Idiotic/useless BJCP competition feedback

[MVKTR2]

I'm not a huge competitor in beer comps but when I do send beer in it is because I want useful feedback.

I sent 5 beers to a recent contest. My package was misplaced in the storage refrigerator and 2 of my beers missed being judged in their flights before the package was found. Once found one beer was judged seperately and showed rather average. This is a beer that was just past it's prime but finished 3rd in a BOS round just a few months ago. That irked me a bit but mistakes happen and for all I know the beer had degraded/had a bad cap, or something... que sera sera. The other beer I got a refund on and was told it was misplaced or some such. Mistakes happen and they handled all that as best they could.

Now for the actual problem. I entered a 2.3% abv low alc Belgian Blond as a Belgian experimental beer in category 34C. Obviously the point is to have a tasty 2.3% LOW ALCOHOL beer. A bjcp sanctioned judge comments that the beer needs more alcohol. An Imp. Stout is said to be 'light bodied' by two non-sanctioned judges ... the beer had a final gravity of 1.028 and can barely be more chewy. One entry was judged a 39 by the bjcp judge and a 31 & 32 by the 2 novice judges with several comments that were quite opposite. There were other smaller issues but this was generally the most disappointing comp entry experience I've had. At a cost of $55 for entry fees plus shipping, though a generous refund was given for the mixup, it is nice to get useful feedback. I simply got short non-detailed responses from all but 2 judge sheets.

Just wanted to complain a bit. On that note anyone have local comps with a high % of bjcp certified judges?

 

[bob1852]

It's my experience that when you get the feedback you're expecting or want, it's a great comp with great judges. And when you get the feedback you don't expect or want, it's a crappy comp with bad judges....

*shrug*

 

[C-Rider]

I had a RIS that took a second place last summer. So I saved 6 bottles and sent two off last month to a different contest. did not place, as a matter of fact it scored 5 points less this time. Hmmmm I thought an RIS would improve w/age. LOL

 

[Paps]

Start a brew club where everyone brings in samples and have an anonymous sheet where people can leave feedback. Works much better that way and doesn't cost you a thing but your time and beer.

 

[jwalk4]

I wouldn't sweat it. It is nice that you got a refund and there will always be other comps.

As for the imperial stout thing though, the judges don't know what the fg of your beer is, and knowing could skew your perception. Thats why the brulosophy guys always warn against that kind of data. In addition, mouthfeel doesn't always translate to fg. The judges tasted thin, so they called it thin.

I hope you continue to enter comps. I think they are great fun, but I wouldn't read tooooo much into it.

 

[kombat]

Sounds like a relatively immature competition. It's great that they're trying to get competitions going, and hopefully it will mature with time, but bigger/better competitions will have more organized stewarding (the misplaced entries), and will attract more BJCP-certified judges. The one beer should not have been scored both 39 and 31 - judges are supposed to commiserate and come to an agreement on their scores where they differ by no more than 5-7 points. Additionally, good BJCP judges will completely fill your judging scoresheet with comments, and not leave blank lines. Finally, experienced judges will provide better feedback than the novice ones, so I'd weigh their comments more heavily than those from the inexperienced judges. Again, hopefully with time, your region will gain more BJCP-certified judges and become more experienced at managing competitions. Don't give up. Heck, you could even become BJCP-certified yourself and volunteer to judge next year. It'd also be a great way to learn how to improve your own beer.

 

[madscientist451]

At a cost of $55 for entry fees plus shipping, though a generous refund was given for the mixup, it is nice to get useful feedback. I simply got short non-detailed responses from all but 2 judge sheets.

Just wanted to complain a bit. On that note anyone have local comps with a high % of bjcp certified judges?

Competitions have their place, but the fact is everyone has different tastes and different likes/dislikes. I've been to highly rated brewpubs and dislike half of the beers they make, I'm wondering, what are they thinking serving this? But to the brewer, it tastes fine. So to each his own. Unless money is no object, skip the competitions and take your brew to your local homebrew club meetings, ask for suggestions and have a good time.

 

[dmtaylor]

Judges usually suck, and it seems to have gotten even worse in recent years. That's why I rarely enter competitions anymore. Sad truth. And being a Certified judge myself, it's also kind of ironic. Except I obsess over beer and homebrewing probably 50 times as much as any other judge I've seen.

 

[mwilcox]

Feedback on a friend's impy stout said "needs more barleywine"...

As for "thin" mouthfeel on stouts, this happens all the time. They read "very full" in the guidelines, say "well I've had fuller than this, so it isn't enough." Often times they seem to looking for heavy whipping cream. Stouts are one of the few areas I feel a calibration beer can help remind judges it's a beer, not a milkshake.

A few months can certainly degrade a beer that was formerly great, so I don't see any issues there. Judging something experimental like the low abv Belgian will be hit and miss but they should have done better than that. What else did they say about it?

 

[dmtaylor]

Sounds like a relatively immature competition. It's great that they're trying to get competitions going, and hopefully it will mature with time, but bigger/better competitions will have more organized stewarding (the misplaced entries), and will attract more BJCP-certified judges. The one beer should not have been scored both 39 and 31 - judges are supposed to commiserate and come to an agreement on their scores where they differ by no more than 5-7 points. Additionally, good BJCP judges will completely fill your judging scoresheet with comments, and not leave blank lines. Finally, experienced judges will provide better feedback than the novice ones, so I'd weigh their comments more heavily than those from the inexperienced judges. Again, hopefully with time, your region will gain more BJCP-certified judges and become more experienced at managing competitions. Don't give up. Heck, you could even become BJCP-certified yourself and volunteer to judge next year. It'd also be a great way to learn how to improve your own beer.

Bingo. It helps if you become a judge yourself so that you are more readily capable of detecting the differences between good judges and morons. There is a bit of gray in between, but for the most part it's one or the other. I keep a list of the comps that tend to have the best judges and that's helped me to gain somewhat better overall feedback. Whenever I enter a new competition (rarely anymore), it seems it's been worse than 50/50 odds that I'll receive very useful feedback. As long as you set your expectations very low, and as long as you enter each and every beer into at least 3 different competitions, you're more likely to gain the feedback that you want and need. Unfortunately it just costs 3 times as much then too. And it shouldn't, dammit. I could go on and on about this..........................

 

[Minky]

I too have been frustrated by some of the judges comments in the competitions I have entered. As long as humans are judging, though, it will always be the case. Like it or not, personal preference sometimes plays a part in determining your score, although it shouldn't.

I believe that, if your beer is within the guidelines, it should be judged on its own merits. Last year, I entered a 50-ish IBU pale ale in both the American Pale Ale and American IPA categories just for fun. Surprisingly, I scored rather well in the IPA category ("A good example of the style"). I scored lower in the PA category ("Should have been dry-hopped"). It actually had been dry-hopped! A personal preference for more hop flavor or aroma should not color the judge's critique of the beer.

I don't think I would make a good beer judge, especially if I had to judge sweet, malty beers or any sour beers.

 

[aprichman]

IMO there is a serious lack of quality judges in the homebrewing community. BJCP is a decent benchmark but doesn't substitute for actual sensory training. Even with sensory training there's no guarantee that the judges are any good. I've had classmates @ OSU who went through sensory training and couldn't properly perceive off flavors like diacetyl, DMS, etc.

Some people are just awful at sensory evaluation and need to be screened out of a panel.

 

[Dmlsys23]

I too have been frustrated by some of the judges comments in the competitions I have entered. As long as humans are judging, though, it will always be the case. Like it or not, personal preference sometimes plays a part in determining your score, although it shouldn't.

I believe that, if your beer is within the guidelines, it should be judged on its own merits. Last year, I entered a 50-ish IBU pale ale in both the American Pale Ale and American IPA categories just for fun. Surprisingly, I scored rather well in the IPA category ("A good example of the style"). I scored lower in the PA category ("Should have been dry-hopped"). It actually had been dry-hopped! A personal preference for more hop flavor or aroma should not color the judge's critique of the beer.

I don't think I would make a good beer judge, especially if I had to judge sweet, malty beers or any sour beers.

The bit about your PA needing to be dry hopped is bullcrap. The judges are not supposed to make any assumptions about your brewing process or ingredients for this very reason. Any judge that does needs some refresher training in how to fill out a scoresheet.

 

[Dmlsys23]

Forgot to mention, I saw this on the BJCP FB page and thought of this thread. I feel bad for the guy who got this feedback! View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1458846631.179422.jpg

 

[dmtaylor]

Forgot to mention, I saw this on the BJCP FB page and thought of this thread. I feel bad for the guy who got this feedback! View attachment 346582

This judge was poking fun more at the stupidity of having a line to fill out for bottle "comments" than he was poking any fun at the entrant. Waste of space on the form IMHO -- I mean, who cares what the bottle looks like. You could argue that there should be a checkbox to look for "ring around the collar" which could be a sign of potential infection, and maybe a second box for "lots of sediment", but if neither of those is the case then there's really not much else that needs to be said. I hate people who say "short fill" or "overfill". BJCP does not teach people the definition of over or under filling. As long as there's beer in there, then who the hell cares! Stupid part of the form IMHO.

 

[Qhrumphf]

This judge was poking fun more at the stupidity of having a line to fill out for bottle "comments" than he was poking any fun at the entrant. Waste of space on the form IMHO -- I mean, who cares what the bottle looks like. You could argue that there should be a checkbox to look for "ring around the collar" which could be a sign of potential infection, and maybe a second box for "lots of sediment", but if neither of those is the case then there's really not much else that needs to be said. I hate people who say "short fill" or "overfill". BJCP does not teach people the definition of over or under filling. As long as there's beer in there, then who the hell cares! Stupid part of the form IMHO.

Eh. Severe overfill and severe underfill are both worth noting and I do so in addition to neck rings and sediment. And I'll also note there if the bottle was a gusher, or bottles/caps that break the rules (labeling, marked caps, etc).

Also, as already said, if your judges were more than 7 points apart they are not doing their job and I would complain.

After too many wacky results (a beer that won several medals and usually scored 38-40 got a medal in one comp and a 19 for an alleged infection the next weekend, never tasted an infected bottle in the entire 10 gallon batch, another that got a couple golds and scores into the low 40s that got a 19 at NHC last year for alleged fusels, highest judge was recognized on that flight, I was FURIOUS), I decided to stop entering. And then I changed my mind and have three different comps I'm entered in in the next couple weeks (two locals plus NHC).

I'm a Certified judge myself (that hopefully once I get my exam results back and a few more points clear the system, will be a National judge), and I can safely say that outside of the big styles (read: IPA), most even Certified judges have no clue what they're talking about. I keep telling myself to stop entering Bitters and Milds because most judges do not know how to judge them properly (have to have high ranking judges who've either actually had examples or know how to judge a beer they haven't had, and seldom do you get those in most comps I've entered).

 

[mongoose33]

Competitions have their place, but the fact is everyone has different tastes and different likes/dislikes. I've been to highly rated brewpubs and dislike half of the beers they make, I'm wondering, what are they thinking serving this? But to the brewer, it tastes fine. So to each his own. Unless money is no object, skip the competitions and take your brew to your local homebrew club meetings, ask for suggestions and have a good time.

I have had the same experience. There are certain styles I really do not care for, but I can recognize good examples of the style. Then there are others where I have trouble figuring out why they bothered to put it on tap.

Had a local craft brew 'bar' here for a while--ambiance was terrible (metal folding chairs at a diner-height counter--that was the "bar"), and every beer, to my taste, was overcarbonated. I couldn't get past the bubbles to the flavor.

One of my friends thought some of the beer was great. To this day I don't know to which he was referring.

I'm thinking, though, that my tastes were more indicative. That local "bar" is no more.

 

[MVKTR2]

The biggest crap-shoot categories are easily the specialty open to interpretation categories. You get things like the low alc beer feedback I got or a thai tom gah inspired beer I did that was very nice that all the judges commented was very nice and had no off-flavors etc yet didn't score well. Obviously it is somewhat subjective category and that is okay.

Every competition I've entered no matter how well or poor I do usually offers useful feedback. There was simply hardly anything useful other than 1, maybe 2 sheets from 4 beers judged, which is a problem. I'm a total homebrew nerd with fair-to-good sensory perception, very sensitive to diacetyl, know fruity esters vs fruity hop oils, know the difference between esters/phenolics, etc. I've judged official events as a novice judge and have passed the online portion of the bjcp exam with little more than a few hours of reading the guidelines the day before. It is simply frustrating to get nothing useful for your troubles, and frankly unacceptable. Well I shouldn't say nothing useful, I did get consistent feedback that one of my brews was too bitter for style which I know is related to the water profile I used. Not one scoresheet came back with a score lower than 30, this isn't about bad feedback on the beer, it is frustration with bad feedback. (if you follow that )

I have zero problems with a beer scoring poorly, bad bottles happen, judges have bad days, I have bad days, I don't make great beer all the time, etc... there are simply a lot of reasons to explain it. There however is little excuse for a lack of effort when filling out a scoresheet. Here are two examples of the feedback I got from this competition:

For the imperial stout, Appearance - 'Black', that's it, the entire commentary on appearance which got a 3/3.

A different judge for the imp. stout, Aroma - 'Metallic', that is the full response. Then for flavor I got this descriptive gem, 'sweetness, slight brandywine character' as the whole response.

 

[Kharnynb]

This is why i'll never be a judge, i'm just not good at describing beyond very basic notes and if i like it or not....

 

[bobeer]

BJCP is overrated imo. We're learning how to judge according to the bjcp 2015 styles at my homebrew club and a lot of the categories are so bass-akwards it's crazy. Plus I hardly brew to traditional style guidelines anyway. I do sometimes but I like to throw a twist on my beers which doesn't play too well with bjcp.

I have gotten much better feedback from my homebrew club than I've ever gotten from a competition. We had a scientist from a local yeast lab come to my brewclub and give us a little rundown about how he cultivates new yeast strains and how the whole industry works. He tasted a beer I brought that I used his yeast for and gave me some of the best feedback I've gotten to date. Being part of a club is much more beneficial than entering your beer into competitions.
Competitions can be fun but I'd whether your expectations and assume you're going to get crappy feedback and write the money it costs off as paying for the anticipation of hearing back. That way it'll be a nice surprise when you get a decent score sheet. Brew on!