How to get that roasty flavor

[Jbrew]

looking to finally do my first lager. I really like negra modelo, so I’m looking to do something of a Vienna lager. I’m not certain negra modelo is actually a Vienna lager, it labels itself as a Munich dunkel style lager. Anyway, what I’m looking for is that roasty flavor that negra modelo has and that a lot of the porters I’ve had, have. I’ve spent some time looking at negra modelo clones and Vienna lager recipes to try to make up one for myself and there’s all kinds of specialty grains people are using, from Munich and caramel malts to chocolate malts. So my question is what malts do you guys suggest for that flavor and what percentage of my grist would be best?
Thanks all for the suggestions.

 

[BigEd]

I wouldn't say Negra Modelo has much in the way of roasty flavor. Frankly it's not something that should be a part of either a Dunkel or Vienna. The Modelo is maybe more of a Vienna although it's more the color of a Dunkel. The Mexican lagers are like their American mega brew counterparts in that they are descended from the old world beers but the actual similarities are tenuous at best.

If you want to make a nice Vienna more like original versions use up to 100% German Vienna malt. If you want it a bit darker add a very small amount (1-2%) of Carafa II malt. A real dunkel uses German dark Munich as the base, again up to 100%. I like some Pilsner malt (10-15%) and if you want to darken it go with that small Carafa addition. If you must, a little (3-5%) CaraMunich or CaraVienna can be used to add a trace of sweetness.

 

[Jbrew]

Perhaps I am wrong in describing it as roasty. I certainly can taste the darker malts used in negra modelo though and they are much more subtle then say a porter or stout, but the flavor is similar in the background, at least with the vanilla porter kits I’ve made and the the Baltic porters I’ve had at some of my local nano breweries. I appreciate the feedback, but it leaves me with the question of whether I should be leaning towards a dunkel over a Vienna lager.

 

[bracconiere]

roast barley is roasty, black patent/choclate are carmely...

You can brew a 100% dark munich beer also...(don't think i've ever had a modelo though)

 

[Qhrumphf]

roast barley is roasty, black patent/choclate are carmely...

You can brew a 100% dark munich beer also...(don't think i've ever had a modelo though)

Yeah, no. Black malt especially is anything but caramel.

Roasted barley I would say is very coffee-forward.

Black malt/black patent is sharp, and gets into the burnt/ashy realm.

Chocolate malt gets coffee and chocolate (though less intense than roasted barley).

Of course roasted malts vary WIDELY between maltsters- ones chocolate malt could be darker and more coffee forward than another's roasted barley.

If you're going for a Dunkel lager, I'd use a smallish percentage Carafa Special I from Weyermann (not regular Carafa I, the Carafa Special is dehusked and will add less sharp/astrignent, more nuanced roast).

 

[BigEd]

Perhaps I am wrong in describing it as roasty. I certainly can taste the darker malts used in negra modelo though and they are much more subtle then say a porter or stout, but the flavor is similar in the background, at least with the vanilla porter kits I’ve made and the the Baltic porters I’ve had at some of my local nano breweries. I appreciate the feedback, but it leaves me with the question of whether I should be leaning towards a dunkel over a Vienna lager.

You may sense more impact from the dark malts in the Modelo compared to a German beer because the base malt flavor is much lighter. Below are a couple of my recipes for the Dunkel and Vienna styles.

Munich Dunkel

10 Gallons


13.5 lbs Weyermann Munich II malt

3.5 lbs Pilsner malt

.375 lb Carafa II malt

.75 lb CaraFoam malt

Decoction mash; 128F, 148F, 168F mashout

1 oz Spalt + 1 oz Saaz @ 60 minutes

1 oz Spalt @ 20 minutes

Estimated OG 1.050, IBU 24

White Labs WLP-838 Southern German Yeast

*****

Vienna Lager 10 gal.


16 lbs. German Vienna

1 lbs. German CaraFoam

2 oz. Saaz (3.50 %AA) boiled 60 min.

1 oz. Spalt Spalter (4.00 %AA) boiled 30 min.

.5 oz. Spalt Spalter (4.00 %AA) boiled 5 min.

Yeast : White Labs WLP820 Octoberfest/Märzen


Original Gravity 1.050

18.7 IBU

 

[passedpawn]

If you put roasted barley in any beer, you've just made a stout.

I think the OP wants vienna malt, or the endless variation of munich malts. The latter will impart all sorts of maltiness into your beer.

 

[bracconiere]

Yeah, no

lol, i get that a lot...my taster isn't good, but that's been my take on the dark barley types. roast barley is roasted unmalted/mashed in kernel, and i get more of a roasty like coffee roasty 'style' of flavor, and the roasted malted barley that have been converted in the kernel before roasting i get carmel notes from...

edit: i should say, roast barley hasn't been malted and converted before roasting...maybe carmel isn't a dark enough word....

 

[passedpawn]

Yeah, no. Black malt especially is anything but caramel.

Roasted barley I would say is very coffee-forward.

Black malt/black patent is sharp, and gets into the burnt/ashy realm.

Chocolate malt gets coffee and chocolate (though less intense than roasted barley).

Of course roasted malts vary WIDELY between maltsters- ones chocolate malt could be darker and more coffee forward than another's roasted barley.

If you're going for a Dunkel lager, I'd use a smallish percentage Carafa Special I from Weyermann (not regular Carafa I, the Carafa Special is dehusked and will add less sharp/astrignent, more nuanced roast).

Way back when I started brewing, I bought 5# of black patent malt. Man, it took a lot of brewing (and drinking ) to go through that.

 

[bracconiere]

Way back when I started brewing, I bought 5# of black patent malt. Man, it took a lot of brewing (and drinking ) to go through that.

Any time you have extra, send it to me...i love that stuff! (i'll even take oxidized old stuff )

edit: i just bought 5#'s last month, almost gone already!

 

[applescrap]

lol, i get that a lot...my taster isn't good, but that's been my take on the dark barley types. roast barley is roasted unmalted/mashed in kernel, and i get more of a roasty like coffee roasty 'style' of flavor, and the roasted malted barley that have been converted in the kernel before roasting i get carmel notes from...

edit: i should say, roast barley hasn't been malted and converted before roasting...maybe carmel isn't a dark enough word....

Stick a handful of black patent in your mouth and your taster will work, I guarantee it! I have done it, more than once. To op, tasting these different grains might help you as well find what you are looking for. Havent had negra modelo in loooonng time but I can say that palmer and zainasheff recipe for Munich dunkel is tasty.

 

[Jbrew]

Thank you guys for the responses and help. I went thru my vanilla porter kit recipes I’ve done before and some modelo clone recipes and it seems chocolate malt is common malt between the recipes. So I’m thinking chocolate malt is the malt I want. I’m still undecided whether I want a dunkel now or a Vienna.

 

[passedpawn]

Thank you guys for the responses and help. I went thru my vanilla porter kit recipes I’ve done before and some modelo clone recipes and it seems chocolate malt is common malt between the recipes. So I’m thinking chocolate malt is the malt I want. I’m still undecided whether I want a dunkel now or a Vienna.

For a porter, especially one that features another flavor like vanilla, try using a dark malt made from wheat. Google "midnight wheat".

 

[bracconiere]

Stick a handful of black patent in your mouth and your taster will work, I guarantee it!

damn right, that's why i use so much in my brews!