I am Confused!

[brew703]

Been reading alot about washing yeast and pitching from a slurry. I was all set to wash yeast from my next brew day (wyeast 2112).
After reading several posts here and online I am utterly confused. Seems like washing yeast is a no no and pitching from a slurry is more accepted.

For the experts, which is it? Seems like for every one post for washing yeast, there is 5 that say don't.

Being a new brewer, it is very difficult to determine what to do. Last think I want is to waste time or finding out my saved yeast is no good.

If a slurry is preferred, how do you do it? I've ready conflicting info and again I'm just confused.

 

[bragona71]

I have had success washing yeast, tutorial here.but what I find I do most often is buy a tube of fresh yeast, make a 2l starter crash it. decant and split it into 2 ,now save one and make a starter for my brew,now I have aprox the same amount in my fridge for next brew.then I do it again works for me and I don't have to take all the time to wash yeast

edit:link fixed

 

[Natdavis777]

I was yeast a lot and make starters from them with no issues. I typically get ~100 mL of compacted yeast in each pint jar when its all said and done. I then pull out a jar, use a yeast calc, and make a starter from that slurry.

 

[joshesmusica]

To answer your question, if you're really on the ball with being sanitary, yeast washing would technically be better. You're essentially washing away any leftover trub from the previous batch, and trying to end up with only the yeast. I think why it's often not recommended over just pouring the new wort on top of the fresh slurry is that about sanitation, and it takes more work. It's still not a ton of work, but more nonetheless. Just to stress the point one more time: with washing yeast it is very easy to introduce something off if you're not careful.

i have personally done yeast washing a few times. it works pretty well, but i would honestly recommend building an oversized starter over either yeast washing or using a slurry. it's going to likely be a cleaner, healthier yeast than either of those options.

 

[RmikeVT]

To help with the clarification:

Typically, I think yeast washing is used to save the yeast for a few weeks or months in a refrigerator, as opposed to going from fermenting one batch to the next batch as soon as the first batch is racked off the yeast. In addition, once yeast is washed brewers tend to make a starter before they pitch into another batch. Whereas, pitching slurry or pitching on top of a yeast cake is done when brewing back to back with the same yeast. I've read that it is better to take a measured amount of slurry and pitch into wort than to just pitch on top of the current yeast cake. The reason for this is to remove a lot the trub (dead yeast, fatty acids, break material, other particulates, etc.)

One thing you will learn about brewing is if you ask 10 brewers the same question you will get 12 different answers. As a new brewer you need to figure out what works for you and your system and take an approach that works for you. Each brewery (home and professional) are unique and have their own set of challenges.

You can also use this link to figure out how much slurry to pitch:
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

 

[brew703]

Thanks for the replies.
I think I am pretty anal about sanitation but being this is a new hobby for me there is a chance I could forget to sanitize something.

The frustrating part is all the different answers so all that does is confuse the crap out of someone more.

Guess I need to pick a way and stick with it.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I tried the yeast washing (okay, technically, it's "rinsing) thing on my first two brews, which was over 3 years ago and thought to myself, "self, there's got to be a better way." Turns out there is. As mentioned up-tread a ways, take some clean yeast and build a starter, then harvest a little bit of that starter into a clean, sanitized container to be used for another starter later. You'll have yeast that is just as clean, if not cleaner than washed yeast, that has never been through the stress of full-on fermentation, without any of the hassle of washing.

Pitching slurry also works just fine. If you're going to use it within about a month, just direct pitch.

Honestly, I can't ever see a reason to wash yeast. Even if I was starting with slurry and I wanted to get clean yeast from it, I'd pull about 1 tablespoon of slurry from the bottom (or top, if top cropping) of the fermenter and add it to 1/2 liter of starter wort, let it run on the stir plate for 24 hours, then pour it into a sanitized mason jar and stash it away in the fridge until I need to make a full-sized starter for a batch of brew. Saved, clean yeast will keep in the fridge for at least 6 months with no issues. I think the oldest yeast I've pulled from the fridge and built up starter from was 10 months old. No problems whatsoever.

 

[brew703]

Good info. Guess I need to read up on building a starter.
I probably brew a batch or two every other week and I really dont want to spend $7 for a vial or pack of liquid. Seems like a starter will be the way to go for me.

In making a starter, would you take the liquid yeast and mix with water or as LL Bean said use wort? I've made starters for bread but not for beer.

Instead of asking questions, I'll read up on making starters then post back if any questions.
Thanks for the info to those who replied.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Gotta use wort for a starter.

 

[user 213331]

To help with the clarification:

Typically, I think yeast washing is used to save the yeast for a few weeks or months in a refrigerator, as opposed to going from fermenting one batch to the next batch as soon as the first batch is racked off the yeast. In addition, once yeast is washed brewers tend to make a starter before they pitch into another batch. Whereas, pitching slurry or pitching on top of a yeast cake is done when brewing back to back with the same yeast. I've read that it is better to take a measured amount of slurry and pitch into wort than to just pitch on top of the current yeast cake. The reason for this is to remove a lot the trub (dead yeast, fatty acids, break material, other particulates, etc.)

One thing you will learn about brewing is if you ask 10 brewers the same question you will get 12 different answers. As a new brewer you need to figure out what works for you and your system and take an approach that works for you. Each brewery (home and professional) are unique and have their own set of challenges.
You can also use this link to figure out how much slurry to pitch:
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Truth!

 

[Calder]

I've washed yeast several times - a pain.

I do save some of my starter, but not for the next brew, but to save the yeast for about a year.

When I brew I minimize the 'gunk' going into the fermenter by staining the wort. This results in a 'cleanish' trub.

I save the cake in mason jars, and try and use within a month. I will straight pitch (no starter) the slurry into the next beer. I use about a third of the harvested cake. I have done this many times with no issues. This is by far the simplest thing to do (except maybe reusing the whole cake immediatly after bottling - not recommended).

 

[brew703]

Ok. I've read some info on starters. I have a smack pack Wyeast 2112 that will be used this weekend. Looks like this package will make a 1 liter starter, correct? If I wanted to make a bigger starter and use some this weekend and some the following weekend, would I make a 2L starter with the one smack pack and use half for each brew?
How do I maintain a starter for future use?
Sorry for the newbie questions.

 

[Natdavis777]

I tried the yeast washing (okay, technically, it's "rinsing) thing on my first two brews, which was over 3 years ago and thought to myself, "self, there's got to be a better way." Turns out there is. As mentioned up-tread a ways, take some clean yeast and build a starter, then harvest a little bit of that starter into a clean, sanitized container to be used for another starter later. You'll have yeast that is just as clean, if not cleaner than washed yeast, that has never been through the stress of full-on fermentation, without any of the hassle of washing.

Pitching slurry also works just fine. If you're going to use it within about a month, just direct pitch.

Honestly, I can't ever see a reason to wash yeast. Even if I was starting with slurry and I wanted to get clean yeast from it, I'd pull about 1 tablespoon of slurry from the bottom (or top, if top cropping) of the fermenter and add it to 1/2 liter of starter wort, let it run on the stir plate for 24 hours, then pour it into a sanitized mason jar and stash it away in the fridge until I need to make a full-sized starter for a batch of brew. Saved, clean yeast will keep in the fridge for at least 6 months with no issues. I think the oldest yeast I've pulled from the fridge and built up starter from was 10 months old. No problems whatsoever.

I have a question regarding the process of saving some yeast from the starter, as I would like to try this approach instead of washing. My question is, how much yeast do you typically save for a future starter (ie 25mL, 100mL, etc).

I ask because if you are only saving a small amount, say 25mL total compacted yeast, it sounds like one would have to do a larger starter, or a two step to achieve a certain pitch rate (I aim for 1mil/mL/P). When I wash my yeast, my end product in the pint sized mason jars is usually 100mL of compacted yeast. So I know I have roughly 120B cells (using Wyeasts 1.2bil/mL).

Again, I am all for trying this method, as it would save me time when it comes to washing. My main concern is the total volume procured from the starter.

Thanks

 

[LLBeanJ]

Ok. I've read some info on starters. I have a smack pack Wyeast 2112 that will be used this weekend. Looks like this package will make a 1 liter starter, correct? If I wanted to make a bigger starter and use some this weekend and some the following weekend, would I make a 2L starter with the one smack pack and use half for each brew?
How do I maintain a starter for future use?
Sorry for the newbie questions.

You can use a yeast calculator to figure out how big of a starter you need. Brewers Friend also has one.

The size is going to depend on the batch size and OG of the brews you intend to brew. Also, if I were going to brew back to back with the same yeast, I'd brew the lower OG brew first after making an appropriate sized starter, then wait 2 weeks to brew the next and pitch slurry from the first batch straight from the fermenter. I say two weeks because I only brew on weekends and it would take that long for the first brew to finish up and be ready to keg so I can access the yeast from the bottom. If I absolutely had to brew the 2nd batch one week after the first, I would harvest yeast from the krausen layer (I.e., top cropping) from the first and pitch that into the second. I wouldn't make 2 starters or make a double sized starter, as you can get definitely get two brews from one starter, though you can do that if you want. I'm just saying I personally wouldn't.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I have a question regarding the process of saving some yeast from the starter, as I would like to try this approach instead of washing. My question is, how much yeast do you typically save for a future starter (ie 25mL, 100mL, etc).

I ask because if you are only saving a small amount, say 25mL total compacted yeast, it sounds like one would have to do a larger starter, or a two step to achieve a certain pitch rate (I aim for 1mil/mL/P). When I wash my yeast, my end product in the pint sized mason jars is usually 100mL of compacted yeast. So I know I have roughly 120B cells (using Wyeasts 1.2bil/mL).

Again, I am all for trying this method, as it would save me time when it comes to washing. My main concern is the total volume procured from the starter.

Thanks

You can save as much as you want. Just make the starter that much bigger. If your brew needs 250B cells and you want to save an additional 100B, then make a starter that would yield 350B cells. Your only limitation is the size of the starter vessel. Also, if your starter vessel is too small to accommodate the entire starter, you can split it. Make a starter that yields 200B cells, pour off half for later and do another step with the remaining half to get your pitch quantity. There are many ways to skin this cat.

When I harvest from a starter, which is pretty much every time I make one, I shoot for 25-50B cells for ale strains and 50-100B for lager strains. Yes, I will have to make another starter when the time comes to use it again, but I have 6 or 7 strains currently in my yeast bank and it could be several months before I get back to that strain again, so I don't mind. If I'm going to use the same strain more than once within a month or so, I just save and direct-pitch slurry from the first batch and forego the need for another starter.

 

[Natdavis777]

You can save as much as you want. Just make the starter that much bigger. If your brew needs 250B cells and you want to save an additional 100B, then make a starter that would yield 350B cells. Your only limitation is the size of the starter vessel. Also, if your starter vessel is too small to accommodate the entire starter, you can split it. Make a starter that yields 200B cells, pour off half for later and do another step with the remaining half to get your pitch quantity.

When I harvest from a starter, which is pretty much every time I make one, I shoot for 25-50B cells for ale strains and 50-100B for lager strains. Yes, I will have to make another starter when the time comes to use it again, but I have 6 or 7 strains currently in my yeast bank and it could be several months before I get back to that strain again, so I don't mind. If I'm going to use the same strain more than once within a month or so, I just save and direct-pitch slurry from the first batch and forego the need for another starter.

Gotcha. I just used my last 001 in my bank, and will be using the rest of my 1968 soon, so I will use this method when I start my new bank. Thanks for the insight.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Right on and good luck. As long as you're comfortable making starters, this method is as easy as it gets.

 

[Natdavis777]

I make starters for every brew (10gal batches so two starters at the same time)

 

[jtratcliff]

Have you read this thread?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=519995

 

[LLBeanJ]

Have you read this thread?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=519995

Also, check out Brulosopher's web site. He has a great write-up on harvesting from starters.

 

[brew703]

Also, check out Brulosopher's web site. He has a great write-up on harvesting from starters.

Thanks for the link. I read the write up yesterday.
I used BrewUniteds yeast calc. I entered the info and here's the results:
Step 1:
starter volume shows .5L. Does it default to this?
The innoculation rate shows 158 mill. this figure is highlighted in red. Also shows this figure should be between 25 & 100 million. The growth factor is .82, also highlighted in red. Info shows this figure should be at least 1.
when I change the starter volume to 1L, these two figures changed to 79 and 1.78 respectively.

I also entered info into the mr malty calculator and it shows that I do not need a starter.

At this point, I'm not ready to make a starter. I do not have a stir plate yet and just not familiar enough with the process.

This weekend will be the first time using liquid yeast. Guess I will just pitch the entire package and maybe harvest some yeast next time.

 

[brew703]

I have had success washing yeast, tutorial here.but what I find I do most often is buy a tube of fresh yeast, make a 2l starter crash it. decant and split it into 2 ,now save one and make a starter for my brew,now I have aprox the same amount in my fridge for next brew.then I do it again works for me and I don't have to take all the time to wash yeast

edit:link fixed

If you make a 2L starter and you add 1L of it for one brew and put the remaining 1L starter in the fridge until next brew day (assume following weekend), would you just take the remaining starter from the fridge, warm to room temp and place back on stir plate? Or would you take the remaining starter and add it to another batch of DME and water then put back on stir plate?

 

[joshesmusica]

If you make a 2L starter and you add 1L of it for one brew and put the remaining 1L starter in the fridge until next brew day (assume following weekend), would you just take the remaining starter from the fridge, warm to room temp and place back on stir plate? Or would you take the remaining starter and add it to another batch of DME and water then put back on stir plate?

If it was only one week I would just decant it and then allow it to warm back up to room temps.

If it was too much longer after that I would decant, them make like a 500ml vitality starter, which is made the same day as pitching, and it just allows them some time pre pitch to start taking up minerals and reenforcing their cell health. It's not enough time for propagation though.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

Gotta use wort for a starter.

I use pasteurized apple juice. I apologize for bringing this up in multiple threads, but I am trying to spread the gospel of saving time and/or money. The best part is that you can decant into a glass or bottle and drink your cider.

 

[Gavin C]

Ok. I've read some info on starters. I have a smack pack Wyeast 2112 that will be used this weekend. Looks like this package will make a 1 liter starter, correct? If I wanted to make a bigger starter and use some this weekend and some the following weekend, would I make a 2L starter with the one smack pack and use half for each brew?
How do I maintain a starter for future use?
Sorry for the newbie questions.

Rinsing yeast and using the straight slurry will both give you good results. Unfortunately for the rinsing, it's theorized benefits are not realised when it comes to analysing the resulting yeast. Is is essentially a waste of time. Washing yeast requires lab gear and it's not applicable to homebrewers.

Harvesting slurry is easy.

Slurry ready to pitch

As a guide to which is better, there was a yeast rinsing sticky thread which has been unstickied (not best practice so it was removed)

A new sticky replaced it. Simple yeast harvesting. A good read.

I favor overbuiling starters.

There is a starightforward piece on making starters in my signature. Brulosopher covers overbuilding process very well in his blog. Worth a read.

 

[brew703]

Thanks Gavin. I'll read this tonight.
I know this has been discussed and I am a bit unsure. Lets say I take the yeast cake from a just racked batch and transfer that yeast cake into a sterilized pint size mason jar. Within a week I will brew another batch. When I am ready to brew, do I take the jar out of the fridge and allow to warm to room temp? how much of the yeast would I pitch for a 2 gallon batch? I've read approx. a cup would be right for 5 gallon batches.
Would I simply shake the jar and pour into the wort?
I apologize for the newbie questions. I'm just trying to get this right.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Lets say I take the yeast cake from a just racked batch and transfer that yeast cake into a sterilized pint size mason jar. Within a week I will brew another batch. When I am ready to brew, do I take the jar out of the fridge and allow to warm to room temp? how much of the yeast would I pitch for a 2 gallon batch? I've read approx. a cup would be right for 5 gallon batches.
Would I simply shake the jar and pour into the wort?

Yes, take out the jar and let it warm to room temp. Ideally, the yeast should be within ± 10°F of the wort temp when you pitch it, but don't be too concerned about it. As long as the wort is 75° or less and the yeast is at whatever room temp is, it will be fine. Even cold yeast right out of the fridge would be fine but that practice is somewhat frowned upon, as it supposedly could shock the yeast, but I don't buy into that. When ready to pitch, spray the jar with sanitizer, let sit for a minute, remove the lid and pour it into your wort, then aerate with O2 if you have it.

I figure 1ml unwashed slurry = 1M cells and that seems to work well. So, based on this, an 8 oz jar of slurry would be a bit north of 200M cells.

 

[Gavin C]

+1