How to thaw 1500lbs of frozen apples?

[Delaney]

Hi,

I have about 1500 lbs of apples in deep-freezers right now. I plan to thaw them and press them for cider. For this I plan to buy two 55 gallon drums (food-grade plastic, with lids) that I will outfit with air locks for primary fermentation.

I have a few concerns for thawing. Firstly, I don't want to lose juice leaking from bags. Secondly, I don't want things to spoil from thawing too slowly.

-Should I add sulphites to the apples pre-thaw so that nothing spoils? If so, how much?

-Should I just microwave the apples to thaw them, or do it au natural?

-Any other ideas for how to thaw so many apples?

Cheers,

Delaney.

 

[lukebuz]

You will only loose like 1% of the juice from leaky bags. I'd just thaw on a sunny morning, and start pressing. Stagger more apples out of the freezer as you press the thawed ones. Where do you store almost a ton of apples at dude? Holy crap, my big deep freezer is full with nearly 200 lbs!

 

[WVMJ]

Are you going to make an ice cider, pressing the partially thawed apples so the juice is more concentrated or are you just going for all the juice you can get? Its hard to answer you question since we have no idea of your setup, do you have a good scratter, a fast press? WVMJ

 

[madscientist451]

If you can wait until colder weather comes, like 40F, it may be better. You don't want them to thaw too fast. Only take out as many as will fit into your press, when they are thawed about 30% or so, put in the press whole and apply pressure a little at a time, it will take longer but you'll get a clear, sweet juice for ice cider. I've tried this with good results, but it depends on what kind of apples you have.
Claude Jolicoeur covers this in a you tube video:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdLAThSueAA[/ame]

 

[misha]

My ice cider approach - pressing thawed apples and then ferment the juice is my idea this year, I want to use wild yeast occurring naturally in those apples, cider apples - dabinett and mitchellin - I couldn't find any information that it could work - one forum said that its only possible with foreign yeast applied later, but yeast should survive freezing temperatures, so not sure why its a problem, any suggestions?

 

[RPh_Guy]

My ice cider approach - pressing thawed apples and then ferment the juice is my idea this year, I want to use wild yeast occurring naturally in those apples, cider apples - dabinett and mitchellin - I couldn't find any information that it could work - one forum said that its only possible with foreign yeast applied later, but yeast should survive freezing temperatures, so not sure why its a problem, any suggestions?

I don't have personal experience but I agree it sounds like a fine plan. The cell count will be lower because of the freezing, so it will probably take longer to start. Keep an eye on it for mold.

There's likely also yeast that will go into your must from your press and other equipment.

 

[misha]

cell count? like small amount of yeast cells? well that's quite desirable for balance flavor that should develop no? what else could get freeze damage? pectin? there is definitely less lees to deal with so potentially less troubles for off flavors(Ive never experience that - only heard it on internet) that could occur i guess. About mold - probably timing will be crucial here - to press it as soon as its thawed...

 

[misha]

I don't have personal experience but I agree it sounds like a fine plan. The cell count will be lower because of the freezing, so it will probably take longer to start. Keep an eye on it for mold.

There's likely also yeast that will go into your must from your press and other equipment.

cell count? like small amount of yeast cells? well that's quite desirable for balance flavor that should develop no? what else could get freeze damage? pectin? there is definitely less lees to deal with so potentially less troubles for off flavors that could occur i guess. About mold - probably timing will be crucial here - to press it as soon as its thawed...

 

[RPh_Guy]

Cell count = number of viable cells.
Freezing kills off some unknown portion of them.
To my knowledge freezing doesn't damage anything else.

Here's my logic:
There are mold spores in the juice.
Less yeast means longer lag time.
It's the CO2 production & oxygen consumption by yeast that prevents mold growth.
The longer the juice goes without that protection, the higher chance that mold will grow.

Sounds cool! Good luck!

 

[ten80]

cell count? like small amount of yeast cells? well that's quite desirable for balance flavor that should develop no? what else could get freeze damage? pectin? there is definitely less lees to deal with so potentially less troubles for off flavors that could occur i guess. About mold - probably timing will be crucial here - to press it as soon as its thawed...

Pectin won't change, but your apples will be softer and may be slightly slower to press because there will be more "mush" in your pomace, rather than a nice granular matrix of crushed apples. Probably not a big deal.

You can grind the apples when they are mostly thawed and store in 5-gal buckets till the ground pomace thaws completely. At this point, you can add 50 ppm SO2 (approximatle 1 campden tablet per gallon) to help preserve the juice till pressing, or just go ahead and press without much delay.

Check your pomace pH; if it is high (e.g., above 3.8) you are at greater risk for an infection and should consider sulfite addition. My apples generally have a juice pH around 3.2-3.5 and I don't worry about infection very much because the yeast I pitch take over fermentation well before any bacteria at such a low pH.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You can grind the apples when they are mostly thawed

I heard they didn't need to be ground if they were frozen. ?

Check your pomace pH; if it is high (e.g., above 3.8) you are at greater risk for an infection and should consider sulfite addition.

The anti-microbial activity of sulfite is from molecular SO2, the formation of which is pH-dependent.
The higher "infection" risk at elevated pH is due to added sulfite having less of an effect per amount of free SO2.

Using a sulfite calculator to target 1 ppm molecular SO2 takes into account the pH so you know you're using the right amount.
http://fermcalc.com/FermCalcJS.html
If your juice pH is so high that you need excessive amounts of sulfite, it's good to acidify the juice to lower the amount needed.

Lower pH by itself doesn't provided much protection. Plenty of wild microbes are happy in the 3.2-3.5 range.

Cheers

 

[misha]

I heard they didn't need to be ground if they were frozen. ?


The anti-microbial activity of sulfite is from molecular SO2, the formation of which is pH-dependent.
The higher "infection" risk at elevated pH is due to added sulfite having less of an effect per amount of free SO2.

Using a sulfite calculator to target 1 ppm molecular SO2 takes into account the pH so you know you're using the right amount.
http://fermcalc.com/FermCalcJS.html
If your juice pH is so high that you need excessive amounts of sulfite, it's good to acidify the juice to lower the amount needed.

Lower pH by itself doesn't provided much protection. Plenty of wild microbes are happy in the 3.2-3.5 range.

Cheers

It says that mitchelin has 3,84ph and dabinett - 4,16 - so even blend should oscillate around 4 i guess... I might try to make single variety, then make some blends (tried more commercial blend of those two - and its really good). Ill try to press it as soon as its thawed - and am thinking of having half of apples crashed and pressed without freezing - and have that supposedly more reliable juice at hand to mix it when i decide its taking too long with the thawed apples juice fermentation commencing or maybe even when i see some nasty stuff developing. I'm trying not to use sulphites and other stuff at this stage - so I could see how it works by itself but sure it would be sad to see mold developing! About the idea of crushing thawed apples - it seems ok but my main reason for freezing was to avoid crushing:> was also thinking that those pressed apple skins - leftovers - might have some potential as well - so might try to crash them and use in sample blend to see if it gives any character to cider.

 

[ten80]

I heard they didn't need to be ground if they were frozen. ?

Lower pH by itself doesn't provided much protection. Plenty of wild microbes are happy in the 3.2-3.5 range.

Not crushing will reduce juice yield, but may produce a clearer juice. Your choice.

I understand the relationship between pH and free SO2, but I will argue that low pH (i.e., <4.0 pH units) on its own does provide protection from mold and undesirable bacteria such as Enterobacter. A cider at pH 4.0 will "go bad" much faster than a cider at pH 3.4 when no SO2 is added. A lower pH will also allow for acid-tolerant yeast (wild or pitched) to begin fermenting before any contaminating bacteria which are more pH sensitive.

Of course low pH does not do much to inhibit Acetobacter, but the production of acetic acid requires alcohol.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I agree lower pH generally inhibits microbes, I just don't think the 3.8 cutoff makes sense for spoilage potential.

Here's what I could dig up from Claude Jolicoeur:

"When the pH is lower or equal to 3.0, the acidity is normally sufficient to protect the cider from the spoilage due to unwanted micro-organisms.

If the pH is between 3.0 and 3.8, the acidity alone would not be enough for protection and the addition of sulfite (SO2) is recommended to complete the protection."

 

[misha]

Might consider buying some sulfur to have it at hand. Was also thinking of starting from few containers with normally pressed apples - without freezing - to have good amount of yeast working - so i can pitch it into future ice cider buckets, as means of prevention from spoilage and mold. And on that note - has anyone experienced mold on scion wood? I have some scion wood resting in refrigerator - but there's mold on some branches and I would like to get rid of it.

 

[ten80]

Might consider buying some sulfur to have it at hand. Was also thinking of starting from few containers with normally pressed apples - without freezing - to have good amount of yeast working - so i can pitch it into future ice cider buckets, as means of prevention from spoilage and mold.

That's a good idea, essentially making a starter for your cider, but beware of overpitching which might lead to too rapid of a fermentation. A very fast fermentation may lose apple flavors and attenuate to a higher degree than desired.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have some scion wood resting in refrigerator - but there's mold on some branches and I would like to get rid of it.

I don't know why one would store wood in the refrigerator?
Anyway, the best way to control mold growth is reducing humidity (<40% is good). It also won't grow below freezing.

Bleach is another option, but spores are everywhere so that's a losing battle in the long run.

 

[misha]

I don't know why one would store wood in the refrigerator?
to keep it alive - and viable for grafting
Anyway, the best way to control mold growth is reducing humidity (<40% is good). It also won't grow below freezing.

Bleach is another option, but spores are everywhere so that's a losing battle in the long run.

I don't know why one would store wood in the refrigerator?
Anyway, the best way to control mold growth is reducing humidity (<40% is good). It also won't grow below freezing.

Bleach is another option, but spores are everywhere so that's a losing battle in the long run.

 

[misha]

what about boiling water?

 

[RPh_Guy]

what about boiling water?

Hmm. I don't know.
That would probably damage the wood.

 

[S-Met]

Might consider buying some sulfur to have it at hand. Was also thinking of starting from few containers with normally pressed apples - without freezing - to have good amount of yeast working - so i can pitch it into future ice cider buckets, as means of prevention from spoilage and mold. And on that note - has anyone experienced mold on scion wood? I have some scion wood resting in refrigerator - but there's mold on some branches and I would like to get rid of it.

Standard otc H2O2. Hydrogen peroxide will have fun with biologicals and decompose to H2O after giving up its extra O2. Soft-med brush.

If possible, dump a gal of H2O2 into a container and submerge the scion. Let it sit then gently brush.

 

[Grad]

I'd thaw them in separate, same sized buckets or plastic barrels that are extremely clean and sanitized with some sulphite sprayed on them or at least in the containers right before filling. As long as the containers are the same size, the apples should stay reasonably cool while the whole container thaws. I've only thawed 6 gallon buckets full at a time, but it works well and scaling up should be fine. If I were you I would do it in stages and not all at once. Maybe 200-300lbs per thawing/pressing.

 

[misha]

Did more or less what I intended to do, not much sanitizing - but used boiled water and cleaned all the containers with it - plus I used cider I pressed about week earlier - with good amount of yeast in it - and some alcohol already as well. About thawing now - I'm curious if there's much difference between juice from thawed apples and frozen apples - mine were totally thawed and some were left for more then 2 days - but no mold and nastiness was observed. I would like to know if its possible to get similar enough effect as with frozen apples - so to get 8-13 % alcohol.