I hate lager yeast!

[Oldsock]

Sunday I brewed a double decocted SMaSH Pils with Weyermann Bohemian Pils and Saaz. It’s a beer I've been looking forward to brewing for a couple months now. With the complex mash and 105 minute boil the brew took about 8 hours.

On Wednesday night I had made a 2 qrt starter of Wyeast 2001 and left it at ambient basement temps (high 50s), after 48 hours with intermittent shaking there was still no activity. 12 hours later the first signs of fermentation were starting to show, but the aroma was off (fruity/spicy). The yeast had been sitting in my fridge for a couple months, so I was already a bit worried.

Not wanting to risk the beer, I ran out to the homebrew store on Saturday morning and bought tubes of WLP800 and WLP802 (one was best used of January the other February). I came home and made another 2 qrt starter (~1.040). I hadn’t seen much activity after 24 hours when I pitched the whole starter into the ~50 degree wort (I added ~1/2 tsp of Wyeast nutrient to the boil), but I wasn’t too worried since I know lager yeast can take some time to get rolling. I gave it a few minutes of shaking to aerate and then left it in a ~48 degree fridge.

It’s been 36 hours now, I’ve upped the temp to 55, but the gravity is still the same (1.052), and the pH is sitting around 5.0. Suggestions, ideas, thoughts, sympathy? I assume it’s cooked, so barring an change tonight I’m going to pitch a rehydrated pack of US-05.

 

[DrawTap88]

Patience. Lager yeast usually takes 72 hours before it shows signs of fermentation.

 

[motobrewer]

no activity, meaning no airlock activity?

did you aerate well? like, really well?

 

[HexKrak]

He actually took a grav reading moto. I know, it's hard to believe!

But my advice is still the same at least for 72+ hours. Sit on it and pray. You've done everything else you could reasonably do up to now and I bet it's getting ready to explode into fermentative action.

 

[Oldsock]

He actually took a grav reading moto. I know, it's hard to believe!

But my advice is still the same at least for 72+ hours. Sit on it and pray. You've done everything else you could reasonably do up to now and I bet it's getting ready to explode into fermentative action.

Thanks for the encouragement. I’m used to seeing activity in lagers before 24 hours when I pitch a large active starter (in this case though my starter wasn’t active). Plenty of O2 for both the starter and the wort initially, and I’ve been shaking the wort a couple times a day to introduce more oxygen and kick the yeast back into suspension.

Has anyone gotten a dead tube of White Labs recently? I was a bit worried when I opened them and got no CO2 hiss.

I’m hoping I’m wrong and that fermentation is going when I get home, but I’m doubtful. I’ll give it until tomorrow morning, then I’ll detour to a pils-ale.

 

[joety]

This is why I use Wyeast and not White Labs. For my last lager, I did a 4 qt starter, decanted, and warmed for maybe 4-6 hours after pulling from the fridge and decanting, and it took off within an hour or two at lager temps. With Wyeast you know your yeast is alive (or dead, if that's the case). Just sayin'.

 

[Oldsock]

This is why I use Wyeast and not White Labs. For my last lager, I did a 4 qt starter, decanted, and warmed for maybe 4-6 hours after pulling from the fridge and decanting, and it took off within an hour or two at lager temps. With Wyeast you know your yeast is alive (or dead, if that's the case). Just sayin'.

I started with Wyeast, but that starter never took off (well it did eventually, but it looked scummy and smelled off). The pack inflated slightly, but I only gave it a couple hours after smacking before pitching it into the starter wort. I ordered that pack two months ago from Northern Brewer, I didn’t make a note of the date on it though. I tend to like Wyeast as well, but in this case both labs failed me.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

He actually took a grav reading moto. I know, it's hard to believe!

Didn't need to imo. It's pretty easy to tell if a batch has started fermenting just by looking at it (not so much the case to see if it has finished fermenting). The reduced pH does seem to indicate that the yeast have done something.

I'd be careful about pitching ale yeast, if the lager yeast wakes up (which it probably will) it's probably gonna 'outrun' the ale yeast since it is working so far above it's typical temp range.

It's not unusual for lager yeast to smell a bit off, I would have just used the Wyeast starter (probably, I wasn't there to smell/see it). I've had some lager yeast smell very 'meaty' (which I thought was autolysis) but it made good beer (and so did the cake).

More O2 can lead to longer lag but rousing it can't hurt.

Maybe try W34/70 dry lager yeast but at some point throwing more yeast at it seems futile. Good luck.

 

[joety]

Understood, not saying either lab makes better yeast, but you knew you were taking a flyer with the Wyeast when you pitched, whereas you had no idea what you had with the White Labs vials. Obviously, in either case, the starter will give you some idea, but Wyeast still gives you more transparency into the viability of the yeast.

 

[Oldsock]

The reduced pH does seem to indicate that the yeast have done something.

I don't think the pH has dropped, isn't ~5.0 what you'd expect for post-boil wort?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I don't think the pH has dropped, isn't ~5.0 what you'd expect for post-boil wort?

I'd expect it to be a little higher (5.2-5.4) if you had good mash pH* but it depends.

* - for a Pils I would expect most homebrewer's mash pH to be a little higher than 'normal' but this was an assumption I probably shouldn't have made.

 

[Oldsock]

I'd expect it to be a little higher (5.2-5.4) if you had good mash pH* but it depends.

* - for a Pils I would expect most homebrewer's mash pH to be a little higher than 'normal' but this was an assumption I probably shouldn't have made.

My mash pH was ~5.3 at room temp (which is a bit low). I diluted my tap water with distilled, and added a small amount of Calcium Chloride and Gypsum to add some calcium back. I believe during the boil the pH tends to drop a couple points, but I didn’t actually measure it before pitching.

 

[markg388]

before you say screw it & pitch us-05, at least pitch a pack of saf-lager! that's the most consistently solid lager yeast i've ever used.

I had a lager once smell like feet after the d-rest was over and wind up among my cleanest batches, these yeasties are tricky little buggers with complex personalities.

 

[Hermit]

If you pitched the same day you made the starter, you didn't 'really' make a starter.

 

[Rundownhouse]

Has anyone gotten a dead tube of White Labs recently? I was a bit worried when I opened them and got no CO2 hiss.

I have, maybe 6 weeks ago. I had ten gallons of wort and planned on pitching harvested lager yeast for all of it. I got cold feet about my yeast and decided to pitch harvested yeast for 5g and went out and bought 4 vials of WL for the other 5g to pitch directly. The carboy with the vials never took off, verified with gravity readings, even after another aeration cycle about 60 hours after pitching. I ended up getting four more vials for free from the LHBS where I bought the first four - thanks, All Seasons! - and it took off within 24 hours.

Don't remember the WL strain off the top of my head, but I posted here about it so it should be easy to find.

 

[SwampassJ]

I would go for the dry lager yeast and pitch a packet or two if nothing is happening after 2-3 days.

I just did my first lager starter on Saturday, it didn't start doing anything but sitting on the bottom until Monday and today it is crashing so I can step it up to a gallon..

 

[Oldsock]

If you pitched the same day you made the starter, you didn't 'really' make a starter.

If that was directed at me, it was about 36 hours between making the starter and pitching. Not as much time as I normally like to give, but Sunday was the last chance I had to brew for a couple weeks. Still should have been enough time for the cells count to increase substantially.

I would go for the dry lager yeast and pitch a packet or two if nothing is happening after 2-3 days.

I ended up pitching the US-05 last night, I wouldn't have been able to get to the homebrew store until Thursday and I think that was longer than I was willing to wait.

 

[Oldsock]

After 24 hours at 55 F the US-05 was fermenting strong. Hopefully the batch will turn out alright.

 

[Yooper]

I'm looking forward to making a BoPils myself in the next few weeks- I have the Budvar strain from WL. (can't remember the number right now).

Did you do 100% pilsner malt and a double decoction? What are your IBUs? I never made one before, and I'm looking for some pointers.

 

[Oldsock]

I'm looking forward to making a BoPils myself in the next few weeks- I have the Budvar strain from WL. (can't remember the number right now).

Did you do 100% pilsner malt and a double decoction? What are your IBUs? I never made one before, and I'm looking for some pointers.

That was one of the strains that failed me.

Yeah just 10 lbs of Weyermann Boheimian Pilsner malt. I’m not sure if it was the floor malted variety or not ( http://www.weyermann.de/usa/produkte.asp?idkat=207&umenue=yes&idmenue=269&sprache=10 ), although I'd suspect the homebrew store would of said if it was the premo floor malted stuff. I mashed in for a quick protein rest in the mid 120s, quick infusion to get up to the low 140s, decocted to raise to the high 150s (actually the decoction only got me to the low 150s so I added more boiling water to get it the rest of the way), decocted to get to mash-out ~168. Essentially the Hochkurz Double Decoction from: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing (a worthwhile read).

For hops I went to ~40 IBUs with about an ounce added first wort, bittering, 25 min, and 5 min. That last addition isn’t traditional, apparently the last hop addition in Pilsner Urquell comes at 25 minutes: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html I wanted mine to be a bit hoppier in the nose, hopefully that will help to cover up the slightly more expressive ale yeast contribution.

Your water needs to be soft, so if you have a lot of carbonate dilute with some distilled or RO water. This can cause pH issues in the mash though, so make sure to add a bit of calcium and/or have some lactic acid on hand to adjust.

Hope that helps, good luck.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Boh Pils like Budvar is way more attenuated than Urquell (which is surprisingly low in attenuation, like ~70%). IMO, you won't ever get Urquell out of that yeast so I wouldn't even try and would shoot for the Budvar end of the spectrum. The two are not really that close even though they are the same style.

 

[2bluewagons]

My take on starters was that no matter ale or lager, they should be kept as room temp for maximum yeast growth. You are growing yeast, not making beer. A 36-hour starter at room temp certainly would have gotten through its growth stage, but at 50 degrees I don't know...

I also think that tasting or smelling of starters is given too large a role in determining the success of the yeast. An unhopped, oxygenated fermented liquid will not be very tasty and I have had a few starters that were a bit tart (esp. belgians) going in but made great beer on the other side.

Also, according to Mr Malty, your 2L starter was good if you used 2 tubes, otherwise starter should have been closer to 5L.

Full disclosure, I have no direct experience with lager yeast, so grain of salt...

 

[Yooper]

That was one of the strains that failed me.

Yeah just 10 lbs of Weyermann Boheimian Pilsner malt. I’m not sure if it was the floor malted variety or not ( http://www.weyermann.de/usa/produkte.asp?idkat=207&umenue=yes&idmenue=269&sprache=10 ), although I'd suspect the homebrew store would of said if it was the premo floor malted stuff. I mashed in for a quick protein rest in the mid 120s, quick infusion to get up to the low 140s, decocted to raise to the high 150s (actually the decoction only got me to the low 150s so I added more boiling water to get it the rest of the way), decocted to get to mash-out ~168. Essentially the Hochkurz Double Decoction from: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing (a worthwhile read).

For hops I went to ~40 IBUs with about an ounce added first wort, bittering, 25 min, and 5 min. That last addition isn’t traditional, apparently the last hop addition in Pilsner Urquell comes at 25 minutes: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html I wanted mine to be a bit hoppier in the nose, hopefully that will help to cover up the slightly more expressive ale yeast contribution.

Your water needs to be soft, so if you have a lot of carbonate dilute with some distilled or RO water. This can cause pH issues in the mash though, so make sure to add a bit of calcium and/or have some lactic acid on hand to adjust.

Hope that helps, good luck.

Thanks! For my last few decoctions, I've doing the rests at 132, 150, and 156 with a mash out either by decoction or infusion.

I'll be using 75% RO/25% my tap water, with a bit of CaCl2 to bring up the Ca slightly. I'll double check the mash pH, thanks for the tips!

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Full disclosure, I have no direct experience with lager yeast, so grain of salt...

Yes, fermenting a lager starter at room temp is fine/good but after a lager starter finishes fermenting it (ideally) needs to be refrigerated for a bit (~24 hours) before pitching, then pitched into cold wort.

 

[ghpeel]

Yes, fermenting a lager starter at room temp is fine/good but after a lager starter finishes fermenting it (ideally) needs to be refrigerated for a bit (~24 hours) before pitching, then pitched into cold wort.

What's the reason for that? To avoid a temperature shock if you throw 65F yeast into a 50F carboy of wort I assume?

 

[Yooper]

What's the reason for that? To avoid a temperature shock if you throw 65F yeast into a 50F carboy of wort I assume?

Well, you also want to decant the nasty oxidized spent wort, and since it was fermented warm (you're growing yeast, not making beer), it'd probably be estery besides.

I find that my best lager fermentations occur when pitching a HUGE amount of 47-48 degree yeast into 50 degree wort. That slightly higher temperature makes the yeast wake up and get going.

 

[passedpawn]

That was one of the strains that failed me.

Yeah just 10 lbs of Weyermann Boheimian Pilsner malt. I’m not sure if it was the floor malted variety or not ( http://www.weyermann.de/usa/produkte.asp?idkat=207&umenue=yes&idmenue=269&sprache=10 ), although I'd suspect the homebrew store would of said if it was the premo floor malted stuff. I mashed in for a quick protein rest in the mid 120s, quick infusion to get up to the low 140s, decocted to raise to the high 150s (actually the decoction only got me to the low 150s so I added more boiling water to get it the rest of the way), decocted to get to mash-out ~168. Essentially the Hochkurz Double Decoction from: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Decoction_Mashing (a worthwhile read).

For hops I went to ~40 IBUs with about an ounce added first wort, bittering, 25 min, and 5 min. That last addition isn’t traditional, apparently the last hop addition in Pilsner Urquell comes at 25 minutes: http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue5.3/urquell.html I wanted mine to be a bit hoppier in the nose, hopefully that will help to cover up the slightly more expressive ale yeast contribution.

Your water needs to be soft, so if you have a lot of carbonate dilute with some distilled or RO water. This can cause pH issues in the mash though, so make sure to add a bit of calcium and/or have some lactic acid on hand to adjust.

Hope that helps, good luck.

That is almost exactly the way I make my pilsner, process and ingredients. Except I do multiple infusions instead of decoctions. I've made a lot of pilsner. I made a batch about a month ago at 50 IBU, then last week 40 IBU. I like them a bit hoppier.

I'd suggest trying S-23 dry yeast. It takes off fast and makes a better pilsner for my tastes than the liquid yeasts. I've also tried W34/70, but the S-23 is best.

 

[Oldsock]

I had good luck with W34/70 in a smoked dunkel over the summer, but I wanted to go with a liquid strain for a super clean beer like this. I should of had a pack of it on hand for an emergency though. I'll grab a pack of S-23 for next time.