I'm losing my mind on this one...

[rhad]

Soooo....

I'm getting an astringent flavor in my beers... it's bizarre and I don't know where it's coming from. Let's go down the list and try to figure out the likely culprit. Note that I am an "extract with grains" brewer.

1) Water pH. Highly unlikely the problem. I always use bottled water, usually half spring and half distilled. As an extract brewer I'm less sensitive in theory anyhow..

2) Too hot when I steep. Very doubtful, I'm pretty anal about shutting it off at 160F and letting it steep without any further heat. I.e., it'll steep from 160 down to 150 or so. I don't think I'm milling too fine because I've always milled like this and the problem is new...

3) Overhopping. Impossible. I am not a "big hops" guy. I prefer a very subtle hop character. IPAs are some of my least favorite beers, for example.

4) Infection. Doubtful, but not impossible. I use iodine, but usually rinse anyway because I don't want iodine flavors in the beer (even though in theory they should be imperceptible assuming you dose correctly). I just recently got a new wort chiller, and I was afraid it was the copper...but I cleaned it repeatedly and I soak it in iodine water before I use it each time. It's possible that the rinse is the culprit and I should move to something "no-rinse" or rinse with pre-boiled water. Dunno. I have a tap system and I was afraid that was the issue (mold in the tap or line) so I flushed iodine water through it and took it apart to clean it. Seems ok. Any thoughts?

5) Temperature in the fermenter. I'm leaning towards this as the culprit, which is fantastically annoying since I have a fancy temperature-controlled chest freezer specifically to avoid this. I usually ferment at 68F or so, but I know that the beer is often 5 degrees warmer than this. In the case of this last batch (trippel) fermentation went absolutely bonkers and I would not be surprised if it was +10F in the beer, which is way too hot. I consider this likely a culprit. But is "astringency" a common result of high fermentation temps? I don't recall ever reading that... Thoughts?

6) Nasty brown kreusen getting into the beer. Possible, as I did not connect the blowoff tube on this last batch until probably a bit later than I should have. If I'm using a plastic fermenter I would think this is avoidable by skimming it off (although this seems excessive as hell given that it should stick nicely to the sides). In a 6.5 gallon carboy the "stick" method is the only method. Thoughts?

So, I'm looking for advice. I've recently upgraded a lot of my equipment, so this "astringent" beer problem is really starting to depress me.

 

[ktblunden]

Is your thermometer accurate? Check that in a glass of ice water and in a pot of boiling water and see if it reads correctly. Try another thermometer alongside it to see if they agree.

Your ferm temps are likely going too high, if possible tape your probe to the side of your fermentation vessel to get a more accurate picture of what your wort temperature actually is.

 

[OldWorld]

Try racking the beer on the second week of fermentation. Then let all the nasty brown/hop particle goodies settle down one last time.

It sounds like you just got a bit of trub in the brew.

 

[rhad]

Is your thermometer accurate? Check that in a glass of ice water and in a pot of boiling water and see if it reads correctly. Try another thermometer alongside it to see if they agree.

I have another thermometer in the cooler as a check. The controller is about 3 degrees off but I compensate (e.g., I set it to 64 to get 67).

Your ferm temps are likely going too high, if possible tape your probe to the side of your fermentation vessel to get a more accurate picture of what your wort temperature actually is.

Yeah - but does that cause astringency? I always understood that higher ferm. temps is pretty much a guarantee for estery fruit notes. But astringency?

EDIT: ok. John Palmer's book indicates high temps can give a "solvent" flavor. This is also possible.

I was planning on getting some of the temp-sticker for my carboys from here on out.

 

[rhad]

Try racking the beer on the second week of fermentation. Then let all the nasty brown/hop particle goodies settle down one last time.

It sounds like you just got a bit of trub in the brew.

This is possible. I typically rack at 7-10 days though. However, in this case the fermentation was so ridiculous even with the blowoff tube it sounded like the lid was holding on for dear life. A consistent "eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" pitch. Hilarious, actually.

Because of that, it might be that some of the horridly bitter top kreusen layer was forced back into the beer. Which would be a definite cause. Should I make it a habit to open the lid and scrape the top layer off?

 

[chumpsteak]

I don't like the fact that you're soaking your wort chiller in iodine prior to using it. I just rinse mine after I use it with water from the hose and then hit it with the hose real quick before dunking it in the wort 15 minutes from the end of the boil.

 

[ktblunden]

I have another thermometer in the cooler as a check. The controller is about 3 degrees off but I compensate (e.g., I set it to 64 to get 67).

I'm talking about the thermometer you use for your steeping. If that's reading low you could be steeping at a much higher temperature, which will definitely cause astringency.

 

[Zamial]

I don't like the fact that you're soaking your wort chiller in iodine prior to using it. I just rinse mine after I use it with water from the hose and then hit it with the hose real quick before dunking it in the wort 15 minutes from the end of the boil.

^^ this.

Starsan is freaking cheap for the peace of mind you get and I spray it on ANYTHING that touches my wort post boil, preboil is not really a concern. For a cleanser I use either PBW or oxyclean free.

The other thing I would like to suggest is to simply not secondary. MANY people here do not use a secondary unless they are adding an ingredient or clearing wine. I leave the beer on the yeast for a solid 3 weeks as a general rule(sometimes longer) and the cake will be more dense which gives you more beer AND it gives the yeast time to help clean up off flavors from the crazy party they had in your beer.

 

[rhad]

I'm talking about the thermometer you use for your steeping. If that's reading low you could be steeping at a much higher temperature, which will definitely cause astringency.

Ah. Well I'm covered there as well with two thermometers. Is the amount of water you use for the steep a big deal?

 

[rhad]

^^ this.

Starsan is freaking cheap for the peace of mind you get and I spray it on ANYTHING that touches my wort post boil, preboil is not really a concern. For a cleanser I use either PBW or oxyclean free.

Ok. No iodine for the chiller - just sanitize via the boil. Got it. I can move to PBW I guess, I've just been using iodine out of habit.

The other thing I would like to suggest is to simply not secondary. MANY people here do not use a secondary unless they are adding an ingredient or clearing wine. I leave the beer on the yeast for a solid 3 weeks as a general rule(sometimes longer) and the cake will be more dense which gives you more beer AND it gives the yeast time to help clean up off flavors from the crazy party they had in your beer.

This is one of those things I often hear but that seems to have two distinct opinions. My understanding is that the trub can lead to off flavors and that if you leave it in a plastic primary as CO2 production peters off, O2 can permeate through the plastic and oxidize your beer. I always rack, and let it sit another 2 weeks or so, and then cold crash (Assuming I'm patient enough).

I guess if I use glass primaries I should be able to do it all in one...do you rack straight to the keg then after three weeks?

 

[boscobeans]

I don't like the fact that you're soaking your wort chiller in iodine prior to using it. I just rinse mine after I use it with water from the hose and then hit it with the hose real quick before dunking it in the wort 15 minutes from the end of the boil.

Not sure (chemistry was many, many years in my past) but Copper and Iodine can, under the right conditions form copper iodide. If this is formed on the coils of your chiller it will easily dissolve in the wort and it is extremely bitter / astringent.

Just a thought.

bosco

 

[rhad]

Now that you guys mention it, my chiller has a tarnished look (and yes, i cleaned it with acetic acid at first). I am going to clean it again here and see if I can get back that "shiny" look. Is it ok to use copper cleaner like brasso?

Now that I think about it....my chiller does not come out of the beer "shiny" as is typical from what I understand... hmmmmm

 

[boscobeans]

I would avoid Brasso. Try straight white vinegar 5% acetic acid. Mine comes out shiny and new looking with only a spray of StarSan silution.

bosco

 

[rhad]

Danke. We'll see.

 

[Zamial]

I broke this up for the sake of clarity...

This is one of those things I often hear but that seems to have two distinct opinions. My understanding is that the trub can lead to off flavors

What off flavors? Autolysis? There is a greater chance of being trampled to death by a unicorn than this. I have a braggot that sat on the yeast cake for 7 months in a plastic Ale Pail. It tastes freaking fantastic. I have a mead that has been on the yeast cake in a glass carboy for over a year and does not taste like anything I have read about autolysis off flavors.

In my experience I have repeatedly had better results from letting the beer sit on the yeast for 3 weeks. The specific exceptions to this are IPA and wheat beers (there may be a few more styles but I can not think of any atm). YMMV but I am NOT alone using this technique. I also, as previously mentioned, do not secondary unless I am adding something to it or for clearing wine the old fashion way.

NOTE: I am NOT SAYING THE BEER WILL BE DONE FERMENTING IN 3 WEEKS! 2 OR MORE HYDROMETER READINGS 24 HOURS OR MORE APART IS THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW.
(Bolded and underlined to stress this point and so that I am not causing confusion on best brewing practices.)

and that if you leave it in a plastic primary as CO2 production peters off, O2 can permeate through the plastic and oxidize your beer.

1st what does CO2 production have to do with oxygen permeation? nada. 2nd What I think you are trying to say is, "Plastic has a higher oxygen permeability than glass or stainless steel." this is possibly true. My rebuttal is,"Prove it to me in practical application not on paper." I have not only had a braggot in a plastic bucket on the yeast cake for 7 months but I currently have my very 1st sour going in a bucket (the same one the braggot lived in) and it has been there since January last year and will not be bottled until February right before a comp I go to. I am going to guess based on MY experience that there will be no oxidation issues and that it will score well as it will probably be the only sour there.

I always rack, and let it sit another 2 weeks or so, and then cold crash (Assuming I'm patient enough).

so your beer takes 4 weeks, has issues. My way the beer goes into the keg in 3 week, tastes great and is less work... Not trying to troll here just proving a point.

I guess if I use glass primaries I should be able to do it all in one...do you rack straight to the keg then after three weeks?

Unless I am doing a secondary, yes.

I am not saying, "You are brewing wrong" I am offering up a suggestion that quite possibly could help improve your brews. IMO using a secondary for clearing is only exposing your beer to something else that may infect it.

 

[Braufessor]

I would second the suggestion to go to starsan. Rinsing your iodine sanitizer off totally defeats the purpose of sanitizing in the first place. Clean with PBW (or oxy clean, etc) and rinse well. THEN sanitize with star san and DON'T rinse.
Also agree on the wort chiller. Clean/rinse it off well after each use. Before each use maybe hose it off quick with tap water. Put it in the pot of boiling wort with 15 minutes to go to steralize.

 

[SteelString_Will]

Yeah, the iodine rinse is probably not helping. Also, you can get astringency if your sparge water is too hot, has improper pH or if you over sparge while fly sparging. But, I'm not sure that this sounds like a problem for you.

Based on the information you've provided, it seems like fermentation temp is just a couple degrees too high. But, I'd double check the amount, pH and temp of your sparge water.

 

[rhad]

Zamial: Thanks a ton for the info and the opinions. You've convinced me to try it next time. Although, actually, the next brew will be a lager so I suspect I need to rack in that case... some other questions for you:

1) Do you scrape off the top layer of kreusen?
2) For a lager, can I rack to the keg and lager in it (one less transfer)?
3) You wrote, "1st what does CO2 production have to do with oxygen permeation? nada." Well, if CO2 is being produced actively effectively your beer is under mild pressure (even with the airlock) and oxygen ingress via the plastic (if actually possible) would be hampered accordingly. But I cannot state that as fact, just an educated guess.

As a general update....

Well, I'm an idiot and you guys are smart. The problem is most certainly the wort chiller. Why? Well I brew mead too and (naturally) I never use the wort chiller with mead. Hell, I usually don't bother putting it in the fermentation cooler (which is saying a lot since I live in Houston).

The mead has no such off-flavors. None. The only common difference is that one uses the chiller, the other does not. (Assuming that my steep temps are, as I said, <160F, which barring something crazy they most certainly are.)

I spent a good two hours today soaking that sucker in acetic acid and eventually going to brasso. It was mega-tarnished. I intend to starsan before I use it again as well (and wipe it down mucho to get the brasso off). To confirm this theory my next batch will be chilled with ice only. I'll update in late November or thereabouts depending on my schedule.

 

[Zamial]

I would either let the krausen drop or if it is not that type of yeast rack from under it.

I have only done 1 lager and I filtered it under pressure when I transferred it so I have no great advice on that. I lagered mine in the serving keg.

 

[rhad]

One last thing Zamial....as someone with a lot of relatives in WI, your signature is AWESOME.