How to achieve "hoppy" flavour?

[monkeymath]

I'd like some of my beers to have a bright "hoppy" note (in both aroma and flavor). Yet most of the time, when I bump up the late hops, I seem to get more of the fruity stuff rather than the desired herbal, grassy, somewhat marijuana-like aroma.

In my last beer, I used classic noble hops (Hallertauer Mittelfrüh and Hersbrucker Spät), but quite possibly a bit too much (30g each at both 15 and 5 minutes). Some "Hop Chronicles"-posts over at Brulosophy seem to indicate that fruity aromas become more prevalent as the hopping rate increases. My girlfriend thought the beer smelled hopppy, so possibly my own perception is a bit off as well, but to me it's mainly some indistinct sweet fruity aroma.

Should I skip the 5 minute addition? What are some good hopping schedules to increase the perception of "raw hoppiness"?

 

[Miraculix]

Use the right hops. CTZ, Saaz, maybe Goldings. Hallertau Mittelfrüh. I would dry hop with them, instead of late additions. I went away from late additions and do bittering and dry only, if I want the hops to shine. Late additions muddle up the hop picture, if you ask me.

BUT I have yet to find the right hop to really bump up the dankness you are looking for. Most of my trials came out more fruity than dank, but I have not tried dry hopping with CTZ, Magnum or the mentioned noble variants.

I also somewhere read that late additions in the boil favor dankness and dry hopping favors fruity flavours. I have not been able to proove that one wrong/right. Much to be tetsted. If you find the ideal solution, let me know pls.

 

[AlexKay]

I just made an IPA with Strata and Apollo. Strata really delivered on the cannabis the first time I used it, and each subsequent time it’s been more generically fruity. But anyway, Strata and Apollo, and I thought I’d gotten some of that dank taste. Competition judge: “tastes like onions and sweatsocks. Off putting.”

So yeah, if you figure it out, let me know too!

 

[monkeymath]

I'm thinking more along the lines of "classic" hop flavour found in some pilsners rather than bold dankness, so I think I'll stick with noble-ish hops. I had often seen Hersbrucker described as herbal and grassy, but when I put my nose in the bag of hops, I get a lot of red berries with some woody undertones. Is something wrong with my nostrils?

It seems to me that increasing the amount of hops pushes the fruity aromas more, which then overshadow the "hoppiness" itself (at least to me). The mentioned "Hop Chronicles" series on brulosophy points in a similar direction:
Hop Chronicles: Hersbrucker
Hop Chronicles: Mittelfrüh

One entry that somewhat breaks this pattern of "all hops taste fruity" seems to be Magnum (which @Miraculix has also pointed out): Hop Chronicles: Magnum. Maybe I'll indeed try using it as an aroma hop (even though it sort of feels wrong, but eh).

Maybe I could also experiment with exposing some of my bottles to light, getting some of that Jever-Becks-skunkiness ...

 

[Miraculix]

I'm thinking more along the lines of "classic" hop flavour found in some pilsners rather than bold dankness, so I think I'll stick with noble-ish hops. I had often seen Hersbrucker described as herbal and grassy, but when I put my nose in the bag of hops, I get a lot of red berries with some woody undertones. Is something wrong with my nostrils?

It seems to me that increasing the amount of hops pushes the fruity aromas more, which then overshadow the "hoppiness" itself (at least to me). The mentioned "Hop Chronicles" series on brulosophy points in a similar direction:
Hop Chronicles: Hersbrucker
Hop Chronicles: Mittelfrüh

One entry that somewhat breaks this pattern of "all hops taste fruity" seems to be Magnum (which @Miraculix has also pointed out): Hop Chronicles: Magnum. Maybe I'll indeed try using it as an aroma hop (even though it sort of feels wrong, but eh).

Maybe I could also experiment with exposing some of my bottles to light, getting some of that Jever-Becks-skunkiness ...

Have you ever tried Saaz or Hallertauer Mittelfrüh? I have a hard time imagining that you can somehow squeeze any fruitieness out of these, especially Saaz has ZERO fruit in it and it is the classic Pilsner hop. I would go with that one! What also plays a major role is oxidation. The more oxigen in the boil anwhen bottling, the lower the amount of hop aroma that makes it into the glass. I tried adding a bit of vitamin c and it really helped. I used 3.5g on 20 l beer pre-mash. Otherwise, if bottling, do not leave much headspace, 0.5mm is enough, that will further reduce oxidation.

 

[Brooothru]

Dank? Simcoe. Definitely Simcoe. Don't know how well it would play with Noble hops, however. New World and "C" hops? Oh, yeah.

 

[monkeymath]

Have you ever tried Saaz or Hallertauer Mittelfrüh? I have a hard time imagining that you can somehow squeeze any fruitieness out of these, especially Saaz has ZERO fruit in it and it is the classic Pilsner hop. I would go with that one! What also plays a major role is oxidation. The more oxigen in the boil anwhen bottling, the lower the amount of hop aroma that makes it into the glass. I tried adding a bit of vitamin c and it really helped. I used 3.5g on 20 l beer pre-mash. Otherwise, if bottling, do not leave much headspace, 0.5mm is enough, that will further reduce oxidation.

Yup, as mentioned in my first post, the last beer was Hallertauer Mittelfrüh + Hersbrucker Spät. The Mittelfrüh hop pellets had even more of that sweet fruity aroma to them. I had previously booked Mittelfrüh as rather floral, so that was a bit surprising. I think they were a bit old as well, so that might have something to do with it.

I'll try Saaz for my next attempt at a "Czech pilsner inspired beer", but I think I'll also need to alter the hopping schedule, not just the variety. Maybe less late hops plus skipping the 5 min addition? I don't know, I'm not very good with hops.

Maybe I'm also on the wrong track: the latest beer has quite a bit of body (12 plato, 4% CaraHell, single decoction, moderate attenuation) and not enough bitterness (in spite of 37 predicted IBU), so I could imagine that some malt sweetness is playing tricks on me and shifting my perception of the hop aromatics towards those that match the malt character. I'm not good at separating sensations clearly. When people say this flavour is a yeast ester and that one is from the hops, I'm always somewhere in between admiration and scepticism.
Maybe if I reduced the OG to 11 plato and/or dropped the CaraHell and bumped up the bitterness a bit, the hops would come through differently. So many ways to go about it...

 

[jerrylotto]

Very long (2-weeks+) exposure dry hopping with Citra will give you a freshly mowed lawn aroma. And of course, fastidious exclusion of air (oxygen) is a must.

 

[Bobby_M]

Without knowing your handling process, I'd suggest not overlooking the possibility of oxygen damage. On more moderate to heavy late hopped beers, the fresh hop punch is the first thing to go.

I think 170F hopstands are where most hop punch comes from while dry hopping will top off the aroma.

Apollo, Columbus, Simcoe (some harvests are tropical for some reason but most are catty and dank).

 

[Shenanigans]

As you yourself and others said, you might need to look at your process.
However if you are looking for some hop suggestions I would suggest Super Styrian/Aurora.
That's a nobel-like hop with a bit of a punch, along the lines of Northern Brewer or Perle which might be other hops worth looking at.
Aurora is often described as just hoppy.

Found it quite hoppy myself using it instead of normal Styrian Goldings in a recipe called Styrian Stunner.
Fairly well known old classic homebrew recipe, so you should find it on the internet.

 

[monkeymath]

As you yourself and others said, you might need to look at your process.
However if you are looking for some hop suggestions I would suggest Super Styrian/Aurora.
That's a nobel-like hop with a bit of a punch, along the lines of Northern Brewer or Perle which might be other hops worth looking at.
Aurora is often described as just hoppy.

Found it quite hoppy myself using it instead of normal Styrian Goldings in a recipe called Styrian Stunner.
Fairly well known old classic homebrew recipe, so you should find it on the internet.

Hm, I've recently used Styrian Goldings and Celeia (which should be comparable to each other and Aurora) and I've found it to be quite fruity with strong citrus notes. Really nice actually, just not what I'm shooting for here.

I like the idea of using Northern Brewer. It's been a while since I've used it, but I remember it as quite herbal and very pleasant in darker English ales.

In terms of oxygen, well, I bottle straight from the fermenter and try to keep oxygen exposure low (no intermediate sampling of the young beer, using a bottling wand or piece of tubing during bottling, filling bottles to the top), but I don't purge my bottles with CO2 or anything.

Any advice on hopping schedules?

 

[Bobby_M]

In terms of oxygen, well, I bottle straight from the fermenter and try to keep oxygen exposure low (no intermediate sampling of the young beer, using a bottling wand or piece of tubing during bottling, filling bottles to the top), but I don't purge my bottles with CO2 or anything.

What KIND of fermenter? That's a big factor.

 

[KyBeer]

Is there a "quick guide" that tells how each current variety of style of hop contributes to beer dependent on when it is added. I know the 75-60 minute additions only the bittering is considered and large amounts of low alpha acids in the first addition can cause grassy taste. The 20, 15, 10 ,5 and flame out with the same hop are slightly different. The charts I've seen tell you the characteristics of a hop but not how it performs at the different points in the brew cycle or how to maximize the flavor or aroma of that hop.
In my 30+ years of brewing I have found the best flavor and aroma was by adding hops at flame out when the wort drops to under 185 degrees, whirpool the wort and let it rest until it drops to 170 degrees then start my cooling process gives me the best results. I mostly brew NEIPA beers. Its hard to mess them up as long as you put in lots of Citra hops!

 

[KyBeer]

Okay! Forget the question. After a few hours of searching and reading all the wheels I found don't address Boil gravity / time in the boil / hop type to provide bittering / flavor / aroma. I think it would need to be a 3D or cube to address just those factors. Nothing I found indicates how to measure results of post boil additions for different times and dry hop flavor measurements.
I guess its not science, its the art of brewing.
No help in How to brew by JP, Love of Hops by SH, but some help in MBAA. Mostly just more questions now.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Without knowing your handling process, I'd suggest not overlooking the possibility of oxygen damage. On more moderate to heavy late hopped beers, the fresh hop punch is the first thing to go.

I think 170F hopstands are where most hop punch comes from while dry hopping will top off the aroma.

Apollo, Columbus, Simcoe (some harvests are tropical for some reason but most are catty and dank).

your absolutely right on the oxidation, one it kills flavor, two it gives you this biggest hangover, not a good combination

 

[Gthurner]

Okay! Forget the question. After a few hours of searching and reading all the wheels I found don't address Boil gravity / time in the boil / hop type to provide bittering / flavor / aroma. I think it would need to be a 3D or cube to address just those factors. Nothing I found indicates how to measure results of post boil additions for different times and dry hop flavor measurements.
I guess its not science, its the art of brewing.
No help in How to brew by JP, Love of Hops by SH, but some help in MBAA. Mostly just more questions now.

I don't know if this solution can solve your problem. It is an attempt to determine the resulting aroma profile (not the bitterness! ) of a hop blend depending on time and quantity.
It was a nice try because in the end the individual taste perception is decisive.

 

[GoodTruble]

Discussing hop flavors is a bit like a rorschach test.

That being said, have you tried Cascade? It's not "bright", but it does give am herbal and grassy flavor that usually holds up well.

 

[monkeymath]

After a short lagering period of ten days, the beer has really changed considerably, more so than I had expected. It's much clearer, both in appearance (literally) and flavor (figuratively). I now get much more of that "hoppy" flavour that I was looking for. The fruit is still there, but it's more integrated now, mixed with floral hops and sweet malt.

Next time I'll try Saaz, more bitterness and less late hops.

What KIND of fermenter? That's a big factor.

It's a Speidel 30l plastic fermenter. Certainly some oxygen ingress here. I'd guess that the oxygen in the bottle has a greater impact, though.

 

[Miraculix]

After a short lagering period of ten days, the beer has really changed considerably, more so than I had expected. It's much clearer, both in appearance (literally) and flavor (figuratively). I now get much more of that "hoppy" flavour that I was looking for. The fruit is still there, but it's more integrated now, mixed with floral hops and sweet malt.

Next time I'll try Saaz, more bitterness and less late hops.



It's a Speidel 30l plastic fermenter. Certainly some oxygen ingress here. I'd guess that the oxygen in the bottle has a greater impact, though.

The Speidel Fermenter are air tight and the walls are thick, not much chance for oxygen to get in. These are very good.

 

[GoodTruble]

Saaz is easily my favorite hops. I just don't associate it with the original goals you described. But again, hop attributes are tough to describe in a universal way.

 

[JAReeves]

I am currently fermenting a CTZ SMaSH in order to get an idea of the dank/citrus aspects of the hop. I did FWH, Boil 60, Boil 15, FO, a ~90 minute Dip Hop, and Dry Hopped during Day 3 of active fermentation. I will Dry Hop again when fermentation is at FG and I cold crash the beer. The airlock smells fantastic, and the Dip Hop definitely drove off a lot of the Cat Pee aroma, but I want to know about the various flavors this hop brings to the WCIPA table.

 

[tracer bullet]

I find Columbus on the somewhat dank side, and Chinook to be very much so. I thought I liked dank hops but after too much Columbus in a beer, I had to change my perception a bit.

I think 170F hopstands are where most hop punch comes from while dry hopping will top off the aroma.

I've been using 176F. I read quite recently that above 175F can be a lot different than below. For you, is 170F sort of randomly chosen and anything in the neighborhood is fine, or did you sort of zero in on that temperature for a reason? I.e. you could tell a change?

 

[JAReeves]

I read an article last year about the Dip Hop Technique used in a lot of Japanese lagers. It seemed that 170F was the sweet spot for the wort; as we are also told to do with a whirlpool. Some Craft Breweries are experimenting with different temps, as low as 145F, but I haven't seen any published findings on flavor/aroma yet. It's relatively new to Craft Brewing/homebrewing, I suppose.

You put the hops in the fermenter. As you bring the wort up to boiling, remove about 1 1/2 qts. at 170F, pour that into the fermenter on top of the Dip Hop charge. Seal the fermenter and add an airlock. When you are done with the boil, you pour the cooled wort on top of the hops/wort in the fermenter and chill/aerate/ferment as normal. As I harvest yeast before I pitch, this works for me and doesn't clog my Hopstopper too badly, as I usually use a lot of hops in the boil as it is. I seem to get a longer lasting and more complex hop profile than what I was getting before, however, this is completely subjective, YMMV.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I read an article last year about the Dip Hop Technique used in a lot of Japanese lagers.

Is this the article?
https://byo.com/article/dip-hopping/
I wouldn't say it's used on a lot of Japanese lagers, per se. The article mentions the Grand Kirin beers (the ones I've seen are IPA, "JPL", Wit and session IPA). I've had most of them, and the hopping seems off somehow. Almost sweet, with something missing. Wish I could explain a little better, sorry. I get the same effect from the Spring Valley 496 (which the article calls a pale ale, but is actually an IPL).

It's possible that the low-ish IBUs for these beers are the cause. I think brewers in Japan are afraid of releasing beers that might be too bitter for mass consumption (Grand Kirin and Spring Valley are found in supermarkets).

 

[T Murph]

Saaz

 

[JAReeves]

Is this the article?
https://byo.com/article/dip-hopping/
I wouldn't say it's used on a lot of Japanese lagers, per se. The article mentions the Grand Kirin beers (the ones I've seen are IPA, "JPL", Wit and session IPA). I've had most of them, and the hopping seems off somehow. Almost sweet, with something missing. Wish I could explain a little better, sorry. I get the same effect from the Spring Valley 496 (which the article calls a pale ale, but is actually an IPL).

It's possible that the low-ish IBUs for these beers are the cause. I think brewers in Japan are afraid of releasing beers that might be too bitter for mass consumption (Grand Kirin and Spring Valley are found in supermarkets).

Yeah, I think that was it.

It may be that many brewers use this technique for their "juicy" hops in order to cut down on the piney/cat pee aromas, but I like using it as one more flavor layer in a tasty beer.

Since I brew somewhat bitter beers, Dip Hopping works great as an alternative or in addition to a Whirlpool step for me. The lager I just made that everyone finds amazing had 5 hop addition steps but only came out to be about 25IBU (Saaz and Huell Melon). I shoot for 40-50 for Pale Ales, 60-70 for IPA's and 100+ for big aged beers. If I am shooting for a specific style, I follow the guidelines, but most of the time I brew for myself, friends, and family and so I aim for our tastes.

 

[ba-brewer]

When people say this flavour is a yeast ester and that one is from the hops, I'm always somewhere in between admiration and scepticism.

I would look into your yeast and fermentation schedule if you are getting a pronounced fruitiness from the noble hops you are mentioning. Even cold fermented S-23 and S-189 always come across estery/fruity to me.

 

[stahlsau]

just anecdotal evidence from me, but still; I like Saazer, Mittelfrüh and....Magnum. They produce very clean, strongly hoppy beer for me. And a standard yeast like 34/70.

 

[Protos]

I usually use a lot of hops in the boil as it is. I seem to get a longer lasting and more complex hop profile than what I was getting before

Very interesting technique. Never heard of Dip Hopping, now I want to try it.
What proportion of Dip Hops to Boil Hops do you suggest (assuming hops of equal AA content are used in both additions)?

 

[JAReeves]

For calculating IBU, I use a whirlpool at 170F for the time of the dip hop. It may overestimate the bittering a touch, but it also takes out some of the cat pee. With an IPA/DIPA I use both techniques together, but usually just the Dip Hop for a PA/Lager.

 

[Protos]

Then, if I understand correctly, the Dipping Charge should be much larger than the Kettle-boiled one?
Otherwise, the pee from the Kettle Charge would neutralize the Dipping effect?

Just want to calculate how big the Dipping charge must be in relation to the rest of the hops.
I'm thinking of brewing a Kölsch-like ale with noble-like but very grassy hops.

 

[JAReeves]

From what I have read and my experience so far, Dip Hopping is basically the same charge you would add to a whirlpool step@170F. The "tea" it creates burns off some of the volatiles that can be offensive to some tasters. You can see from my posted recipe that I use a lot of hops in multiple stages in order to capture their essence as best I can. Since I am using Brewers Friend to calculate IBU's, I will change the amounts in my recipe to fit a target, and just play with the amounts to fit the hops I am using. I just brewed this CTZ Single Hop one on Saturday, the airlock smells amazing. I plan on playing with single-hop beers for this year in oder to see how they work at various stages of the brew process. This one is CTZ, which is significantly more AA and therefore almost 2oz less for a similar grain bill in the Blonde Ale.

 

[Protos]

Thanks for the explanation! Now I got it: you employ Dip Hopping similarly to how you would employ Whirlpool. That gives a tip.

Still I hardly grasp the whole point. Well, doing Dip Hopping eliminates "the pee" from a certain late hop addition [which otherwise could be employed as a Whirlpool addition]. But Whirlpool is rarely a very significant part in a hopping schedule. So, it should be plenty of pee coming from the kettle-boiled charges anyway. Can't see, how Dipping might noticeably alter the hopping profile, when it eliminates the pee just in a small part of the total hopping load.

Trying the technique myself seems like the only way to understand its impact on beer.

Interestingly, just yesterday I read several threads on a South African brewing forum where they were discussing South African hops (I got me some of those, that's why I went to look for tips on how to use ZA hops). It seems they like their local hops for the cheap price but hate the unpleasant grassiness present in many varieties. So, what many of them do is to shorten the bittering charge boiltime just to 20 mins. It's a standard and widespread practice among them, it seems.
So, here's another way to eliminate the excessive myrcene.

Probably, I will combine both methods: will give the bittering addition a very short boiltime and dip hop the late addition.

 

[T Murph]

@Protos please post results when you brew that. Include pictures.

 

[Protos]

OK, when I brew that I'll share tasting notes and pics.

I'm really interested in experiments on curbing the Myrcene twang as I got me a load of South African and Ukrainian hops which are all nicely aromatic but, from my previous experiences, may be grassy.

 

[bwible]

Thanks for the explanation! Now I got it: you employ Dip Hopping similarly to how you would employ Whirlpool. That gives a tip.

Still I hardly grasp the whole point. Well, doing Dip Hopping eliminates "the pee" from a certain late hop addition [which otherwise could be employed as a Whirlpool addition]. But Whirlpool is rarely a very significant part in a hopping schedule. So, it should be plenty of pee coming from the kettle-boiled charges anyway. Can't see, how Dipping might noticeably alter the hopping profile, when it eliminates the pee just in a small part of the total hopping load.

Trying the technique myself seems like the only way to understand its impact on beer.

Interestingly, just yesterday I read several threads on a South African brewing forum where they were discussing South African hops (I got me some of those, that's why I went to look for tips on how to use ZA hops). It seems they like their local hops for the cheap price but hate the unpleasant grassiness present in many varieties. So, what many of them do is to shorten the bittering charge boiltime just to 20 mins. It's a standard and widespread practice among them, it seems.
So, here's another way to eliminate the excessive myrcene.

Probably, I will combine both methods: will give the bittering addition a very short boiltime and dip hop the late addition.

I never got the whole “dip hop” vs whirlpool thing either but I’ve stayed out of these kinds of discussions and flipped past these kinds of articles where people talk about whirlpooling gigantic hop additions at the end of the boil with NZ hops while throwing around words like “dank” in particular (I can’t stand that word) because to me that means they are making NEIPA and I have zero interest. My throat physically closes and I gag every time I look at one. But thats me. I don’t want beer that looks like the junk I pour out of the fermenter after racking to a keg.

 

[Protos]

they are making NEIPA and I have zero interest

Same here. No intentions to brew a brothy hop soup. Never cared for NEIPAs, whether manufactured or homebrewed.

 

[Brooothru]

Same here. No intentions to brew a brothy hop soup. Never cared for NEIPAs, whether manufactured or homebrewed.

+2.

Never warmed up to NEIPAs. Neither do I have much affection for much of anything "hazy." It's not the taste as much as it is the appearance. Any chef worth his salt will tell you that you 'eat' with your eyes. To me, anything murky or cloudy looks unfinished or poorly crafted.

Sorry, that's just my visceral reaction. I'm fine with "juicy" or "dank" flavor in NZ hops, but prefer clarity in my beer.

As in life, brewing offers variety and diversity, but there will always be room for personal preference.

 

[Brooothru]

Mods. Double post. Pls delete.

 

[Protos]

To me, anything murky or cloudy looks unfinished or poorly crafted.

^This. Nothing against the dankiest and juiciest of hops. It's a nice change of pace, sometimes. Murkiness, however, just looks very unappetising.

As in life, brewing offers variety and diversity, but there will always be room for personal preference.

Big Brother countless NEIPAs hogging taps in every and each pub say otherwise.