I wanna start backwards

[titleist]

Evening folks!

I'm new, never brewed a batch in my life, and I wanna start from the pro tee because I have enough time to invest in this right the first time around.

I wanna start with equipment first (backwards), pricing freezers and going straight to kegging as I'm lazy and don't wanna spend all my time bottling beer.

From the top I'm thinking building a good size keezer that'll hold six cornys, 4 for the most beers I'd be likely to have in circulation at any time and 2 for parties where I wanna throw lemonade/tea or sangria out the other 2 taps.

From the equipment side, is it necessary to separately regulate each tank for beer or can I just split off the tank regulator to each beer keg, assuming I'm just going to carb them all the same?

Also, although not beer, if serving a non carbed beverage off the same system would I then need a separate regulator of lower pressure to serve that so it doesn't carb?

Thanks

 

[BeerGrylls]

Hello and welcome to HBT! You have many fellow Chicagoans on this site, so you'll be in familiar company. I wouldn't exactly say that you're wanting to start backwards as you say. It just sounds like you want to sink money into some proper equipment at the outset. While I don't think this is bad, just keep in mind that a lot of people start small (think home brewer's equipment kit) in the event that they find that they either don't like the hobby, or they are discouraged by initial poor performance. Spending lots of money doesn't mean you'll make good beer.

If you were fishing for advice, I'd say rather than spending lots of money, instead spend lots of time. Go buy John Palmer's How to Brew book and read it. Then read it again. Lurk on this site. Ask questions. watch youtube videos. Plan your approach. Try to focus on making great beer, the rest will follow.

 

[ryansanders]

Although separate regulators are not necessary, if you want to serve non carbed drinks from the same tank, what choice do you have but to have multiple regulators. In practice, you'd probably have most beers sitting at the same pressure and could get away with one regulator, but mix some for stuff into the equation and you'll need more granular control.


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[Devilsnight]

Also, although not beer, if serving a non carbed beverage off the same system would I then need a separate regulator of lower pressure to serve that so it doesn't carb?

Thanks

Don't think thats possible.. Gatorade from the gas station soda fountain comes to mind. If its Co2 pressurized it's gonna carbonate, right? even at very small pressure levels.

I don't wont to talk you out of this but, perhaps you should try brewing before you dive head first into all the equipment. If you have the will your gonna do it but, there's definately alot of learning too.

 

[BigFloyd]

Welcome. I would suggest seeing if you can brew some good beer before you figure out advanced ways to dispense it. Beer is easy to make. Brewing good or even excellent beer requires extra effort and patience. Nothing wrong with going straight into kegging, but you want quality stuff to go into those kegs.

Spend some of you gear money of a fermenter fridge/freezer with a digital controller. It'll be the best brew gear money you'll ever spend.

 

[Doctor_M]

Nothing wrong with going all in right off the break, it's basically what I did. Answer these questions and I will post my advice. Question one is do you find yourself diving head first into a lot of your hobbys? Question two is how often do you quit said hobby within short time? Question three is do you mind whether you lose money when you quit said hobby or does it not really matter because you have a good amount of disposable income? Ultimately how much money are you comfortable spending? Are you pretty handy at building/ fixing things yourself?You can easily spend the amount of a nice used car if you want all higher end equipment... If you are able to build things and even better work with electricity you can save a decent amount of money.

Until you answer those questions I will say I second the tip on looking into a fermentation chamber or chambers before worrying about a keezer to dispense from.

Oh and fyi lazy and homebrewing don't mix to well if you plan on brewing good beer, there's a lot to do besides the actual brewing part. Hopefully you really enjoy cleaning!

 

[IvanTheTerribrew]

I'm no expert but as far as getting liquid to come out of a keg without using carbonation (which is what you'd want because even a little bit of CO2 would go into suspension) you would want to have it feed by gravity. Just like when we use an auto siphon. I would think if you could have a way to have your specific kegs higher than the tap then when you open the tap it would flow due to gravity. One way this could maybe be done and have it cooled is building a jockey box type setup or just putting then in a big bucket filled with some ice water. Just an idea.


- ISM NRP

 

[Homercidal]

You *could* maybe find a way to serve your drink from inside a plastic bag, like a wine box. You could put a weight of some sort on top of the bag and the pressure would push it out a faucet. Gravity could be easier, but the hard part would be finding a place to put it. Inside a freezer would be hard because in order to serve the faucet would need to be near the ground...

I think if you could find a reasonable plastic bag, say a food-grade bag, then you could easily fashion a spout and tubing to run to the faucet. Rig it all up in a box of some sort (I'm picturing a simple wooden box) with a follower on top and some weight to apply pressure.

I commend your wanting to start big, but there is danger in spending a bunch of money and then deciding you don't really like what you have. So I'd hit the book, so to speak, maybe do a bunch of online research into the different methods and equipments, and then go for it.

There are a ton of different Keezer designs, from a simple Craigslist freezer with temp controller, to the same with integrated STC-1000 controller, to fancy re-painted units with team logos, to old fashioned fridges restored to new condition, to freezers with oak paneling to make them look like furniture.

And then for brewing itself, there are numerous kinds of rigs utilizing numerous methods of mashing, boiling, etc. Picking one that doesn't work good for you could be a costly mistake. Then again, people make great beer using all of them, so it's possible that you could get used to it if you had to.

If it were me, and I weren't afraid of spending a little money to get started, I'd find a kegerator design I liked and go for it. And for the brewing, start with a basic Cooler Mash Tun and buy a NICE kettle. The cooler is a cheap(ish) way to try the different mashing techniques, and the kettle will always be useful for any of the setups you decide to use permanently. You can add an electric element to it if you wish, or fire it with gas.

Most of all, HAVE FUN!

 

[Homercidal]

Another idea for the uncarbed drink is to build an "extension" onto the kegerator. The extension could be built very tall so that I corney keg would fit above the faucet height. Then you fill the corney with the drink, turn it upside down, and there is your gravity feed. Of course you'd want to swap the QD's on the liquid and gas posts, and you would need to supply a VERY light amount of CO2 to replace the drink that comes out, but it's perfectly doable.

Or, you could maybe find a proper sized mini fridge and do the same thing, but keep it as a separate unit from the kegerator.

 

[thrashandburn]

In regards to the uncarbed beverages, you could connect the gas to the keg to serve and when you're done serving, take off the disconnect and bleed out the excess pressure so it wont carbonate. I think that would work anyway. You might have oxidation issues though as the absence of C02 will leave oxygen in the headspace.

 

[titleist]

Wow, thanks for all your input guys. I'll try and reply to all questions asked and hopefully that'll help other opinions.

DoctorM: I did wine a few years back and went all in as my neighbor does every year. His wine is terrible, but I wanted to start the hobby and went with him to a seasonal trailerload dealer who parks by a ballpark every year and bought 24 crates of Merlot and went big right off the bat. As you can imagine, the wine tasted like garbage because the grapes were garbage. Tasted like my neighbor's but more alchohol because I put proper yeast in whereas he just lest wild yeast run wild. So I had several gallons of terrible wine I had to make sangria with, and that hobby stopped. I still have a great ph meter, several large carboys and other odds and ends that translate to beer. Part of THAT debacle was we weren't wine drinkers but thought we' get into it, which we never have. Enjoy wine, just not enough to make it anymore. Also tried mead making, which went well we just don't drink mead much. Another fling I suppose. The one thing that DOES stay constant is we do drink beer and have since we were legal, that will never stop unless it's medically necessary so I figure we'll drink what we make and keep drinking it rather than losing interest because we just lost interest in drinking it. Question 2, don't have a lot of hobbies to quit other than wine. Golfed for years, bought pro equipment, then ran out of time to play up to the level I once attained. Still will play when I get the time so that equipment is still good and useable. Question 3, I don't mind putting money in and losing interest. We have enough to easily cover this hobby so the money at this point is no problem for whatever we want to do. I already have more than enough carboys & locks, ph meter, CO2 tank & reg from saltwater tank. O that one also fell by the wayside, mostly because a friend's kid came by and tried cleaning the tank with the magnet cleaner and scratched the inside up to no end. We can always use the freezer for food, so other than a few cornys that won't break my bank and some hardware, maybe a good stainless pot I don't see this as much money at all for us, don't mind if I quit. But the thing is, a lot of beers are drinkable in a short time, which helps. Having 3 or 4 cornys can help keep us stocked in beer year round fairly quickly.

And if all else fails I have a neighbor that'll help me get through 5 gallons at a patch long before it loses it's quality.

As far as brewing good brew, I'm extremely meticulous so cleanliness shouldn't be a problem, wasn't with the wine although I know beer is less alchohol. And since I'm so meticulous I follow directions well so I'm hoping I'll have a good go from the start if I start with easier batches first.

As for kegging I just see it as less work than bottling and no glass to mess with, no bottle caps to constantly buy either, plus I can carb easier than the bottle method so I figured that'll help me keep going on the hobby, making it as easy as possible.

BTW I have John's book. I have likely most all books I could ever want on the subject including many that go far into the hobby from a scientific standpoint that I don't need at this point.

I have a separate small fridge that holds a 6 gallon carboy perfectly so I can ferment one at time in that I suspect.

I've seen a few youtubes on the keezer which is what got me started on that idea. Saw billybrews which looks awesome although smaller than what I want, love the black and wood thing he does but I'm thinking the 14.8 route and I can't find a black one anywhere.

I'm definitely going to keep batches at 5 gallons for a while. If I'm doing a party that year in summer I can always do a 10 but I've never needed more beer than that at one time so I can safely say I won't be buying a high end fermenter, just carboys and a fridge.

I think the carbed info is good, makes sense. If it's not left on pressure for a week then it should have no or very little carb yes?

Already contemplating unlocking the trial of BeerSmith for this although it seems far more in depth that I might need by just following recipe instructions at the moment.

 

[BeerGrylls]

Good responses, I say dive in! Learning through experience is the (second) best part of the hobby.

Oh and side note, you can get spray cans of black appliance paint, that's how my ugly almond-colored freezer became beautiful. A couple cans'll do ya.

 

[ryansanders]

How about just getting a small cylinder of oxygen and pressurize the non carbed kegs with that at a low serving pressure of like 5psi? Not super sure if oxidation is really an issue on liquids like that.. If you are drinking them as regularly as you would out of a pitcher in the fridge, I would think that you should be fine?


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[MrNatural]

Also, although not beer, if serving a non carbed beverage off the same system would I then need a separate regulator of lower pressure to serve that so it doesn't carb?

Thanks

Something like this would probably do the trick. Delivers 4 oz/second. Designed for tea and wine. Still would have the multiple regulator issue, these work on 20-80 psi. They also work on compressed air (filtered) - cheaper than CO2.
http://www.sodadispenserdepot.com/Documents/Flojet-T5000-BIB-Syrup-Pump-Specifications.pdf
They also offer used ones for half the price............
http://www.chicompany.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=355
or here:
http://www.sodadispenserdepot.com/syruppumps.html

 

[TBaGZ]

I would get at minimum a dual body reg, but if you have the money, go balls deep and get a reg bank and have one for each tap. That way you can serve different beer styles at their correct carbonation levels.

 

[titleist]

well I just factored in a 6 port splitter for them all. My thinking on the non carbed bevs is that it's only a rare event so they'll be on there for a day or two at most before burning out and having to put more drink in anyways.

I figure I'll just get the 6 reg system and find a way to put that on the outside of the square along with the tank. I figure I can send the lines to the distributor on the outside then send the lines inside to the kegs. My thought is to keep the regs and distributor outside the cold humid environment thinking they'll be less prone to failure if kept room temp and dry.

I'm also trying to think of the best way to incorporate an extra corny with line cleaner in it that I can just switch into the beer lines off the CO2.... anyone done this? Can line cleaner sit in a corny for months on end?

 

[microbusbrewery]

For non-carbed beverages I'd try plain old nitrogen at low pressure with a short serving line. I believe that's how wine is served on tap. The nitrogen isn't very soluble so it doesn't go into solution like CO2...it's really just there to push the liquid. Upside is you won't have oxidation issues like you would using compressed air. Downside, it's an extra tank and regulator, but you said you want to go big. I'm not sure what the cost is to get a nitrogen tank filled,

 

[lukebeulah]

I think that starting out by focusing on the basics of brewing is the biggest part of brewing. Because I know that most of us have had batch in the first year of brewing that had issues. This is where you learn how to make beer- and the mistakes teach you how to make good beer. Plus bottling helped me learn the fundamentals of the process- and appreciate the work that goes into it. And even when kegging, you dont shave a whole lot of time from mash in to first pint- maybe a week. Good beer is still going to take at least 4 to 6 weeks.
Agreed on Palmer's book, It was the second book that I read - after The Joy of Homebrewing- and read them both twice.
Welcome to a rewarding and usually costly hobby- and good luck!!!

 

[titleist]

If I did the nitrogen route I think I'd have to use a separate distribution dedicated to the non carbed stuff. Now I'm thinking maybe I'd keep the non carbed bevs around all the time and just fill pitchers for the fridge.

I can say after going through a few books, I'm still going through Palmer's book at the moment after suggestion, studying winemaking books and doing a batch there helped me understand the basics of cleanliness, yeast, temperatures and grape fermentation. Where I feel least confident is mashing grains, sparging and etc. Those extra steps I need a better handle on at the moment. I understand the point of sugar but it's more complicated than wine since grapes just have the necessary sugar in them rather than having to crush & boil and watch temperatures and quickly cool etc. That's what I'm focusing on at the moment now, learning the why's of mashing, boiling and cooling.

Seems like a lot of the rest of it reflects winemaking concepts such as racking off the lees, secondary fermentation.

My first thoughts were to just follow a recipe rather than attempt to do it by education. Experience in the end is worth as much as book learning. I did a ton of booking before the winemaking and it kept me on the edge of constantly trying to tweak things, by not recognizing some of the things that came up and having the experience to know the difference.

I will say I intend to keep cleanliness to the max for beer though, so to that end I think I'm gonna just bite it and buy a few new kegs in the hopes the welds are cleaner and the chance of bacteria accumulation that gets missed by sanitation is kept to a minimum.

Unless someone can convince me used kegs are no better in the weld or sanitation department. I've seen a few folks complain about even the newer kegs having garbage welds in them, that's my greatest fear is crap welds.

Anyone ever get any of those AEB italian kegs with the rubber top and bottom new?

 

[Homercidal]

Sounds like you are ready to just go for it. As for your old wine, I hope you saved it. Some nasty-ass wines improve a LOT over a few years of time. Especially if the biggest flaw was excess alcohol. It takes experience to know how a wine will taste a few years after making it, just from tasting the grapes.

Kegging is absolutely a time and effort saver if you go through beer quickly. And that was a good call on the nitrogen serving still drinks. I completely forgot about that. You could also only pressurize that line when serving. Hit the gas, pour a drink, shut the gas off, purge the pressure. It's more work, but it would keep the drink still (At least as far as you can sense.)

 

[Ancient_Hopus]

I would suggest doing some Extract batches, before you jump to all grain. Extract are mostly dummy proof and you learn the process of what we need to do. I'm going on my 6th extract batch and still learning.

All Grain starts this summer for me. Do you live in the city or burbs?

 

[Doctor_M]

Lots of good advice in this thread, this is why HBT rocks :rockin:

If it were me and I wanted to go big definitely go with both the co2 and nitrogen setup. Its gonna cost extra money but it will accomplish exactly what you are trying to do. And you will be most of the way to having a nitro setup for stouts.

I haven't seen you mention what kind of brewing you intend to start with, a lot of people will tell you to go extract first and there is nothing wrong with extract beer but personally I think its a waste of time IF ultimately you want to end up brewing all grain. This is something you need to figure out in order for more constructive advice to be given.

Oh and on the keg question theres nothing wrong with used or reconditioned kegs IF they hold pressure, I have bought kegs online before even from reputable vendors that claim they have been pressure tested only to find out that they in fact don't hold pressure. Also if you want to keep a pipeline going and always have 4-6 beers on tap I highly recommend you buy double that amount in kegs. This way you can be serving beers and at the same time carbonating and conditioning others that will replace those beers as soon as the keg kicks. I guess part of that depends on how much beer is consumed via you and your friends but for me this is what I have found to be true. I have quite a bunch of friends that enjoy my beer and I too am guilty of a large majority of the consumption as well.

Let us know what kind of brewing you intend on doing right of the gates and we will be able to provide more insight on what kind of gear you should be looking at.

Oh and it already seems like you've made up your mind on kegging vs. bottling but heres a gem that was closed (rightfully so) on a debate on the matter.... if you read it I am pretty sure you will know where I stand on the matter https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/who-prefers-bottling-over-kegging-450557/

 

[Newsman]

I made some cider and wanted it *lightly* carbed, so I only put it on the CO2 about 10PSI. It came out pretty much still.

 

[ryansanders]

Yeah, 10 is just about the pressure at which you can keep co2 in suspension without further carbing things. I would think leaving a still liquid on less than 10 psi would effectively do no carbing.


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[titleist]

I would suggest doing some Extract batches, before you jump to all grain. Extract are mostly dummy proof and you learn the process of what we need to do. I'm going on my 6th extract batch and still learning.

All Grain starts this summer for me. Do you live in the city or burbs?

Yah I figured Extract would be simpler.... so far what I've read ph doesn't seem to every show up in the few recipes I've read. My wife's a Hacker Pschorr Weisse fan, has been for a while now. Just picked up another 12, and at a buck a bottle she started easing into finding a clone, which I did through Beersmith, which has a great conversion function in it. On day one of first brew I'll have to get the license. I'm in the city, north.

Well my beer tastes change with the weather most of the time. If I broke it down I'd say I have a 1 in 10 chance of going stouts, there's a few I like but not enough to do 5 gallons at a time. I happen to work where Goose Island is and used to have access to some folks there, used to know a marketing manager there who was the best at showing subtle differences during the process... great guy don't know if he's still there. BUT, after going through everything they had at the time I found myself favoring the Ales, Belgians from them mostly. The Goose favorite was Matilda, although on the lighter side of their ales I have to say the kegged 312 is great in summer, far better than the bottled 312.

So I'd say I'd like to find some decent light and amber ales to start if I can find a extract for them, from what I've seen so far the Belgians are not for beginners. And of course the wife loves the HS Weisse which I did find that conversion for. Then you have the summertime stuff like corona for the kids that really don't like beer but like the idea of beer.

So my first runs would be lighter ales, maybe some ambers. Not thinking of Lagers yet.

I'm in the process now of juggling getting a second home fixed from water damage, going through a work related injury although I still consider myself retired because I'm so close I can smell it, working on the basement in Chicago to finish that up from previous water damage, and putting together the keezer system on paper. I have surgery coming up so I'm gonna be down for a while but that's gonna help me read and focus on first batch brewing. I know Palmer's first brew is the pale ale... I'd like to find something cloned that I've tried and the wife and I will both enjoy so long as it's a simple first brew. I gotta finish this last book then go through recipes.

As for the nitro I would guess I don't need regs for those kegs because I'm just gonna go low anyway.... I'm gonna consider the pros and cons of a second gas setup just for the kiddie stuff because in the end we don't throw parties all the time, although up at the second home in the summer the neighbor's grandkids can come by and fill up when they want. I dunno about that part yet.