how to keep my witbier cloudy in keg?

[YeastHerder]

Hello,

My all-grain recipe is 40% brewers malt (4 lbs), 40% white wheat malt (4 lbs), 20% flaked wheat (2 lbs). Total IBUs just under 20, and using WLP400 at 60F for about 10 days, then another 6-7 days at room temp (~70F). My OG is typically around 1.055 and finishes at or just under 1.010. From primary directly to keg on CO2 at around 14psi and its decently carbed in about a week, ideal at two weeks on CO2. Flavor profile is good and also stable over 2-3 months (usually all gone before 3 months though).

So, my problem is that my cloudy witbier turns into a kristal by about a month on CO2. Aside from shaking the keg, are there any tricks I can do to help keep my yeast in suspension? I'd like to copy the cloudiness of Hoegaarden's white, which also seems to be rock solid in its cloudinesss over time. Ideas?

I'd like to avoid changing the recipe, but am wondering if what I think are yeast in some of the commercial offerings could instead really be chill haze -- like replace the wheat malt with even more flaked wheat, or some flaked oats? There is a silkiness to Hoegaarden that makes me wonder about oats. What do you all think?

Thanks!

 

[Smellyglove]

Turn the keg upside down for some minutes before every sitting. Or if you grab on once in a while, flip it over once in a while. That's sort of the easy way.

I don't think Hoegaarden uses oats. It's also in the process.

 

[hopjunkie26]

If you have a spare liquid out dip tube, put one in the gas in connection. That way, every time CO2 is used to push beer out, it is kicking up the sediment that falls out of suspension and puts it back into suspension.

 

[stpug]

Hoegaarden is pasteurized to "set" the haze.

Clear beer is the bane of hazy-wanting kegging homebrewers. Solutions: Drink it faster; jostle the keg periodically; use even less flocculant yeast; Tanal A (if you can get it); set up a starchy permanent haze (i.e. 1Tbsp flour at end of boil, although you'll sacrifice long term stability).

My solution: Quick to serve (10days), quick to drink (over a week's time)

 

[YeastHerder]

If you have a spare liquid out dip tube, put one in the gas in connection. That way, every time CO2 is used to push beer out, it is kicking up the sediment that falls out of suspension and puts it back into suspension.

Oh great idea, I'll be kegging another batch soon and will give this a try. Thanks!

 

[YeastHerder]

Turn the keg upside down for some minutes before every sitting. Or if you grab on once in a while, flip it over once in a while. That's sort of the easy way.

I don't think Hoegaarden uses oats. It's also in the process.

By process, do you mean stuff like decoction? Is that routinely done for witbiers? I've been doing a very simple one-step mash in, sparge out with 168F water. I live in the LA basin, so water here is fairly hard with high sulfate so I dilute 50/50 with DI, then bump Ca2+ back up to about 50ppm using CaCl2. I wind up with sulfates around 40ppm and Cl around 60ppm, if any of that matters.

 

[YeastHerder]

Hoegaarden is pasteurized to "set" the haze.

Clear beer is the bane of hazy-wanting kegging homebrewers. Solutions: Drink it faster; jostle the keg periodically; use even less flocculant yeast; Tanal A (if you can get it); set up a starchy permanent haze (i.e. 1Tbsp flour at end of boil, although you'll sacrifice long term stability).

My solution: Quick to serve (10days), quick to drink (over a week's time)

Oh neat, Tanal A sounds like the trick I've been looking for. I see that Wyeast sells it by the pound, and that there is a related product called BrewTan B (aka Tanal B). Do you know if those are functionally the same? Edit: oops, after some googling, Tanal B seems to do the opposite of Tanal A.

Interesting idea with the flour -- I wonder if a similar endpoint would come from pushing the % flaked wheat way up. I've seen versions with flaked wheat up to 50% and was considering giving that a try anyway. What do you think?

 

[Smellyglove]

By process, do you mean stuff like decoction? Is that routinely done for witbiers? I've been doing a very simple one-step mash in, sparge out with 168F water. I live in the LA basin, so water here is fairly hard with high sulfate so I dilute 50/50 with DI, then bump Ca2+ back up to about 50ppm using CaCl2. I wind up with sulfates around 40ppm and Cl around 60ppm, if any of that matters.

I don't know exactly what, but for instance if you boil hard as a maniac then you're coagulating haze-positive proteins, and proteins do also account for some mouthfeel.

 

[YeastHerder]

I don't know exactly what, but for instance if you boil hard as a maniac then you're coagulating haze-positive proteins, and proteins do also account for some mouthfeel.

Got it. Post-sparge I have 7 gals in the boil kettle and I boil that down to just under 5 gals in 90 minutes. Not sure if that is a harder boil than usual -- there is still room for me to turn the propane higher

 

[Smellyglove]

Got it. Post-sparge I have 7 gals in the boil kettle and I boil that down to just under 5 gals in 90 minutes. Not sure if that is a harder boil than usual -- there is still room for me to turn the propane higher

That seems like a lot. Isn't that something like 30%? I'm boiling off about 8% (I went down to 6.2% once and got DMS).

But evaporation is not the same as boil intensity. You can boil hard, but if the boiled off water has "no where to go" (like a closed lid) you'll look at a low boil off but high boil intensity, if you boil hard.

And the same the other way. You still see evaporation even if you don't boil. You have to look at the boil to see what's going on down there. Evaporation is only evaporation. But harder boil evaporates more if the lid is off. So you have to find the right amount of boil intensity and the desired boil off by changing variables, like what setting on the heat source and how much you cover with the lid.

 

[YeastHerder]

That seems like a lot. Isn't that something like 30%? I'm boiling off about 8% (I went down to 6.2% once and got DMS).

But evaporation is not the same as boil intensity. You can boil hard, but if the boiled off water has "no where to go" (like a closed lid) you'll look at a low boil off but high boil intensity, if you boil hard.

And the same the other way. You still see evaporation even if you don't boil. You have to look at the boil to see what's going on down there. Evaporation is only evaporation. But harder boil evaporates more if the lid is off. So you have to find the right amount of boil intensity and the desired boil off by changing variables, like what setting on the heat source and how much you cover with the lid.

My setup is all outside, no lid, aiming to maximize the boil off to get total vol back down after the sparge -- and as you point out, that approach came from my lagers where I didn't want even trace DMS left and now I just use it as my standard across all types for simplicity.

 

[couchsending]

There’s a fine line with boil off.. generally under 10% is best, more is not better. The crazy high end brew houses get like 3% or so. With the lid off a very gentle boil is all you need to volatize DMS.