how to take temp in fermentation chamber?

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actech

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Whats the best way to position the temp probe? Put in glass of water? tape and insulate to bucket? Then move it to newest bucket ?
Figure gonna be some short cycling if just hanging in the air.
 
The BEST way is with a thermowell stopper. That way, you're measuring the temperature of the actual beer. The next best way is to tape the probe to the outside of the fermenter, and cover it with bubble wrap or some other kind of insulator. Putting the probe in a separate glass of water is the worst possible solution - do not do that.
 
I put either a folded rag or a piece of insulation in a zip lock bag and use a bungie cord around the carboy or bucket to hold it in place and slide the temp probe between it and the fermenter
 
The BEST way is with a thermowell stopper. That way, you're measuring the temperature of the actual beer. The next best way is to tape the probe to the outside of the fermenter, and cover it with bubble wrap or some other kind of insulator. Putting the probe in a separate glass of water is the worst possible solution - do not do that.

I agree with the thermowell but completely disagree with the glass of water solution. A glass of water is the best way to allow for the specific heat retention of water to properly reflect the temp of the wort and keep the compressor from cycling on and off.
 
I agree with the thermowell but completely disagree with the glass of water solution. A glass of water is the best way to allow for the specific heat retention of water to properly reflect the temp of the wort and keep the compressor from cycling on and off.

Sorry, but you're mistaken. Putting the probe in a jar of water is the worst possible solution. The thermowell is the ideal solution.

Here's why: Think about what happens during fermentation. You've got your fermenter sitting in the fridge, and the beer is at exactly the right temperature. The yeast start working, producing heat. The beer warms up a little bit. If you had the probe inside a thermowell, then the temperature controller would know immediately, and could turn on the fridge to keep the temperature where it's supposed to be.

But your probe isn't in a thermowell. It's in a jar of water, which hasn't changed temperature (because there are no yeast in it producing heat). So the beer warms up. This warms up the surrounding air in the fermentation chamber. If your temperature probe were dangling loose, this is the point at which it would notice an increase in temperature, and could turn on the fridge to cool things back down.

But your probe isn't dangling loose. It's still in that jar of water. Now that the surrounding air has started warming up, the water in the jar finally also starts warming up. Meanwhile, the temperature of your beer is spiking, because the yeast are getting more and more excited, and the temperature controller still hasn't yet turned on the fridge to cool things down.

Finally, the temperature of the water in the jar increases by enough to trigger the temperature controller to activate the fridge. But by now, who knows how warm your beer has gotten in the meantime.

Now, a similar problem occurs while cooling down. The temperature controller notices that your jar of water has warmed up a little, so it turns on the fridge. The fridge cools the air down, which slowly cools down the water in your jar. It cools the beer down a little bit too, but not as much, since it a) has more thermal mass, and b) has active yeast in it producing heat. Before too long, the water in the jar has cooled back down to the target temperature, so the temperature controller kills the power to the fridge. But the beer is still too warm. The air inside the fridge will be considerably cooler than the water in the jar, so the water in the jar might continue to cool for a while, before bottoming out and starting to warm up again. During this whole time, the beer is still above the target temperature, and getting hotter again.

As you can see, this is a terrible solution. Best idea, probe in thermowell in beer, second-best idea, tape probe to the outside of the fermenter and cover it with some sort of insulator (foam, bubble wrap, whatever), third best is to just let the probe dangle freely in the air. But immersing it in a separate liquid is the worst possible solution.

The compressor cycling too much is not an issue, and even if it were, the way to control that is by changing the cycling delay setting on your STC-1000 (i.e., mine is set to 10 minutes, so if the freezer was "on" within the last 10 minutes, the STC-1000 will not turn the cooling circuit "on" again until 10 minutes have elapsed, even if the temperature has climbed above the setting).
 
Your either going to get 2 answers over and over.Taped to the side or thermowell.I hated the taped to the side way.Messing with bungie cords/straps/tape every time was a pain in the @ss.Wondering if the insulation was letting air in ETC. A $12 thermowell lets me know EXACTLY what the inside temp is,and I like that.Plus its easy neat and clean..For me thermowell all day.
 
These posts are always split down the middle and the fact is, there is no "better" way. It is exactly like plastic vs glass for fermenting.

As long as you adjust for what way works best for your setup and you know what temperatures you have going on inside, then you're golden. It is all about keeping it consistent with your setup.
 
If the goal is actual temperature controlled fermentation, there clearly are better ways and worse ways.
Better ways provide a tight feedback loop between wort and control.
Worse ways provide a loose loop - or no loop at all...

Cheers!
 
I'd like to see an experiment where two exact beers are brewed next to each other, one with a thermowell and one taped to the bucket and kept at one set temperature. Then tell me that in the finished products one is better than the other because of a "tighter loop".
 
I'd like to see an experiment where two exact beers are brewed next to each other, one with a thermowell and one taped to the bucket and kept at one set temperature. Then tell me that in the finished products one is better than the other because of a "tighter loop".

Too close a comparison, a well-insulated probe will read within a half degree F of a thermowell in the typical FV.

How about pick either of those, and put it up against a probe hanging in free air? Or dunked in a 12 ounce bottle of water?

Cheers!
 
Too close a comparison, a well-insulated probe will read within a half degree F of a thermowell in the typical FV.



How about pick either of those, and put it up against a probe hanging in free air? Or dunked in a 12 ounce bottle of water?



Cheers!


Now that I can agree with! I was more thinking the other two options, as I have seen people argue that a thermowell is superior to the side of the bucket, when in fact it is no better if you know what's going on inside the bucket in your system in comparison to your probe reading.
 
Too close a comparison, a well-insulated probe will read within a half degree F of a thermowell in the typical FV.

How about pick either of those, and put it up against a probe hanging in free air? Or dunked in a 12 ounce bottle of water?

Cheers!

I agree you would find no detectable difference. My preference lies with a thermowell is another piece of equipment I would have to buy (actually multiple) and the fact I would prefer to keep as much as possible from touching the wort.
 
Sorry, but you're mistaken. Putting the probe in a jar of water is the worst possible solution. The thermowell is the ideal solution.
...
Best idea, probe in thermowell in beer, second-best idea, tape probe to the outside of the fermenter and cover it with some sort of insulator (foam, bubble wrap, whatever), third best is to just let the probe dangle freely in the air. But immersing it in a separate liquid is the worst possible solution.
I agree that immersing the sensor in a separate liquid is a bad idea because it adds unnecessary lag time between the controller and the sensor readings. The level of sensor data filtering it provides compared to having it dangling in the air is hardly worth the additional lag time.

However, I think the placement of the temperature sensor may best depend on how you cool your beer--unless you have a very advanced temperature control which includes a mathematical model of the entire system including the exothermic reaction of the fermentation over time.

My current fermentation chamber is an old freezer. That is, it cools the fermentation bucket containing the beer by means of the air temperature in the fermentation chamber. In this fermenter, I measure the air temperature in the fermentation chamber (keeping a small fan running to ensure that the air is circulating, so I can I can place the temperature sensor about anywhere in the chamber), for two reasons:

Firstly, there would be a significant lag time between powering the cooler and being able to measure the effect within the beer, and I don't feel comfortable tuning a PID controller with that much lag in a freezer capable of cooling the air temperature by several degrees per minute.

Secondly, since the beer in the fermentation bucket is cooled by the temperature of the air in the fermentation chamber, then if I am able to maintain the desired temperature of the air, presumably the beer will have the same temperature in spite of the exothermic reaction of fermentation; at worst, the air temperature indicates a balance between the beer temperature and the coolant temperature. This obviously means that somewhere in the middle of the beer, which is farthest from the cooling air in the fermentation chamber, the temperature is probably going to be a little higher than desired. If I were to put the sensor directly into the beer, I would just create the opposite problem: as long as the center temperature of the beer is too high, the cooler keeps going and lowers the temperature of the fermentation chamber air so much that the temperature of the beer at the sides of the fermentation bucket is too low. (In short, this is basically a drawback of cooling via cold the air in the fermentation chamber, not a result of the placement of the temperature sensor.)

On the other hand, if I had been controlling the temperature of the beer by immersing a cooling element into the beer, I'd want to measure the temperature of the beer itself.
 
The temperature of actively-fermenting beer is relatively homogenous. Yeast activity produces a natural convective effect that normalizes temperature throughout the entire vessel.

After active fermentation winds down, there may indeed be temperature stratification in the beer (either top-to-bottom, or interior-to-exterior), but at that point, temperature becomes much less important. Besides, if the temperature variation were to become at all meaningful, it would, in itself, produce more convective activity, which would serve to equalize said temperature differential.

In short, it's not a real concern, and is far more favourable than the alternative (i.e., allowing temperature to escalate too high before the probe recognizes the rising temperature condition and activates the cooling mechanism to bring temperatures back under control).
 
Hi,
This is a great discussion.
So what if you have multiple fermentors in the chamber. Like around 5 ?
Would it be better to monitor the temp on one fermentor and assume the rest are the same ? Or in this case measure the free moving air ?
 
Hi,
This is a great discussion.
So what if you have multiple fermentors in the chamber. Like around 5 ?
Would it be better to monitor the temp on one fermentor and assume the rest are the same ? Or in this case measure the free moving air ?

I usually run two fermentors in parallel and there've been lots of times the two brews were trying to get out of sync - one running warmer than the other.

When that happens I switch my controller probe to the warmer fermentor to keep it on track and hope the cooler one doesn't suffer. So far it's never seemed to cause actual quality problems.

I wouldn't try to use the cabinet air temperature to control fermentation temperature, it just doesn't work well at all.
What some folks do is use one controller to keep the cabinet temperature cool then use Fermwraps on every fermentor with its own controller...

Cheers!
 
I usually run two fermentors in parallel and there've been lots of times the two brews were trying to get out of sync - one running warmer than the other.

When that happens I switch my controller probe to the warmer fermentor to keep it on track and hope the cooler one doesn't suffer. So far it's never seemed to cause actual quality problems.

I wouldn't try to use the cabinet air temperature to control fermentation temperature, it just doesn't work well at all.
What some folks do is use one controller to keep the cabinet temperature cool then use Fermwraps on every fermentor with its own controller...

Cheers!

Thanks Day_Trippr,
I just built my fermenting freezer and I am still trying to figure things out. It's very confusing as there are so many different ways of running it. ( I am about to start a new thread with some questions)

From your advice, I am thinking I might buy 4 digital BBQ thermometers with alarms and place the probes in each fermenter. Then use the temp probe from my controller for the 5th fermentor. I can then at least read what is happening in all of them and manually make adjustments if needed with the controller. Right now I have no idea what is happening inside those fermentors... just the air in the freezer and it's not a good feeling.

Thanks again for the help,

Cam
 

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