infected bucket a complete loss?

[jdp]

It appears as though one of my buckets is infected. I did a search on the forum, but didn't find what I was looking for.

Is the bucket a loss, relegated to storage and mixing sanitizer, or can it actually be used to ferment again? I have some grain coming in on either saturday or monday and hope to brew a batch since my last two are crap.


How about filling it with boiling water?

 

[goose1873]

what? You are making no sense,,,

 

[BioBeing]

If the bucket is not all scratched up: Clean it as well as possible with oxyclean then soak it in bleach. 1 cup bleach in a full bucket of water should do (yes, that it a lot, but you want to kill everything, right?). Give it an hour at least. Take any spigot it might have apart and bleach it too. Take the O rings out of the lid, and bleach them too. Make sure there is no gunk stuck anywhere: bleach only works on things that are already clean.

If it is all scratched up: toss it.

 

[jeffmeh]

Or if it is all scratched up, rather than tossing it, clean it up well and use it for something other than in the cold side of your brewery.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

If you do the above and still feel uncertain about it, it's better to get a new bucket than risk infecting future batches.

 

[jdp]

If the bucket is not all scratched up: Clean it as well as possible with oxyclean then soak it in bleach. 1 cup bleach in a full bucket of water should do (yes, that it a lot, but you want to kill everything, right?). Give it an hour at least. Take any spigot it might have apart and bleach it too. Take the O rings out of the lid, and bleach them too. Make sure there is no gunk stuck anywhere: bleach only works on things that are already clean.

It doesn't look scratched up so I will give this a try. I really didn't feel too keen on trying to pour nearly 7 gallons of boiling water anyway. If it doesn't work, I guess I will have a really nice bucket to will with TSP.

 

[jdp]

If you do the above and still feel uncertain about it, it's better to get a new bucket than risk infecting future batches.

Well, I don't feel comletely sure, but I guess its worth a shot

 

[Baldy_Beer_Brewery]

If the bucket is not all scratched up: Clean it as well as possible with oxyclean then soak it in bleach. 1 cup bleach in a full bucket of water should do (yes, that it a lot, but you want to kill everything, right?). Give it an hour at least. Take any spigot it might have apart and bleach it too. Take the O rings out of the lid, and bleach them too. Make sure there is no gunk stuck anywhere: bleach only works on things that are already clean.

If it is all scratched up: toss it.

+1 and use cold water with bleach. Not the boiling or hot water you planned on.

Other than that... What makes you sure your problem is your bucket? What are you sanitizing with and how? Do you rack into your fermenter or dump? If you rack, is your racking equipment clean and sanitized? If you dump is your funnel clean and sanitized? Do you take the lid off often to take hydrometer readings and whatnot?

 

[jdc2]

It appears as though one of my buckets is infected. I did a search on the forum, but didn't find what I was looking for.

Is the bucket a loss, relegated to storage and mixing sanitizer, or can it actually be used to ferment again? I have some grain coming in on either saturday or monday and hope to brew a batch since my last two are crap.


How about filling it with boiling water?

I would just chuck it and switch to glass. Plastic is permeable, once
an infection gets in it, you can't get rid of it with anything.
Jim

 

[jeffmeh]

I would just chuck it and switch to glass. Plastic is permeable, once
an infection gets in it, you can't get rid of it with anything.
Jim

Please post your data source. It is my understanding that HDPE plastic in a bucket can be cleaned and sanitized to remove an infection, but that becomes extremely difficult if there are scratches that the cleaner and sanitizer cannot penetrate. Certainly glass is superior in this regard, but do you think that everyone who ferments in plastic buckets and carboys is always getting infections?

 

[sillyburt]

this is a great question (can you get rid of an infection in plastic fermentor) and hope someone has some good input.

 

[Houblon]

simple math really-->

cost of bucket =
cost of a lost batch of beer=

which is greater?


That said I still use lots of buckets but if I get a infection all plastic is replaced asap.

 

[jdc2]

Please post your data source. It is my understanding that HDPE plastic in a bucket can be cleaned and sanitized to remove an infection, but that becomes extremely difficult if there are scratches that the cleaner and sanitizer cannot penetrate. Certainly glass is superior in this regard, but do you think that everyone who ferments in plastic buckets and carboys is always getting infections?

It's in just about every book written by professionals, and I only used
one bucket, and it got infected. But the scratches
myth has been around for eons. Scratches are macroscopic, there is no
reason a sanitizer like bleach wouldn't penetrate into a scratch.
Jim

 

[BioBeing]

The method I posted is what I did to my bucket after I got an infection in my Ed Wort's Haus Pale Ale [when I had a bad batch of Nottingham that never took off]. It was sour, cloudy and disgusting. I cleaned the bucket, soaked it (and everything else that might have touched that beer) in bleach, then rinsed about a million times. I have used my bucket several times now with no more infections. It is also my lab's procedure for cleaning contaminated equipment (glass, stainless and plastic), as based off of NIH guidelines.

 

[3bals]

The real question here is: Does the OP really have an infection in his bucket and what makes him think so?

 

[BioBeing]

The real question here is: Does the OP really have an infection in his bucket and what makes him think so?

Yeah - that is a good question!

 

[jdp]

What makes you sure your problem is your bucket? What are you sanitizing with and how? Do you rack into your fermenter or dump? If you dump is your funnel clean and sanitized? Do you take the lid off often to take hydrometer readings and whatnot?

I have had two problem batches in a row, both using the same bucket. I dump into the bucket. I don't use a funnel. I have been sanitizing with one-step, but plan on switching to something else. with the one step, I soak for the duration of the boil, so after cooling, everything is ready to go. I don't take the lid off for anything, normally for at least two weeks when I either rack to secondary, or put into a keg. That is determined by whether or not one of my kegs is empty or not. I sanitize the same when racking to secondary. The hose, racking cane, better bottle, and anything else get a soak in one-step for around an hour.

I actually don't even use the hydrometer anymore for extract batches. so I am pretty sure that isn't the problem.

 

[jdc2]

The method I posted is what I did to my bucket after I got an infection in my Ed Wort's Haus Pale Ale [when I had a bad batch of Nottingham that never took off]. It was sour, cloudy and disgusting. I cleaned the bucket, soaked it (and everything else that might have touched that beer) in bleach, then rinsed about a million times. I have used my bucket several times now with no more infections. It is also my lab's procedure for cleaning contaminated equipment (glass, stainless and plastic), as based off of NIH guidelines.

You are talking about an infected beer, not an infected bucket.
I'm sure that if fill the bucket with water, add a relatively plastic
soluble sanitizer like a quarternary ammonium salt, and wait a long
time for it to diffuse into the plastic, you might get rid of an infection
in the bucket. But of course to find out for sure, you'll have to ferment
another batch in there to see if goes bad, and if it does, well, that's
another batch down the tubes. The easiest thing to do is get a
glass carboy and then you don't ever have to worry about it.
Jim

 

[wyzazz]

FWIW the FDA does not consider One Step a sanitizer. Pick up a bottle of StarSan and you won't be sorry! All Hail the MIGHTY FOAM!!!

 

[nealf]

I have had two problem batches in a row, both using the same bucket.

Do you think could elaborate on the word "problem" it isn't too descriptive. Is it a bad flavor, does it look funny, smell like death. It might not be the bucket... it might be a different problem completely.

 

[springer]

You are talking about an infected beer, not an infected bucket.
I'm sure that if fill the bucket with water, add a relatively plastic
soluble sanitizer like a quarternary ammonium salt, and wait a long
time for it to diffuse into the plastic, you might get rid of an infection
in the bucket. But of course to find out for sure, you'll have to ferment
another batch in there to see if goes bad, and if it does, well, that's
another batch down the tubes. The easiest thing to do is get a
glass carboy and then you don't ever have to worry about it.
Jim

I don't follow? The cause of infection is contamination so if you have an infection of the beer the bucket will also be infected by the wild yeast or bacteria.Bleach at that concentration will disinfect the plastic . Lots of people wont use glass like myself .

 

[BioBeing]

You are talking about an infected beer, not an infected bucket.
I'm sure that if fill the bucket with water, add a relatively plastic
soluble sanitizer like a quarternary ammonium salt, and wait a long
time for it to diffuse into the plastic, you might get rid of an infection
in the bucket. But of course to find out for sure, you'll have to ferment
another batch in there to see if goes bad, and if it does, well, that's
another batch down the tubes. The easiest thing to do is get a
glass carboy and then you don't ever have to worry about it.
Jim

Yeah, but the infected beer was "in" the bucket. Improper cleaning/sanitation and the infection would have stayed "in" the bucket, I'm sure.

In a good condition food safe bucket, bleach is going to kill everything.

I'm not sure about the scratch thing myself: my buckets are all less than 1 year old. I personally don't think a few scratches are going to harbor an infection against a good bleach soak. But then again, everyone has their own comfort level. If my infection had recurred after bleaching, I would incinerate the damn bucket, I'm sure!

 

[TheWhaleShark]

In a good condition food safe bucket, bleach is going to kill everything.

Well, not really, but it'll get it clean enough.

The only way to ensure total destruction is to sterilize, either by autoclaving or gassing with ethylene oxide.

As long as there aren't any really deep gouges in your bucket, you should be able to sanitize it. Surface scratches shouldn't be a problem, but deep gouges are very difficult to sanitize effectively.

 

[mkory]

Why couldn't you fill the bucket with hot enough water to kill anything in it. That should heat the plastic enough, right?

 

[jdp]

FWIW the FDA does not consider One Step a sanitizer. Pick up a bottle of StarSan and you won't be sorry! All Hail the MIGHTY FOAM!!!

I am aware of this and am just using one step until my supply is gone. However, I don't think this is the problem because the FDA used to consider it a sanitizer and was used for many many years in brewing. If someone has an experience that they know that one step failed after they followed the directions properly, I would certainly re-evaluate my opinion.

 

[jdp]

Do you think could elaborate on the word "problem" it isn't too descriptive. Is it a bad flavor, does it look funny, smell like death. It might not be the bucket... it might be a different problem completely.

the latest batch didn't smell like death like the first one, but has the same chloraseptic type taste. Thats bacterial if I have my facts straight.

 

[jdp]

One more thing I thought of while I was at work today. There are no real visible scratches, but a years worth of scrubbing with the coarse side of a sponge has given the inside of the bucket a matte like finish. These very fine scratches are what I had assumed would hold bacteria where sanitizer could not reach, is this correct? or should I just be worried about thick gouges?

FWIW, I think I am going to give a good bleach soak and try it one more time while really evaluating my sanitation. I believe I have been doing everything by the book, bordering on being anal, but there may be something I am missing.

 

[Stickshaker]

the latest batch didn't smell like death like the first one, but has the same chloraseptic type smell. Thats bacterial if I have my facts straight.

Or chlorinated water. I'm dealing with the same thing...

 

[jdp]

Or chlorinated water. I'm dealing with the same thing...

I have been using bottled drinking water from the start. the problem just showed up in these last couple batches and I haven't changed brands. I guess it could be the problem but it would be suprising. Maybe my next batch I will try another company along with everything else.

 

[Baldy_Beer_Brewery]

I'm betting the problem goes away when you are out of One Step and start using something else.

 

[wyzazz]

I am aware of this and am just using one step until my supply is gone. However, I don't think this is the problem because the FDA used to consider it a sanitizer and was used for many many years in brewing. If someone has an experience that they know that one step failed after they followed the directions properly, I would certainly re-evaluate my opinion.

I'm just sayin... ...I use StarSan...

 

[jdp]

I get it, and I am going to switch once the jar disappears. I just don't believe this is the problem. I brewed well over 100 gallons from april until december with no problems at all. I am by no means the only one that has used it successfully either.

That being said, I do know that there are better products out there and when I place my next order, a better sanitizer will be on that list.


BTW, there is only enough to mix another 5 gallons. I know its pretty wastefull, but I mix a full buckets worth each time I use it to be sure everything gets the alloted contact time. That is actually one of the biggest reasons for the switch. It seems to me that a good thick foam will coat bucket walls and lids without using 5-6 gallons each time.

 

[impatient]

100 gallons?
Do you have a commercial liscense?

Dont be a dumb a s s

 

[jdp]

100 gallons?
Do you have a commercial liscense?

Dont be a dumb a s s

There are two legal age drinking adults in my household. That allows me 200 gallons doesn't it?


he called me dumb

-=Edit, again=-
This has been been bugging me since I read the post and I struggled a little with how to handle it. That being said, leaving it alone just didn't sit right.

Calling somebody dumb is a very big peeve of mine. The other one is being wrongly accused of something. You managed to do both in less than 15 words. I realize you have no way of knowing what may be someones hot buttons without getting to know them, but there are things you can do before you make such an ignorant statement.

The first would be to check their state laws. You can see right under my join date that I live in CA. If you checked, you would know that there is a possibility that I might be able to make more than 100 gallons per year. (california state statute § 23356.2)

As far as calling someone a dumb a s s, all I can say is when you do, at least try to spell better than a 12 year old. Not that I care all that much. Sometimes I see that I make mistakes in posts and don't bother to change them because I don't think it's that important...But I don't call people stupid either.

 

[jeffmeh]

It's in just about every book written by professionals, and I only used
one bucket, and it got infected. But the scratches
myth has been around for eons. Scratches are macroscopic, there is no
reason a sanitizer like bleach wouldn't penetrate into a scratch.
Jim

With all due respect, thousands of brewers ferment in buckets and have no problems with infections. Stating that a bucket cannot be sanitized and that the solution is a glass carboy is unfounded. And "It's in just about every book..." does not constitute citing a credible source.

 

[wyzazz]

I don't think that glass is the answer, I ferment in plastic and SS both with no issues. I only own 1 glass carboy. However, if I had an infected batch that fermented in a plastic vessel I'd just trash it and replace the plastic vessel. It's soooo cheap to replace it that I wouldn't chance it.

If you've got a Wal-Mart close, head on down to the Camping/Sporting Goods section and pick up an Aqua-Tainer. I drill out the small vent in the back for a blow-off tube/airlock and use them for "no chill" and regular batches with no issues. The best part is they are only $10.88 before tax!

 

[nealf]

the latest batch didn't smell like death like the first one, but has the same chloraseptic type taste. Thats bacterial if I have my facts straight.

I was at a BJCP Beer Off-Flavor tasting last night and we went over this off flavor you are describing. This is from the BJCP website and it seems to say that it is either water or bleach sanitizer. If you are dead set against getting rid of your bucket next time you can crush up a campden tablet and put it in your water to clear out the possible chlorine/chloramine. If the off flavor still exists I would try a different sanitizer.

Don't focus too much on the last part of the solution, they generally put "Check for infection" on every off flavor solution.


Problem:
Medicinal (chlorophenolic)
Chloroseptic, medicine cabinet

Solution:
Avoid water with chlorine or chloramines (use RO water if necessary). Avoid bleach sanitizers. Reduce astringency/grain husk sources. Avoid excessive whole hop use. Check for infection.

 

[jdc2]

With all due respect, thousands of brewers ferment in buckets and have no problems with infections. Stating that a bucket cannot be sanitized and that the solution is a glass carboy is unfounded. And "It's in just about every book..." does not constitute citing a credible source.

Well, when I get a chance I'll look through all my brewing books and
post the quotes. All I can tell you is I brewed about 8 batches in a bucket,
it developed an acetic acid smell which could not be removed, and the
beers made in it weren't very good. When I switched to glass I had
no problem or any problem since. I'm sure a bucket can be used
for quite a while if you are careful, but eventually it will go.
Jim

 

[jdc2]

The acetic smell in my bucket was probably due to the fact that
HDPE is permeable to gases and other small molecules like acetic
acid. I doubt that it's actually permeable to microorganisms, but
this permeability is used by companies like Ciba-Geigy to engineer
plastics which contain anti-microbials, and these substances permeate
OUT of the plastic to sanitize the surface. The scratches causing
infection idea by itself never made sense to me, since the scratches
are macroscopic and any molecule of sodium hypochlorite can
get in there. But Dave Miller's book on homebrewing has an
explanation of why scratches cause a problem that makes sense:

Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide (1995)
"No matter how gentle and careful you are, plastic
will get scratched as you clean it, and scratches
are a perfect lodging place for sludge, which
in turn will become a home for microbes." p164

So that makes more sense. The yeast sludge gets in a tiny
scratch, it can't be removed just by scrubbing, and the
mass of sludge in the scratch is a home for bacteria.
Jim

 

[BioBeing]

The acetic smell in my bucket was probably due to the fact that
HDPE is permeable to gases and other small molecules like acetic
acid. I doubt that it's actually permeable to microorganisms, but
this permeability is used by companies like Ciba-Geigy to engineer
plastics which contain anti-microbials, and these substances permeate
OUT of the plastic to sanitize the surface.

Triclosan (trade name Microban; the antibacterial (antibiotic really) in question) is incorporated into the plastic during manufacturing. If it does diffuse out, then the antibacterial properties of the plastic would be lost very quickly.

[soap box]On another note: triclosan targets the same enzyme as isoniazid, the main anti-tuberculosis drug. Too much swilling around and we are going to see a rise in resistant strains of TB.

Further: there is no evidence that triclosan-impregnated plastic actually make us any healthier. In fact, companies are not allowed to even make this claim. [/soap box]

The scratches causing
infection idea by itself never made sense to me, since the scratches
are macroscopic and any molecule of sodium hypochlorite can
get in there. But Dave Miller's book on homebrewing has an
explanation of why scratches cause a problem that makes sense:

Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide (1995)
"No matter how gentle and careful you are, plastic
will get scratched as you clean it, and scratches
are a perfect lodging place for sludge, which
in turn will become a home for microbes." p164

So that makes more sense. The yeast sludge gets in a tiny
scratch, it can't be removed just by scrubbing, and the
mass of sludge in the scratch is a home for bacteria.
Jim

That does make sense. So strictly speaking it is the inability of the cleaner (like oxyclean) to remove the organic matter in the first place rather than the in ability of the sanitizer to sanitize (as things should be clean and free of organic matter before you sanitize).

However, I maintain that a well looked after bucket is still a good place to ferment if that is what you want to do (and I do ). YMMV.