Infection or Overcarbed or Other?

[Plainer]

I am fairly new to homebrew but home the experts around here can help me with a bit of a gusher/carbonation problem. Do I have contamination? Or a carbonation problem? Or just a bottle conditioning problem? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have searched and read some threads, so hopefully I provide all the needed info, sorry for the length.

In total my homebrew experience stacks up to about 9 batches, all BIAB all grain using the same equipment. I have had about 3 batches in which there is some type of carbonation issue or contamination. I will use my recent 2 batches to provide info here.

1. Most recent batch, and Arrogant Bastard clone is a foaming gusher, not too wild but drains about 1/3rd of the beer. See a video here http://youtu.be/aOTjFkvV308 . The taste as far as I can tell is not affected. It’s a big beer with a bitter hoppy finish so if there was a small off flavour then it’s well masked. (some details below). I tried one bottle after 2 weeks of conditioning, and no foam over occurred.

2. My batch before this was an IPA (some details below), where when I opened the beer, the foam would only come up to the top of the bottle and stop, but the CO2 being released would stir up all of the yeast in the bottle, affecting the taste. I took this to be over carbonation. No off flavours in this beer, but with the yeast mixed in, it was not the best IPA I have had. The later bottles were much worse than the first bottles.

First, my cold side practice and equipment.
I have a copper tubing chiller that I put into the boil about 10 minutes before the end of boil, I then dump the chilled wart into the fermenter. My fermenters are plastic containers with a small lid (water jugs). I clean them with oxi clean and sanitize with start san. (as far as I can inspect, there is no scratches or marks in them) For bottling I have a designated bottling bucket with a plastic valve and bottling wand. After each bottling session take the valve apart and the wand, wash with soap and water, then right before the next session I sanitize with star san. I transfer using an auto siphon, which I clean with soap, high pressure water out of the hose and then use star san immediately before use. Bottles I rinse well when I pour each beer then wash them in the dishwasher. Before bottling I fully inspect them for cleanliness and submerge/fill with star san. In my most recent batch, the bottles were brand new so I just rinsed them in star san.

Bottle condition priming.
I prime with table sugar using beer smith to 2.5 vols. For m bottling volume (usually about 13 to 14 liters) I used 80 grams in each of these batches, give or take a couple grams for fine adjustment at bottling. I boil it in a small amount of water and pour into the bottling bucket, stirring about 3 to 4 different times during bottling to keep it mixed. For what it’s worth, I do not cold crash my beer, all is done at room temps. I then let it bottle condition for 4 weeks at room temp.


Fermentation details for reference
1. AB clone - no dry hopping
Yeast – WLP007, pitched a 1L starter, decanted
Fermented at 65 deg for a week, then let it ramp up to 68 for a couple weeks. No secondary. Was in Primary for 3 weeks. (my temp control is a water bath with ice)
OG: 1.070
FG 1.016 (should have been lower, but got stagnant here for days so I thought it was finished as 3 weeks had passed too).
Note on bottle conditioning, the house got a bit warm during conditioning, about 75 deg.

2. IPA – Dry hopped for 5 days, just threw pellets in primary. No secondary.
Yest, WLP007 pitched 1L starter, decanted
Fermented 65 deg (about) for first day, got as high as 69 then mostly stayed at 68 for 3 weeks. (my temp control is a water bath with ice)
OG: 1.064
FG: 1.013

My concern is of course is infection. Brett? But maybe the beers are not fully attenuated and a bit over primed when I bottle and the combination is making a super foamer. (one can hope) All my beers are pretty foamy and have lots of head. I am not the best taster, but I don’t detect any major distinct off flavours or sourness in these beers. I bottled a batch 2 days ago that I used ½ the priming sugar and fermented for 4 weeks in the primary, so I will see how that turns out. It’s a English Bitter, so the low carbonation fits the style too.

Any help is appreciated, thanks in advance.

 

[Plainer]

Bueller?

Did I write too much?

 

[bbohanon]

I will chime in and say it could be a number of things..I noticed when I was bottle conditioning that the longer the beer stayed in the bottle, the more chance there was of it becoming a gusher even though I used the proper amount of priming sugar..especially with low floccing yeast and IPA's. Those tended to be where I saw the most of my gushers.

I started to ratchet down the amount of priming sugar I used depending on the style and yeast I used until I could (with best guess) hit the sweet spot for the beer I was making carbing wise as all of that I found factors in proper bottle priming. The kits you get usually always contain more priming sugar than is really needed to properly carb the beer in the bottle to be honest.

Also, the beer will soak in more CO2 when its cold than warm so having a bottle go from warm to cold and back to warm may (and has in my experience) cause gushers..I have even had this problem with kegs and foaming lines (equivelent to bottle gushers) when they get cold, then warm up just 10deg. The beer just gets overcarbed as the CO2 is begging to be released from the beer when it warms up. Again, not sure if this is your issue, but another observation of mine I saw when I was bottle conditioning.

You mentioned that you dont cold crash your beer before bottling so you most likely have quite a bit more yeast in suspension to activate with that sugar than you would if you cold crashed it for a week.

Alot of folks with IPAs love and use the low floc yeast for a cloudy IPA and dont cold crash it for that very reason so if you are shooting for that it could just be too much priming sugar with too much yeast and blammo. Gushers.

Sounds like your sanitation process is sound so I doubt its an infection.

You did not mention how long you ferment your beer which could also affect this. I usually ferment for 3 weeks for any beer I make and warm it up to 75 the last week to make dang sure fermentation is done before kegging it.

I switched over to kegging from bottle conditioning about 2 years ago and have not looked back. I am not saying kegging is better than bottle conditioning for all you bottle devotees, but in my case it absolutely was a better option and I don't worry about gushers any more. When I bottle fill, I use a beer gun and the beer is carbed right on the money (plus no bottle dregs in most cases).
The downside to kegging is the initial setup. I am have worked my way up to a 2 tap Danby kegerator, a 4 tap keezer and another freezer I use for a fermentation chamber so yea..the equipment costs can be an issue for some to get to kegging. I know that alot of the frustrations I had with my batches when I was bottle conditioning went away when I started kegging (off or significant taste changes/flavors, carbing probs, etc.)

 

[Hello]

1. Most recent batch, and Arrogant Bastard clone is a foaming gusher, not too wild but drains about 1/3rd of the beer. See a video here http://youtu.be/aOTjFkvV308 . The taste as far as I can tell is not affected. It’s a big beer with a bitter hoppy finish so if there was a small off flavour then it’s well masked. (some details below). I tried one bottle after 2 weeks of conditioning, and no foam over occurred.

I got lost. When did you open up a bottle and it gushed? You say you opened one after 2 weeks of conditioning and it was okay? Was the gusher chilled for at least a full 24 hours?

2. My batch before this was an IPA (some details below), where when I opened the beer, the foam would only come up to the top of the bottle and stop, but the CO2 being released would stir up all of the yeast in the bottle, affecting the taste. I took this to be over carbonation. No off flavours in this beer, but with the yeast mixed in, it was not the best IPA I have had.

Was your bottle chilled? For how long?

The later bottles were much worse than the first bottles.

Worse? like worse gushers or worse taste?

Washing bottles in the dishwasher may not get everything clean. Water can't get right up into the bottle easily. Pouring the beer and rising right away with warm water has actually been pretty effective for me. Maybe do that. But really, I don't see an issue with your bottling process.

Stop stirring your beer while in the bucket. Just a tip.
Once you pour the priming sugar solution in and rack the beer, a gentle swirl of the beer can't hurt, but your constant stirring introduces oxygen to the beer. That is not the issue with gushers though.

So, I don't see an issue in your process, to be honest. You would taste brett, even in an IPA. It seems like you're giving the beers enough time to finish. Maybe that 1.070 AB clone finished slightly high, but a 1L starter may not have been enough. How are you measuring the sugar? You did mention grams, so I assume you use a scale. 2.5 vols at 13 liters and 80 grams of table sugar sounds just right. If anything, a little low. Are you opening your beers cold?

I'm kind of baffled by this. Short of changing out your bucket and such, I am not sure. How do you rack your beer from the boil kettle to the fermenter? does it pass a ball valve? If so, have you taken that off and apart to clean lately?

 

[pdxal]

Amount of yeast in the beer has no effect on carbonation. Amount of sugar for priming or unfermented sugars in beers will. As will infection.
Not all gusher infections cause off flavors.
Your sanitation for the bottles sounds OK as long as you are using the dishwasher on high heat to steam/dry the bottles and get them above boiling temp. Actually, still OK if you aren't since you're hitting them with star san. Bottle caps need to be sanitized too, BTW, since you didn't mention it.
I'll +1 on time for chilling the bottles before opening so that the priming CO2 has completely dissolved.
Not mentioned so far is final gravity. Has the final gravity you measured been the same over 3 days? If not, it might still finish fermenting in the bottle and over carbonate. You can take one of the gushing bottles, open it, and let it sit for several days to off-gas before taking a gravity to see if it is lower gravity than it was than just before adding sugar to prime and bottle. If it is lower it is finishing fermentation in the bottles.

 

[Plainer]

I will chime in and say it could be a number of things..I noticed when I was bottle conditioning that the longer the beer stayed in the bottle, the more chance there was of it becoming a gusher even though I used the proper amount of priming sugar..especially with low floccing yeast and IPA's. Those tended to be where I saw the most of my gushers. I started to ratchet down the amount of priming sugar.

Other than contamination, this is my number one thought. Although WLP007 is high flocculating, I think I need to ferment that last week at warmer temps and dial back the sugar. I also will switch to dextrose, just to see if there is any change. Can’t hurt.

Also, the beer will soak in more CO2 when its cold than warm so having a bottle go from warm to cold and back to warm may (and has in my experience) cause gushers.

Noted. I open them immediacy out of the refrigerator. If I want to let a beer come up in temp a bit, I do it in the glass. (I don’t have that type of patience, and find the bottom of the glass before it warms up a lot)

you most likely have quite a bit more yeast in suspension to activate with that sugar than you would if you cold crashed it for a week. Alot of folks with IPAs love and use the low floc yeast for a cloudy IPA and don’t cold crash it for that very reason so if you are shooting for that it could just be too much priming sugar with too much yeast and blammo. Gushers.

Agreed, I bet I do have a fair amount of yeast in suspension. There is not an excessive amount in the bottom of each bottle, but it’s there. I don’t cold crash, have refrigerated fermentation(but I don’t live in a warm climate), or kegs all for the same reason. No room for a second fridge. I live in an apartment with no garage so these space taking luxuries are beyond me at the moment. I am not trying to create particularly clear or cloudy beer. To be honest I am just following recipes and the best practices I read about to get repeatable good beer for now.

You did not mention how long you ferment your beer which could also affect this. I usually ferment for 3 weeks for any beer I make and warm it up to 75 the last week to make dang sure fermentation is done before kegging it.

Its there buried somewhere. Hahaha. I ferment for 3 weeks in primary. I usually take a gravity reading after 4 days, 2 weeks, and 3 weeks or bottling day. I make sure the last 2 are the same, but this time I don’t have good notes, however I would have let it go more time if they were not the same. As said elsewhere, I think the last week I need to up the temps to make sure its complete at similar temps as bottle conditioning temps to make sure things are finished. Basically, put the fermenter in the same room that I bottle condition in.

I know that alot of the frustrations I had with my batches when I was bottle conditioning went away when I started kegging (off or significant taste changes/flavors, carbing probs, etc.)

I would start kegging, but don’t really have the space and I told myself when I started this hobby to keep it small as I have a pile of other hobbies with their own time and budget suck. I guess for now I have to deal with the shortcomings of bottling. I still think I can get better than where I am at. As mom always says, there will be batches (days) like this.

 

[Plainer]

I got lost. When did you open up a bottle and it gushed? You say you opened one after 2 weeks of conditioning and it was okay? Was the gusher chilled for at least a full 24 hours?

Sorry, I was trying to get so many details out its difficult to articulate. I opened the first bottle after 2 weeks of conditioning and the result was no gusher. I opened the next bottle on the same day of the video, which was after about 4 plus weeks of conditioning and a couple days in refrigeration (between 2 and 3 days), and gusher. Have had 3 others since, all gushing like the video.

Was your bottle chilled? For how long?

For the one in the video a couple days. Can’t remember how long exactly. Since then I have had some in there for over a week and they still gush. I have a handful in the fridge now and will crack a few this weekend. My guess is the same result, but if it’s a change, then I will post up a new video.

Worse? like worse gushers or worse taste?

Worse meaning, much stronger gusher. No taste change.

Washing bottles in the dishwasher may not get everything clean. Water can't get right up into the bottle easily. Pouring the beer and rising right away with warm water has actually been pretty effective for me. Maybe do that. But really, I don't see an issue with your bottling process.

I was not really clear on this either, but I do the same as you with rinsing after each pour. I just throw it in the dishwasher for extra measure and to clean the outside of the bottle. I then store them in a box with a lid to minimize any dust.

Stop stirring your beer while in the bucket. Just a tip.

Hmmmn, I picked up that technique from advice in other threads on this very form. I will tone back on the stirring. Just to note, I stir very slowly as to not aggravate the barrier between the air and beer to not oxygenate.

You would taste brett. How are you measuring the sugar? Are you opening your beers cold?

Good to know that I would taste Brett. I am measuring the sugar with the same digital scale I use to measure hops, grain etc.

I'm kind of baffled by this. How do you rack your beer from the boil kettle to the fermenter?

Me too, I did a lot of searching on the forums before posting this and I am still baffled. I am doing something wrong or have some faint contamination but it’s hard to point at.
I pour my wart into the fermenter through a funnel strait from the kettle. My batches are just small enough that I can lift and pour without too awkward of a movement to spill everywhere. The funnel is large and easy to clean. I always dump it in the starsan too before use. No hose or anything on it.

 

[Plainer]

Not all gusher infections cause off flavors.

This is what I fear. I did read in another contamination thread “you will taste it if the beer has any contamination”, but I have to side with you on this.

Your sanitation for the bottles sounds OK as long as you are using the dishwasher on high heat to steam/dry the bottles and get them above boiling temp. Actually, still OK if you aren't since you're hitting them with star san. Bottle caps need to be sanitized too, BTW, since you didn't mention it.

Bottle caps soak in my sanitizer bucket too. Dishwasher is done just because I can and to keep the outside of the bottles clean as well.

I'll +1 on time for chilling the bottles before opening so that the priming CO2 has completely dissolved.
Not mentioned so far is final gravity. Has the final gravity you measured been the same over 3 days? If not, it might still finish fermenting in the bottle and over carbonate.

Discussed this above.

You can take one of the gushing bottles, open it, and let it sit for several days to off-gas before taking a gravity to see if it is lower gravity than it was than just before adding sugar to prime and bottle. If it is lower it is finishing fermentation in the bottles.

This is tremendously helpful. I will crack one tonight (drink half) and let the rest sit for a couple days. Good experiment. Should I expect one point lower in gravity due to the alcohol of the fermented priming sugar? roughly

 

[Plainer]

Thanks for all the help, questions and advice. So far I am going to do some experimenting on the following things.

Let the last week of fermentation occur at the same temperature as bottle conditioning (70 to 74). Also extend the time if needed.
Reduce the priming sugar amounts just to see.
Switch types of sugar (my own experiment)
Let one of this current beers go flat and measure the gravity.
Also because the ones I use are pretty cheap, I may just buy a couple new fermenting buckets in case there are any bugs living in them. This is my last step and will also coincide with a ridiculously detailed cleaning of all other cold side equipment.

Now I am just upping my post count

 

[bbohanon]

The other thing you can do is try this guys advice..I did this a number of times and it worked. Takes patience, but saves the beer as you lose quite a bit of it when its a gusher.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itrjDXPKEGw[/ame]

 

[Plainer]

Update on this. Now that the beers have aged a couple more weeks I am beginning to taste an off flavor, subtle but there. It just tastes “off” and by that I don’t mean stale, possible a touch sour. So now I guess all of the above carbonation concerns really ended up being a contamination. I will still adjust my practices though.

To verify this as suggested, I did let a sample go flat for a couple days and take a gravity measurement. Is was 4 points lower than bottling 1.012 as opposed to 1.016 at bottling.

My fermenters are a cheap and don’t have great cleaning access. They are already in the recycling and I have bought a new one as I wanted to change/upgrade anyway. My other cold side stuff will get a full clean/bleech/starsan treatment.


Bbohanon – I tried the tip in the video and it does make a difference. But I ran out of patience by 3 to 4 cracks and just drank it.

 

[BowAholic]

keep us informed...
good luck.

 

[willy_mugobeer]

I have the exact same problems going on, and use pretty much the exact same sanitation practices as you do. Same results -- medium gushers, beer doesn't taste bad, just too much foam -- especially on the last bottles of the batch.

One thing I've noticed -- the beers with this problem tend to leave a noticeable light brown ring at the top of the bottle once they're emptied....versus the batches that don't gush, leave no such ring. Have you see that in your bottles?

 

[pdxal]

I have the exact same problems going on, and use pretty much the exact same sanitation practices as you do. Same results -- medium gushers, beer doesn't taste bad, just too much foam -- especially on the last bottles of the batch.

One thing I've noticed -- the beers with this problem tend to leave a noticeable light brown ring at the top of the bottle once they're emptied....versus the batches that don't gush, leave no such ring. Have you see that in your bottles?

The ring means you have an infection.

 

[Plainer]

I have the exact same problems going on, and use pretty much the exact same sanitation practices as you do. Same results -- medium gushers, beer doesn't taste bad, just too much foam -- especially on the last bottles of the batch.

One thing I've noticed -- the beers with this problem tend to leave a noticeable light brown ring at the top of the bottle once they're emptied....versus the batches that don't gush, leave no such ring. Have you see that in your bottles?

I took a look in my bottles with a flashlight after reading your post. I cannot see much of a ring, I do have some small dots floating on the top of the beer in the neck of the bottle. They look white so now I am wondering if this is a lactobacillus infection I picked up. That may be jumping to conclusions a bit. I did not have a pellicle in the fermenter that I saw, but the fermenter I use to use had a very small opening and was not transparent so these things were difficult to inspect. Hence why it has been tossed.

It is hard for me to nail down because from the first time I had a mild gushing issue to now I had 3 successful brews in between. But I think that I need to consider them separate cases/causes.

In a couple weeks I am brewing a RIS that will sit in secondary for months, the wait in bottles until Christmas. This will give me the chance to see if anything develops in the fermenter. I hope not, because by the time I taste this beer I will have invested quite a bit into it.

 

[Plainer]

Just thought of something. I did use washed yeast on my AB clone that was from a previous brew (to make a starter). I boiled and used starsan on the glassware I used when washing the yeast but perhaps I got a bug there and this batch was infected form the get go. I don’t see any specific reason for this to be the source, but it is a few more steps where I could have messed something up.