Helpful advice to the OP would be appreciated. Anything discussing religion on it's own warrants closing of the thread. I'd recommend the helpful and encouraging advice path.
In-Laws having an issue with my brewing
- Thread starter JosephN
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In fairness, we only know what anyone chooses to disclose. Since he was asking what we thought of it, it was in his interest to present something reasonably factual.
I'm not sure religion is necessarily being bashed, but if it's being used as a basis for which someone should not drink, beer or otherwise, in fairness I think it's also reasonable to question whether the premises of such are useful in parsing the problem.
Well, he said he told her at the outset what he was about, and she agreed to see him. Now, married for two years.
True...my wife is ok with my brewing--interestingly, years ago she first suggested it (I'm talking like maybe 15 years ago). But she's also not fond of my shooting sports interests. Marriage is a give and take, there are things I don't like which are compromises I make in the marriage.
You're a mod, and keeping us on track is a good thing. Appreciate the effort and attention required.
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As you aloud to, one idea might be put a stopping point here, by putting a redirection a link to a new thread in the debate section.
Noting anything short of sincere advice will be deleted or lock it after the redirection link.
Edit: Talking religion and use of alcohol can be a delicate subject in itself. In 83 posts the OP has not chimed in yet, he must be running one of those marathons.
Here's the deal. If you don't like the subject, just leave quietly. That means, don't post, just leave.
Don't bother knocking religion. This is not a religious issue - it's a human nature, nozy judgmental inlaws issue. Loads of people on here, including moderators (not me
), that are devoutly religious - so, ipso facto religious people are OK with beer.
My comment to the OP is you're a grown man, explain that to your wife. You will forge your own path in your life and you don't need the inlaws to clear that path for you. You don't need to be perfect, but just fulfill your responsibilities. All of nature expects you to provide for your family in many ways; if you can pull that off while brewing and drinking, then I'd put a suggestion box near the kitchen garbage can and tell the inlaws to submit their ideas there.
Don't bother knocking religion. This is not a religious issue - it's a human nature, nozy judgmental inlaws issue. Loads of people on here, including moderators (not me
), that are devoutly religious - so, ipso facto religious people are OK with beer. My comment to the OP is you're a grown man, explain that to your wife. You will forge your own path in your life and you don't need the inlaws to clear that path for you. You don't need to be perfect, but just fulfill your responsibilities. All of nature expects you to provide for your family in many ways; if you can pull that off while brewing and drinking, then I'd put a suggestion box near the kitchen garbage can and tell the inlaws to submit their ideas there.
I suggest a false wall in the basement concealing your very own panic room... as a bonus you could put a picture on the wall with eye holes, Scooby Doo style to monitor for their presence.
Nine pages of posts and no one has provided the obvious answer, which is to give 10% of your beer to the church.
The underlying issue is the formation of a false logic, i.e. all people who drink beer are alcoholics. I for one am a supporter of showing their judgment to be wrong by example. Show them that you are more than just a home brewer. Be a great dad, a loving husband, an extra hand when needed. Over time, people tend to see the truth in people. And if they don't, then that's on them, not on you. Then you can remind them that its OK, and you forgive them for their judgment, because that's what Jesus says to do.
The underlying issue is the formation of a false logic, i.e. all people who drink beer are alcoholics. I for one am a supporter of showing their judgment to be wrong by example. Show them that you are more than just a home brewer. Be a great dad, a loving husband, an extra hand when needed. Over time, people tend to see the truth in people. And if they don't, then that's on them, not on you. Then you can remind them that its OK, and you forgive them for their judgment, because that's what Jesus says to do.
aeviaanah
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In other words, he's telling all of us to remember the number one rule here on HBT that has been unspoken but always understood: Don't be a dick.
If you have something helpful or insightful, we'd all love to hear it. If you have something critical, but still helpful, we'd all love to hear it.
Otherwise, it's like my mama used to say, "STFU". (My momma was a spitfire.)
Some of the most reverent and devout folks I know brew. It's not religion that drives small mindedness, so let's stop attacking that aspect. Let's discuss how to help someone with an inlaw issue.
Thanks!
If you take the religion out of the conversation, who has the ethical issue? The OP or the in-laws? To me, that's a conversation that has a better chance of finding something that looks like the truth, for the faithful and non-faithful alike.
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I feel for you brother. I got pretty lucky with the in-law lottery as even though mine all have or had issues being up in my business was never one of them. Luckily for me although they were all religious they were also liberal Presbyterians and there's not a recovering alcoholic or teetotaler in the bunch. Also my wife loves her wine at times as much as she loves me.
I think you just need to be sure your wife is on your side of the argument and then respectfully stand up for yourself to your in-laws. Tell them you're tired of the snarky remarks and if they continue you are going to have to reevaluate how you and your wife spend your discretionary time as you don't need more negativity in your life.
I think you just need to be sure your wife is on your side of the argument and then respectfully stand up for yourself to your in-laws. Tell them you're tired of the snarky remarks and if they continue you are going to have to reevaluate how you and your wife spend your discretionary time as you don't need more negativity in your life.
GHBWNY
Well-Known Member
In-laws and family members can and will do and say things they may not be aware are striking deeper than they realize. This includes us all. Sometimes it's hard to keep our mouths shut and even a slight comment can cling to another's psyche for the rest of their life without us knowing it. I know, I've done it to my own family members.
Before we got married, my wife and I were living together and thought nothing of it, and convinced ourselves that both sets of our church-going parents didn't care because we didn't care and treated it so casually. Eventually, as we grew up and grew together, our thinking, priorities and habits changed and we realized that our parents had cared, but had given us the grace to do --- right or wrong --- what we did without comment or intervention. On the back side of that we learned more by fumbling through the ramifications of our behavior than we would have had they made their judgments vocal or confrontational, or had tried to stop us. I suspect there were discussions about us, but never in front of us.
I mention this as a reminder to the rest of us who WILL at some point in time, say or do something to someone in the same manner the OP's FIL has confronted him. And for those of us who find ourselves at the receiving end of the confrontation, as one poster suggested: take the higher road. There's enough grace to go around.
Before we got married, my wife and I were living together and thought nothing of it, and convinced ourselves that both sets of our church-going parents didn't care because we didn't care and treated it so casually. Eventually, as we grew up and grew together, our thinking, priorities and habits changed and we realized that our parents had cared, but had given us the grace to do --- right or wrong --- what we did without comment or intervention. On the back side of that we learned more by fumbling through the ramifications of our behavior than we would have had they made their judgments vocal or confrontational, or had tried to stop us. I suspect there were discussions about us, but never in front of us.
I mention this as a reminder to the rest of us who WILL at some point in time, say or do something to someone in the same manner the OP's FIL has confronted him. And for those of us who find ourselves at the receiving end of the confrontation, as one poster suggested: take the higher road. There's enough grace to go around.
I remember my mother-in-law giving my father-in-law a hard time at dinner once because he ordered a second beer - she was concerned because he had to drive the next day.
I believed I ordered a second beer, out of solidarity.
I believed I ordered a second beer, out of solidarity.
This may be the second wisest thing I've ever read on HBT.
Inlaws may have alcoholics in their family, that they do or don't talk about. Many people that do have familial addiction issues learn to worry about their loved ones becoming effected by the problem. Honestly, since the OP has been silent, perhaps due to the few antireligion remarks, or just put your foot down "solutions" I'm surprised this is still going. My final thought for the OP, or anyone with an interpersonal issue, is talk with them and sincerely ask what they are afraid of happening. Listen carefully to the answers and thoughtfully take them under consideration. Offer reassurance that whatever they have been catastriphizing over, you will take steps to prevent.
invictusbrew
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"catastrophizing"
I had to look that one up to make sure it was a word - it is indeed a word and a good one at that, I will have to find reason in the future to try and use it. Thanks, Hoppy!
This is not directed at anyone in particular, just some thoughts I had while reading through the thread:
There are certainly thousands of angles we could look at for this, but unfortunately life is far more complex than brewing and the type of information we might need in order to keep everyone happy and in agreement that we know ALL of the ins and outs of the situation would likely take more server space than HBT has and more free time than any of us could find. Besides, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to OP in saying this, bringing a question like this to a homebrewing forum can probably go in a similar category as asking your drinking buddies if you have a drinking problem. The response is going to be biased. If this were asked on a religious forum (or any other forum for that matter) it would have likely been biased in a different way. Good, bad or indifferent, we are on a homebrewing forum and our responses to these type of things are going to be biased and skewed because of that. Most of us are not necessarily the same person on Friday/Saturday night as we are on Sunday morning (for some it's a minor difference, for others it's far more noticeable), and the advice that we would give in different company can vary tremendously.
We are an incredibly diverse and amazingly intelligent group of people here on HBT (well, you guys are intelligent at least, I just try my best to keep up), but when we log into this forum it's usually because we are in the homebrew mindset. Homebrewing is fun and the hobby breeds a lot of jest and playfulness that may be better suited outside of this topic, sure, but it is how many of us show support and being mindful of that is just as important as OP trying to look at things through his in-laws eyes and at least attempting to see if there is any weight in what they are telling him. Personally (and I think it's very obvious that everyone is different), I would be appreciative of all the comments made in this thread if I were OP. I mean we've really got it all: the consolation, the back-slapping, the comedic relief, the good-natured ribbing, the devil's advocates, a hard liner or two, and heck, we even have Yooper telling us not to be dicks!
What I mean to say is that it takes all types, friends. In this forum and certainly in our real lives and relationships. OP, my personal recommendation is that you listen to the folks in this thread who have stressed understanding (on both sides of the ball) and talk it all over with your in-laws, see their point of view, and let them see yours. Keep a level head and if you can't do that then at least politely remove yourself from the situation until you can. At the end of the day these people are your wife's family, and if for no other reason, that one fact should make them important enough to hear them out, even if they decide not to hear you out. Certainly the decision is between you and your wife ultimately, but that doesn't mean that you should blow the in-laws off either. Out of respect for your wife you should at least try and talk it over, and I mean really try to talk it over with her family.
In any case, whatever it is that you decide to do I wish you good luck and pray that the two sides can eventually see eye to eye on the subject and that you all find a way to grow together from this experience rather than having it be something that puts distance between you.
Cheers
I had to look that one up to make sure it was a word - it is indeed a word and a good one at that, I will have to find reason in the future to try and use it. Thanks, Hoppy!
This is not directed at anyone in particular, just some thoughts I had while reading through the thread:
There are certainly thousands of angles we could look at for this, but unfortunately life is far more complex than brewing and the type of information we might need in order to keep everyone happy and in agreement that we know ALL of the ins and outs of the situation would likely take more server space than HBT has and more free time than any of us could find. Besides, and I mean absolutely no disrespect to OP in saying this, bringing a question like this to a homebrewing forum can probably go in a similar category as asking your drinking buddies if you have a drinking problem. The response is going to be biased. If this were asked on a religious forum (or any other forum for that matter) it would have likely been biased in a different way. Good, bad or indifferent, we are on a homebrewing forum and our responses to these type of things are going to be biased and skewed because of that. Most of us are not necessarily the same person on Friday/Saturday night as we are on Sunday morning (for some it's a minor difference, for others it's far more noticeable), and the advice that we would give in different company can vary tremendously.
We are an incredibly diverse and amazingly intelligent group of people here on HBT (well, you guys are intelligent at least, I just try my best to keep up), but when we log into this forum it's usually because we are in the homebrew mindset. Homebrewing is fun and the hobby breeds a lot of jest and playfulness that may be better suited outside of this topic, sure, but it is how many of us show support and being mindful of that is just as important as OP trying to look at things through his in-laws eyes and at least attempting to see if there is any weight in what they are telling him. Personally (and I think it's very obvious that everyone is different), I would be appreciative of all the comments made in this thread if I were OP. I mean we've really got it all: the consolation, the back-slapping, the comedic relief, the good-natured ribbing, the devil's advocates, a hard liner or two, and heck, we even have Yooper telling us not to be dicks!
What I mean to say is that it takes all types, friends. In this forum and certainly in our real lives and relationships. OP, my personal recommendation is that you listen to the folks in this thread who have stressed understanding (on both sides of the ball) and talk it all over with your in-laws, see their point of view, and let them see yours. Keep a level head and if you can't do that then at least politely remove yourself from the situation until you can. At the end of the day these people are your wife's family, and if for no other reason, that one fact should make them important enough to hear them out, even if they decide not to hear you out. Certainly the decision is between you and your wife ultimately, but that doesn't mean that you should blow the in-laws off either. Out of respect for your wife you should at least try and talk it over, and I mean really try to talk it over with her family.
In any case, whatever it is that you decide to do I wish you good luck and pray that the two sides can eventually see eye to eye on the subject and that you all find a way to grow together from this experience rather than having it be something that puts distance between you.
Cheers
Here's hoping the OP is reading...a similar, but not quite the same, story may help.
I empathize completely. I grew up in the same part of the country and wonder if the in-laws were like mine.....generations rooted in the church and steadfast in tradition. And the traditions and beliefs were no alcohol and no discussion of it. Wrong. Period. No wavering because that's the way it had been for generations. They were well known to bash even a teetotaller. Deacons and leading church figures were they. And that was only the beginning of the different beliefs. I was raised in an environment of exposure to alcohol from the first memories of family gatherings. My family was those "damn yankees."
I was fortunate enough to begin dating my wife before we could legally drink, or illegally for that matter as it was a dry county and our bootlegger would not sell to minors. I then proceeded to corrupt her with alcohol as she moved away to college and out from the disdain and intervention and became aware of the rest of the world. After several years together (some spent in cohabitation unknown to the in-laws) we announced a marriage. We had two ceremonies and two receptions....one at her grandparents (grandfather was the longest serving deacon in the church and the preacher was his best friend and frequently at their house when we would visit) with cake and tea and limited guests and another across town at my parents.....WITH BEER!!!!! When we announced our intentions, we learned there had been lots of discussion about our relationship within her family but no one had ever approached us about it. Being out of town probably helped that considerably and with lots of people around at family gatherings, it would not have been "proper." Interventions are not things they do but talking about them is. We also were told that I had gained respect despite the fact that they knew I drank....I did not flaunt drinking, nor did I profess any dislike for any beliefs opposed to it.
We invited the in-laws to my parents with the full revelation of drinking and revelry...they chose not to attend and only then did they comment on the drinking and say they could not attend such a function. And I truly believe that it was not their opposition to the drinking but their fear of what the rest of the brethren might say. They considered themselves role models and that required exemplary behavior. In my years of growing up in Middle Tennessee, I learned that was the biggest motivator among many and was so prevalent that one had to learn to respect it as a way of life. Not like it, but respect its dominance.
We went years with limited visits, both parties choosing to let sleeping dogs lie. I know this bothered my wife. I finally decided to kick the dog. I invited them and broke out a beer and also revealed the homebrewing. I laid all the cards on the table and reminded them they knew for years that I drank, that I had never been drunk around them, that I respected their beliefs and had not even drunk alcohol in front of them and that we had not been destitute or homeless or lacking because of the money spent on my hobby, which I wanted so desperately to point out was significantly less than what they spent on cigarettes............I asked for the same respect that I had earned earlier be extended to include my homebrewing. I had earned the right to marry their daughter. Did I not have the right now to take care of her without intervention? But should I feel the need, could I count on them for advice when I sought it? And if they did truly feel that a problem was developing related to beer and/or homebrewing that they should approach us and we could have reasonable discussions. And if someone criticizes us or them for anything related to beer, then perhaps they should simply remind them of the good things we do and ask rhetorically if the other party would not agree that we are basically decent people and the beer should not be our sole judgement? After all, let he who is without sin cast the first stone........
A calm, respectful, not defensive but appealing to their love and respect discussion worked. I never heard another word about it. Sadly I had hoped for loftier goals; actual inquisitiveness. But that didn't happen. I still consider that a little lack of respect but one I was willing to trade.
Good luck.
I empathize completely. I grew up in the same part of the country and wonder if the in-laws were like mine.....generations rooted in the church and steadfast in tradition. And the traditions and beliefs were no alcohol and no discussion of it. Wrong. Period. No wavering because that's the way it had been for generations. They were well known to bash even a teetotaller. Deacons and leading church figures were they. And that was only the beginning of the different beliefs. I was raised in an environment of exposure to alcohol from the first memories of family gatherings. My family was those "damn yankees."
I was fortunate enough to begin dating my wife before we could legally drink, or illegally for that matter as it was a dry county and our bootlegger would not sell to minors. I then proceeded to corrupt her with alcohol as she moved away to college and out from the disdain and intervention and became aware of the rest of the world. After several years together (some spent in cohabitation unknown to the in-laws) we announced a marriage. We had two ceremonies and two receptions....one at her grandparents (grandfather was the longest serving deacon in the church and the preacher was his best friend and frequently at their house when we would visit) with cake and tea and limited guests and another across town at my parents.....WITH BEER!!!!! When we announced our intentions, we learned there had been lots of discussion about our relationship within her family but no one had ever approached us about it. Being out of town probably helped that considerably and with lots of people around at family gatherings, it would not have been "proper." Interventions are not things they do but talking about them is. We also were told that I had gained respect despite the fact that they knew I drank....I did not flaunt drinking, nor did I profess any dislike for any beliefs opposed to it.
We invited the in-laws to my parents with the full revelation of drinking and revelry...they chose not to attend and only then did they comment on the drinking and say they could not attend such a function. And I truly believe that it was not their opposition to the drinking but their fear of what the rest of the brethren might say. They considered themselves role models and that required exemplary behavior. In my years of growing up in Middle Tennessee, I learned that was the biggest motivator among many and was so prevalent that one had to learn to respect it as a way of life. Not like it, but respect its dominance.
We went years with limited visits, both parties choosing to let sleeping dogs lie. I know this bothered my wife. I finally decided to kick the dog. I invited them and broke out a beer and also revealed the homebrewing. I laid all the cards on the table and reminded them they knew for years that I drank, that I had never been drunk around them, that I respected their beliefs and had not even drunk alcohol in front of them and that we had not been destitute or homeless or lacking because of the money spent on my hobby, which I wanted so desperately to point out was significantly less than what they spent on cigarettes............I asked for the same respect that I had earned earlier be extended to include my homebrewing. I had earned the right to marry their daughter. Did I not have the right now to take care of her without intervention? But should I feel the need, could I count on them for advice when I sought it? And if they did truly feel that a problem was developing related to beer and/or homebrewing that they should approach us and we could have reasonable discussions. And if someone criticizes us or them for anything related to beer, then perhaps they should simply remind them of the good things we do and ask rhetorically if the other party would not agree that we are basically decent people and the beer should not be our sole judgement? After all, let he who is without sin cast the first stone........
A calm, respectful, not defensive but appealing to their love and respect discussion worked. I never heard another word about it. Sadly I had hoped for loftier goals; actual inquisitiveness. But that didn't happen. I still consider that a little lack of respect but one I was willing to trade.
Good luck.
I'm sorry your having to deal with this. Having lived my entire life in the buckle of the Bible belt (Tennessee) my experience is you aren't going to change your in-laws beliefs so don't even try. Trying to reason or argue about it, including quoting Biblical passages is pointless.
But that's OK because this is not about religious beliefs. It's about respect and boundaries.
My wife and I have an agreement -- I handle my parents, she handles hers. If my mom starts telling my wife how to raise our kids, for example, it's my job to step in and stop it. Same with my wife and her parents. I don't know if this would work for you guys, but it works for us.
So I would discuss all this with your wife. If she prefers to stay out of it, then it's going to be up to you to respectfully but firmly lay out the ground rules -- your house, your life, your rules. The in-laws don't have to agree with them, or even like them, but they have to respect them.
But that's OK because this is not about religious beliefs. It's about respect and boundaries.
My wife and I have an agreement -- I handle my parents, she handles hers. If my mom starts telling my wife how to raise our kids, for example, it's my job to step in and stop it. Same with my wife and her parents. I don't know if this would work for you guys, but it works for us.
So I would discuss all this with your wife. If she prefers to stay out of it, then it's going to be up to you to respectfully but firmly lay out the ground rules -- your house, your life, your rules. The in-laws don't have to agree with them, or even like them, but they have to respect them.
Terek
"Did I just drop down a rabbit hole?"
i never said they are wrong for not drinking beer.......i said they are wrong for thinking its bad for you
