it. Don't put your hydrometer in your cooled wort or your fermenter. Don't return a sample to your cooled wort or fermenter.

*Put lid on kettle while chilling to keep anything from getting in.

*Grain dust? Grain has lots of nasty stuff on it. Excess grain dust from grinding grain in brew area could be a possible problem.

 

[nikseven]

Awesome, thanks for the reply, Braufessor.

*Yeast...... are you using new pitch of yeast or harvesting? Starter? If you are harvesting or using a starter and your process is not sound, that is a prime introduction of bacteria.

I'm using a new pitch of yeast, usually with no starter (in the case of these infected batches, there was definitely no starter).

*Yeast Pack..... I sanitize the pack/vial of yeast by putting in starsan, I sanitize the scissors I use to open it... everything.

Yeah, I sanitize the yeast pack and scissors by dunking in star san.

*Ideally you want a good pitch of active yeast so there is no lag time in fermentation. Your wort is NEVER sterile. There ARE bacteria in your fermenter. You simply want to introduce enough yeast that the bacteria can never really get a chance to get going and the yeast outcompete them. So, if you are pitching too little yeast, old yeast, etc.... that can be a problem.

Hmmm, I could potentially be underpitching. I rarely use a starter (as noted above) unless it's a particularly high gravity beer. Fermentation is usually quite visible within 24 hours though.

*starsan process? I know a lot of people talk about spraying the surface with starsan..... but, I am a "dunker". I completely submerge all my stuff in starsan for way more than just a couple minutes. Overkill? Maybe..... but, I am in the better safe than sorry camp.

I am a dunker as well, and fermenters get a good shake n coat with 2.5 gallons of star san solution and are left to sit wet with star san for a good 20 minutes or so before being used.

*Hydrometer reading..... It does not matter if your hydrometer is sanitized because you should be removing your sample and not returning it. Don't put your hydrometer in your cooled wort or your fermenter. Don't return a sample to your cooled wort or fermenter.

Again, hmmm. I do take my reading by floating my hydrometer in the kettle after it is chilled.The hydrometer does get dunked and soaked in star san for about 20 minutes before using though. I've always considered that this was a safer way for me to take a reading than introducing another variable by dunking a thief or whatever to grab a sample (again, no valves on my kettle, so I'd have to stick something in there to grab a sample).

*Put lid on kettle while chilling to keep anything from getting in.

Maybe this is the issue? I'll have to think on how I can fix this though, since the vertical part of the copper tubing on my wort chiller extends above the lid of my kettle, so I'm not sure how I'd be able to put a lid on it.

*Grain dust? Grain has lots of nasty stuff on it. Excess grain dust from grinding grain in brew area could be a possible problem.

I do mill relatively near to my brew area, I suppose. I would have thought that the dust would have fully settled by the time I reached the end of my brew day, but maybe not.


Interesting food for thought, thanks again for the reply.

 

[TheMattTrain]

After reading through your thread I suspect that you may have some wild yeast in the area that you are brewing..Do you have any orchards or vineyards close by to where you are brewing? wild yeast can float in the air and cling to dust particles etc. Are you chilling your wort outside?

I had a friend who was brewing only a few hundred meters from a vineyard and he was forever getting infections.. We cant say for certain that this was the root cause but when he decided to make a brew at his partners house he was infection free.

Eventually he invested in an extractor fan and brewed indoors and it seems to
have stopped his infections..

I do brew outside but I don't know of a vineyard or orchard that's too close by. We live near some farms but they mostly grow corn and soy beans.

I'm at the point where I'm ready to quit making beer. I've got my second child due in January and I'm not willing to throw 5 gallons of beer down the drain every month (truth be told... I haven't dumped any of the bad batches yet. Three are kegged and two are still in fermentation.)

Might be worth doing a small batch inside on the stove again? My other thought is to use some spring water. Is it possible to get cidery beer from my well water? I've also thought about the yeast being the issue... I use US-05 and Wyeast 1056 very often. I understand them to be the same strain. Is it possible I'm getting weird flavors and aroma from the yeast? I'm fermenting at 68-70

 

[TheMattTrain]

Aw man, I can totally relate to this thread and I feel your pain. I actually logged in to start my own thread of infection woe, but I feel like this one is close enough for me to piggyback on (hopefully not hijack!) with my own questions.

SO, like the original poster I am currently having a chronic infection issue in primary. I'm a relatively new brewer (2 years this Christmas), but I brew quite frequently. I had brewed about 65 successful 5 or 6 gallon batches with absolutely no problems, and then out of nowhere (without changing any aspect of my brewing or sanitization process) I wound up with 3 infected batches in a row. The first one was a Saison that developed a really nasty pedio pellicle in primary (using Yeast Bay Wallonian Farmhouse strain, which they describe as a "clean yeast" so I'm assuming no bugs came from there), but still tasted ok so I saw that one through and bottled anyway, and it actually wound up ok. The next beer I brewed was a pale ale that didn't have any visible signs of infection but definitely went sour and vinegar-y in primary and wound up being my first pour-out ever. Followed by another pale ale that didn't get quite that gross, I did bottle it, but I certainly don't like drinking it and it definitely has at least of a hint of the same sourness of the previous pour-out pale ale.

My infections are happening in primary after about 7-10 days. I do full volume boils indoors on a stove top (across two burners) in a 40qt aluminum kettle with no valves or anything. I use a copper immersion chiller and soak it in star san for 15 minutes before chilling the wort (the immersion chiller goes straight into the brew kettle at the end of the boil). I use large plastic fermenter bucket thingies (I'm guessing they are about 10 gallons). I clean the fermenters immediately after I transfer out of them with sparkle-brite (the pink stuff) and sanitize with star san, and then sanitize them again with star san on brew days (I do the same with carboys, they get sanitized twice). When my wort is chilled to pitching temp, I transfer to the fermenter and aerate by dumping the entire contents of my kettle into the fermenter (trub and all) and back and forth between the kettle and fermenter a couple times. This is how I've done it for the last couple years with no issue. Then I pitch my yeast and close up the buckets until primary fermentation is completed (I do then transfer to secondary, which I know is a debated topic, but my infections are happening before that point).

So the only things that my beer has touched before getting infected is the brew kettle that has had boiling liquid in it for an hour or more, the immersion chiller which has been soaked in star san, and the fermenter which has been sanitized with star san. Oh, and I take a gravity reading with a hydrometer that has also been soaked in star san for a good 20 minutes. No valves, no taps, no siphons at this point in the process. And the problem seems to have materialized out of nowhere and it won't go away! I don't get it!!

I will say that the first two infections occurred in the same fermenter which I have now thrown out and replaced in frustration, and the third infection occurred in a different fermenter. I have been extra meticulous in cleaning and sanitizing since the first infection really freaked me out, but it seems to be of no avail.

If anyone can offer any advice on how this infection may have entered my system in the first place, and how I can stop it dead, I would really appreciate it. I am getting really frustrated, and I really want to be able to be proud of my beer again. Thanks! And good luck to the original poster, I feel you!!

That sucks man. Sorry to hear you're having issues too. The weird thing about my "infection" problem is that there has never once been a visible sign of infection. I have one beer kegged from almost a year ago now that continues to pressurize inside the keg. I'm not sure if the CO2 is just coming out of the beer and pressurizing the headspace or if there is still active infection that's chewing through any remaining sugars in the beer. I'm a little scared to open the keg.

Also, in case this helps anyone help me out... here is a picture of a beer I made somewhere between 4-6 months ago (I don't keep great records of dates). I believe it was my Rye Pale Ale. Smells cidery and weird... but no visible sign of infection. Thoughts?

 

[Braufessor]

That sucks man. Sorry to hear you're having issues too. The weird thing about my "infection" problem is that there has never once been a visible sign of infection. I have one beer kegged from almost a year ago now that continues to pressurize inside the keg. I'm not sure if the CO2 is just coming out of the beer and pressurizing the headspace or if there is still active infection that's chewing through any remaining sugars in the beer. I'm a little scared to open the keg.

Also, in case this helps anyone help me out... here is a picture of a beer I made somewhere between 4-6 months ago (I don't keep great records of dates). I believe it was my Rye Pale Ale. Smells cidery and weird... but no visible sign of infection. Thoughts?

View attachment 320039

Taste it. No real way to know for sure unless you give it a try. I agree, does not "look" bad. So, I doubt infection. But it is old - and Rye Pale Ale is probably not a beer you "age." Give it a sample and be ready to keg/bottle(reyeast) if it is good.

 

[brewmeister69]

I do brew outside but I don't know of a vineyard or orchard that's too close by. We live near some farms but they mostly grow corn and soy beans.

I'm at the point where I'm ready to quit making beer. I've got my second child due in January and I'm not willing to throw 5 gallons of beer down the drain every month (truth be told... I haven't dumped any of the bad batches yet. Three are kegged and two are still in fermentation.)

Might be worth doing a small batch inside on the stove again? My other thought is to use some spring water. Is it possible to get cidery beer from my well water? I've also thought about the yeast being the issue... I use US-05 and Wyeast 1056 very often. I understand them to be the same strain. Is it possible I'm getting weird flavors and aroma from the yeast? I'm fermenting at 68-70

US 05 has been known to give off flavours when fermented at higher temps
24-26 degree c range.. I liken it to a sort of nail polish taste/smell
( acetone )

I think you should try and make a small batch indoors and see how that goes. Farms can be a breeding ground for wild yeasts also.. I really do think that could be the culprit for your off flavours since you said you are brewing outside.. If your small indoor batch turns out OK then you will have your answer for certain.

You said you are kegging, a side note for people who bottle condition - if your temps get too hot when in the bottle it can also produce off flavours as the yeast is still working away at the priming sugars. I had an IPA that tasted lovely after a few weeks and shared with a few friends who raved about it.. we then had a few days when the temps got up to 30c plus outside. I cracked open a bottle and bang!!! those horrible acetone notes came flooding through..40 bottles of beer down the drain

It would be a great shame if you quit brewing mate, I honestly feel your pain. Don't let this issue beat you, when you get it right the rewards will be all the more sweeter..

Let me know how your indoor brew goes if you go down that route.

 

[nikseven]

I had to pour out another 6 gallon batch yesterday. 10 days in primary and it had already gone acrid and gross. This was a recipe I've brewed successfully 8 times before this. I'm gonna throw out the fermenter (the second one I've tossed since this infection hell started).

This is so frustrating!!! How do I destroy thee, evil bacteria?!

 

[brewmeister69]

I had to pour out another 6 gallon batch yesterday. 10 days in primary and it had already gone acrid and gross. This was a recipe I've brewed successfully 8 times before this. I'm gonna throw out the fermenter (the second one I've tossed since this infection hell started).

This is so frustrating!!! How do I destroy thee, evil bacteria?!

Use some higher than normal strength household bleach.. let it soak for a few hours then rinse and rinse till the bleach scent is gone.. Worked for me.

 

[TheMattTrain]

US 05 has been known to give off flavours when fermented at higher temps
24-26 degree c range.. I liken it to a sort of nail polish taste/smell
( acetone )

I think you should try and make a small batch indoors and see how that goes. Farms can be a breeding ground for wild yeasts also.. I really do think that could be the culprit for your off flavours since you said you are brewing outside.. If your small indoor batch turns out OK then you will have your answer for certain.

You said you are kegging, a side note for people who bottle condition - if your temps get too hot when in the bottle it can also produce off flavours as the yeast is still working away at the priming sugars. I had an IPA that tasted lovely after a few weeks and shared with a few friends who raved about it.. we then had a few days when the temps got up to 30c plus outside. I cracked open a bottle and bang!!! those horrible acetone notes came flooding through..40 bottles of beer down the drain

It would be a great shame if you quit brewing mate, I honestly feel your pain. Don't let this issue beat you, when you get it right the rewards will be all the more sweeter..

Let me know how your indoor brew goes if you go down that route.

Thanks for the input here. I've got two bad batches kegged so I think I'm going to carb them up and try to get some opinions on off flavors from my buddy's home brew club. If they can provide some input on flavors I should be able to do some research and figure out where I might be going wrong.

The only reason I'm not leaning towards wild yeast is because I would think that that would cause some sort of pellical wouldn't it? I haven't ever had any visible signs of infection in any of these batches that smell and taste gross. I even did some reading just now on the higher fermented 1056 and US-05 and found that some people find some weird flavors there. Acetone wouldn't describe what I smell... more sulfery, but not egg-like... more cidery/sour. But I might have a bad nose. I'm trying to get some second opinions.

 

[uhcougar]

Are you getting fruit flies in through your airlock? I use vodka so it kills them. They have bacteria on them.

 

[TheMattTrain]

Nope. Definitely no fruit flies.

US 05 has been known to give off flavours when fermented at higher temps
24-26 degree c range.. I liken it to a sort of nail polish taste/smell
( acetone )

I think you should try and make a small batch indoors and see how that goes. Farms can be a breeding ground for wild yeasts also.. I really do think that could be the culprit for your off flavours since you said you are brewing outside.. If your small indoor batch turns out OK then you will have your answer for certain.

You said you are kegging, a side note for people who bottle condition - if your temps get too hot when in the bottle it can also produce off flavours as the yeast is still working away at the priming sugars. I had an IPA that tasted lovely after a few weeks and shared with a few friends who raved about it.. we then had a few days when the temps got up to 30c plus outside. I cracked open a bottle and bang!!! those horrible acetone notes came flooding through..40 bottles of beer down the drain

It would be a great shame if you quit brewing mate, I honestly feel your pain. Don't let this issue beat you, when you get it right the rewards will be all the more sweeter..

Let me know how your indoor brew goes if you go down that route.

What do you know about brewing water. A buddy of mine suggested that my water may be too soft, low ph. I'm not sure if that would cause these off flavors I'm getting... but here's my current hypothesis: PH is off in brew water which causes poor environment for yeast. Yeast stresses out causing acetaldehyde. Plausible?

 

[brewmeister69]

Nope. Definitely no fruit flies.




What do you know about brewing water. A buddy of mine suggested that my water may be too soft, low ph. I'm not sure if that would cause these off flavors I'm getting... but here's my current hypothesis: PH is off in brew water which causes poor environment for yeast. Yeast stresses out causing acetaldehyde. Plausible?

Sorry for late reply .. Yes I'd say your hypothesis is very plausible indeed.. I try to keep my PH between 5.2 5.5 during the mash.. When your PH is way off it can add to astringency issues in your wort which in-turn leads to off flavors due to excessive tannins..

 

[Dcpcooks]

Did I read your on well water? Have you tried using bottled water? I make sour beers and they take longer to produce the flavors/ smells your describing (which are not really sour flavors) water tables are at low levels in most of the county and your water make up may have changed somewhat recently. Do you filter your water? Your sanitation process doesn't sound bad. You've replaced your gear but have you had your water tested? I'd brew a smash batch with bottled water, ferment in a new carboy and see if you still get the smells your talking about. Brew something simple with modest hops and gravity and turn it in three weeks, keeping it on the cake the entire time. Then you could send a sample to ward labs and see if you've got something in your water supply that could be a cause. Just a thought but I hope it helps!

 

[Dcpcooks]

A sample of your water not the beer.