Huge Efficiency Jump - Questions

[mblanks2]

I recently brewed a Ruination clone that SHOULD have needed 1lb of sugar added at flameout to get the ABV where needed. My pre-boil and post boil gravities were very high. All my volumes were dead on.
I generally maintain a consistent 72% - 75% mash efficiency. This brew hit 86%.
This recipe was 93.5% base and 6.5% Caramel malt. Nothing changed in my crush and water adjustments were all in line with previous practices.
The only thing that was changed in my process was the brand of base malt. I usually use Breiss 2-Row and recently purchased some Great Western from another brewer.
Do you think that the malt is what caused this increase in efficiency?

 

[IslandLizard]

86% is pretty high, but if the malt was the only variable, it seems to point at that. You do BIAB?

 

[mblanks2]

You do BIAB?

No, I re-circ the mash for temp control and fly sparge. Yes I agree that 86% is high that's why I wonder if it's the malt. It was the only variable.
I guess I'll just have to brew again with the same malt and see if I get the same results.

 

[Rev2010]

Just hit 86% yesterday with my Amber ale, my usual is 81%. Wondering if it was being it's the first time I adjusted my mash pH to 5.2 using lactic acid. I see many claim higher efficiencies with proper pH levels. On the flip side, the Belgian Saison I brewed two months ago hit 91% and knowing now my pH levels that one certainly had a high pH.

Sometimes I too wonder if it's the grains, just a better yield for that crop? My mill setting was the same as always for barley so I'm curious as well. High efficiency is great and all, but I'm happy with 81% and it's been very consistent up till just these two batches out of 7 the past several months. Consistency is much more important. That saison I mentioned, I was shooting for 6.1% abv and got 8.6% instead also because it attenuated further than estimated.

Rev.

 

[CA_Mouse]

I switched to Great Western malts early last year and saw a huge improvement in my mash efficiency. I went from low 70's to 79% - 85% without changing anything else in my process. I have tweaked my process a bit and changed from a SS braid to a CPVC manifold and the last 2 batches I've seen 87% and 89% efficiency. I started asking my LHBS to special order GW malts, since everyone else seemed to want Briess (I only buy my base grains by the sack, so it isn't like they will have an odd grain sitting around).

 

[mblanks2]

I switched to Great Western malts early last year and saw a huge improvement in my mash efficiency. I went from low 70's to 79% - 85% without changing anything else in my process. I have tweaked my process a bit and changed from a SS braid to a CPVC manifold and the last 2 batches I've seen 87% and 89% efficiency. I started asking my LHBS to special order GW malts, since everyone else seemed to want Briess (I only buy my base grains by the sack, so it isn't like they will have an odd grain sitting around).

If I continue to see this increase in the next batch or two I'm going to considering looking at purchasing Great Western all the time as well. I keep bulk in 2 row, Vienna, Pilsner and White Wheat. I've been doing water chemistry adjustments for well over a year now so I know that isn't an issue. I'm mostly concerned with the beer I brewed that was supposed to be an 8% ABV that will likely be 10+%.
As long as it's drinkable I'll be happy. I've got it fermenting on the low end at 62*f and added an additional 1/2 pack of rehydrated US-05 before pitching to try to prevent fusels. So here's to hoping all turns out well.
Thanks for the input.

 

[CA_Mouse]

I currently use the GW American Pale Ale malt as my base. It is a 3L base malt and is very similar to MO. It makes doing a SMaSH simple and has a bit more malt flavor than the regular 2-Row, plus a little more color.

 

[mblanks2]

I currently use the GW American Pale Ale malt as my base. It is a 3L base malt and is very similar to MO. It makes doing a SMaSH simple and has a bit more malt flavor than the regular 2-Row, plus a little more color.

Good info, thanks. I have about 20lbs of the premium 2 Row left and a full bag of the pale ale malt.

 

[tsl346]

Do you have any information on the points per gallon of the Great Western malts? I ask because if Breiss 2- row gives 37 points per gallon, the Great Western may have a different higher percentage of fermentable sugars, say 39 points per gallon. You may or may not be seeing an efficiency increase, there may just be more fermentable sugars in the malts from another supplier.

 

[CA_Mouse]

Here is the Briess 2-Row
Malt Type Domestic Base Malt
Origin USA
Lovibond 1.8
Extract % 80
Moisture % 4.2
Total Protein % 11.5
Soluble Protein % 0
S/T 42
Diastatic Power 140
Alpha Amylase 55
Usage % 100

GW American Pale Ale
TYPE: NORTHWEST PALE ALE

Updated 6/16/05

% Assortment
7/64" 63.5
6/64" 27.2
5/64" 7.2
Thru 5/64" 2.1

Chemical Analysis
Moisture, % 3.9
Extract %, finely ground malt, as is 77.7
Extract %, finely ground malt, dry basis 80.9
Extract %, coarsley ground malt, as is 77.0
Extract %, coarsley ground malt, dry basis 80.1
F/C Difference % 0.8
Color, laboratory Wort, degrees Lovibond 2.69
Viscosity 1.46
Beta Glucan, ppm 80
Diastatic Power 134
Alpha Amylase (DU) 59.3
Total Soluble Protein %, dry basis 5.58
Total Protein %, dry basis 12.57
S/T Ratio % 44.4
Conversion, minutes 5-7
Aroma of Mash Aromatic
Filtration Time Normal
Clarity of Wort 8

 

[stratslinger]

Just a side note - those aren't necessarily "equivalent" malts you're comparing there. Not that it would explain the difference you're seeing, but wanted to point this out. There's Briess 2-Row, and the Great Western equivalent would be their Premium 2-Row, while the Northwest Pale Ale would compare to Briess Pale Ale malt. They're really similar, but pale ale malt gives you a little bit more color, and a little more flavor, since it's kilned just a little bit longer that basic 2-row.

 

[Singletrack]

Here is the Briess 2-Row
Malt Type Domestic Base Malt
Origin USA
Lovibond 1.8
Extract % 80
Moisture % 4.2
Total Protein % 11.5
Soluble Protein % 0
S/T 42
Diastatic Power 140
Alpha Amylase 55
Usage % 100

GW American Pale Ale
TYPE: NORTHWEST PALE ALE

Updated 6/16/05

% Assortment
7/64" 63.5
6/64" 27.2
5/64" 7.2
Thru 5/64" 2.1

Chemical Analysis
Moisture, % 3.9
Extract %, finely ground malt, as is 77.7
Extract %, finely ground malt, dry basis 80.9
Extract %, coarsley ground malt, as is 77.0
Extract %, coarsley ground malt, dry basis 80.1
F/C Difference % 0.8
Color, laboratory Wort, degrees Lovibond 2.69
Viscosity 1.46
Beta Glucan, ppm 80
Diastatic Power 134
Alpha Amylase (DU) 59.3
Total Soluble Protein %, dry basis 5.58
Total Protein %, dry basis 12.57
S/T Ratio % 44.4
Conversion, minutes 5-7
Aroma of Mash Aromatic
Filtration Time Normal
Clarity of Wort 8

Based on this data, Briess is 35.3 pt/lb/gal, and GW (updated in 2005) is 35.8. This would not cause a big difference in OG, since GW is less than 2% higher in extract.

Updated in 2005? Can anyone explain why it is so difficult to get current extract values for every grain we may want to use? (End of short rant.)

 

[CA_Mouse]

Based on this data, Briess is 35.3 pt/lb/gal, and GW (updated in 2005) is 35.8. This would not cause a big difference in OG, since GW is less than 2% higher in extract.

Updated in 2005? Can anyone explain why it is so difficult to get current extract values for every grain we may want to use? (End of short rant.)

Unfortunately, I couldn't get data directly from GW. That info is from More Beer's website.

 

[Singletrack]

Unfortunately, I couldn't get data directly from GW. That info is from More Beer's website.

Yeah, sorry if my comment seemed like a criticism! That was not my intent. I have had the same problem as you getting up-to-date extract data. For some grains, I cannot find any extract data at all.

 

[CA_Mouse]

Yeah, sorry if my comment seemed like a criticism! That was not my intent. I have had the same problem as you getting up-to-date extract data. For some grains, I cannot find any extract data at all.

Not at all. I didn't see it as criticism of my post, just of the fact that there isn't more up to date data. So it is all good.

 

[mblanks2]

As long as it's drinkable I'll be happy. I've got it fermenting on the low end at 62*f and added an additional 1/2 pack of rehydrated US-05 before pitching to try to prevent fusels. So here's to hoping all turns out well.

Well I may have my first dumper after 2 1/2 years of brewing. I ran this with an extra 1/2 pack of 05 at 62*. Then ramped them temp up a little each day after 2 weeks to be sure the yeast finished up. After I reached 70* I left it for four additional weeks then racked to kegs and burst carbed.
It's just NOT good. It tastes hot and boozy. FG at 1.016 to arrive at 10.5%. I'll let it sit in the kegs for a few weeks to see if it mellows out but as it is now I can't see drinking it.

 

[Wolfbayte]

Well I may have my first dumper after 2 1/2 years of brewing. I ran this with an extra 1/2 pack of 05 at 62*. Then ramped them temp up a little each day after 2 weeks to be sure the yeast finished up. After I reached 70* I left it for four additional weeks then racked to kegs and burst carbed.
It's just NOT good. It tastes hot and boozy. FG at 1.016 to arrive at 10.5%. I'll let it sit in the kegs for a few weeks to see if it mellows out but as it is now I can't see drinking it.

It's way too soon to talk dumping. Big beers take longer to condition. I'd let it condition in keg min of 4, if not 6-8 weeks and taste it again.

 

[Foosier]

I brewed a big triple that ended around 10% abv also. It took 6 months in the bottle to really start to shine. It was harsh while it was young. Give it time. You may want to consider bottling and cellaring it since it is not going to mature quickly.

 

[mblanks2]

It's way too soon to talk dumping. Big beers take longer to condition. I'd let it condition in keg min of 4, if not 6-8 weeks and taste it again.

True, I was just very discouraged at the boozy taste.

Give it time. You may want to consider bottling and cellaring it since it is not going to mature quickly.

Thanks, I will probably let it age in the keg. Since this is an IIPA I was really wanting to drink this fresh but with as high of an alcohol content, it may do better with time.
I'll taste it again every 30 days or so until it's drinkable or a period of time goes by that I determine it's not getting any better.