How long before I have to dump my batch?

[cbitter]

I just started my first batch of cider. But I can't seem to get the fermentation going, and I'm wondering how long I wait before I pour this batch down the drain.

I started with 5g of freshly-pressed, unpreserved, unpasteurized local cider in a brewing pail, and I added 5 crushed Campden tablets to wipe out any native yeasts.

24 hours after adding the Campden, I added yeast nutrient and, shortly thereafter, 2 packets of Nottingham ale yeast.

24 hours after adding the Nottingham, nothing... no action whatsoever. I was concerned that perhaps I hadn't properly hydrated the yeast (admittedly, I just tossed the yeast in the pail and stirred a little), so I carefully hydrated 2 more packets, and added them. Almost 24 more hours and still nothing. No action in the airlock, and - if I check under the lid - the cider's surface appears clean and clear.

So, now I'm 48 hours out since I added the first Nottingham, and 72 hours since I started with the fresh juice.

How much longer do I wait? And (I assume there's no point in re-pitching again) at what point should I consider this batch spoiled?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/ wisdom you have.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Cider will last a long time without spoiling, especially since you added campden.

What are your temps? You might want to move your pail to somewhere warmer until the fermentation starts, then keep it as cool as possible

 

[cbitter]

Our house is pretty consistently 70-75 degrees, should it be warmer?

I've been thinking some more about the Campden... I crushed the tablets, then stirred them in. I'm wondering if it's possible that some undissolved residue remains at the bottom of the pail and is inhibiting the yeast... is this possible?

 

[Bush_84]

FYI there are some bad batches of Nottingham. I know that there is a topic around here somewhere, but I don't recall where. I had a similar problem and matched the packets I did have with the bad batch. Sent them back to the company and got replacements.

 

[david_42]

The Campden is gone, so that's not the problem. The Nottingham might be the trouble, but have you checked the gravity? Cider often doesn't look like anything is happening, no krausen and very fine bubbles.

 

[cbitter]

Can't find my hydrometer (new one is on order) so I haven't checked SG.

I'm leaning toward the Nottingham as the source of the issue.. I have some other dry yeast in the fridge: Windsor and Safale S-04... but I'm afraid I'd create a disgusting Frankenstein mix if I re-pitched with one of those - thoughts?

 

[ChshreCat]

+1 on checking the gravity. It could be chugging along without you noticing. I have fermenters that leak a little so I never get bubbles in the airlock when I use them, but they work just fine. Pitch another yeast if you're really worried. Dry yeast is cheap. Or just wait for your hydrometer and check it when it comes it.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Here is the info on the Nottingham recall - it only applied to some batches
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/nottingham-yeast-recall-135065/

If it turns out that the Notty is the problem, you can pitch the S04 with no problem

Your temps should be fine for the yeast to start. I usually pitch in my kitchen which is around 72 in the Fall and then let them sit in the basement, which is around 55-65

I find that with fresh juice, Nottingham usually creates a decent krausen

 

[cbitter]

Thanks everyone for all the great ideas.

I checked the lot #s on the packets I used - they don't appear to be part of the bad batch. However, my gut says it's the Nottingham.

I just pitched the S04 (after proofing it), and replaced the lid/airlock with new ones (maybe it was leaking somewhere?)...

I'll let y'all know if anything happens!

 

[Pappers_]

Isn't that way more Campden than recommended/required?

 

[oldmate]

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of Pappers, I think you might have added a bit too much campden which knocked out the Notty as well as the wild yeasts. If your S-04 doesn't work either, you're going to have to try and remove some of the sulphur (by whisking, shaking, etc. if there is an excess of SO2).

 

[cbitter]

Yeah, I wondered about that myself... but everything I've read online (plus a book I bought off amazon.uk "Real Cider Making on a Small Scale") says 1 tablet per gallon.

What rate of sulphiting do you recommend?

 

[oldmate]

I don't use sulphites but I think the standard going 'round on here is half a tablet per gallon!

 

[truckjohn]

1 tablet per gallon is pretty standard and shouldn't be a problem for a "Normal" commercial brewing yeast....
I usually end up with the opposite problem with apple cider -- borderline cider bombs....
and Nottingham has been ultra reliable for me -- even with plenty of Campden...

If you have pitched 8 packs of yeast from 2 different brands so far and no activity.... sounds like an apple juice preservative or fungicide problem.....

Since you don't have a hydro -- I personally would give it a taste.... If it tastes full appley-sweet and not yeasty 4 days after pitching yeast -- you got a preservative problem....

Last ditch before pouring it out...... Aerate the heck out of it, wait another day, then pitch a Wine yeast like EC-1118, Montrachet, or Champagne yeast.... or if you are tired of spending money on it... drop in a package of some Bread yeast like Fleishmann's rapid rise.....

If nothing happens -- Too many preservatives or fungicides... Dump it.

Thanks

John

 

[cbitter]

Thanks John for the input.

I pressed this cider myself, from my own trees, so it can't be preservative (aside from the Campden I added).

So far I've pitched 4 Nottinghams (two to start, and two 24-hours out) , and one SO4 at 72 hours.

I'm on day 5 now. I took your advice, opened the lid and aerated like crazy. It was pretty damn stinky (rotten egg smell). I'm hoping it was residual Campden outgassing, but I'm not 100% convinced. The taste-test wasn't as bad... it was apple-y, and a bit sour, but not too sweet. So maybe it's been fermenting a bit, albeit slowly. My new hydrometer should be here soon, so I'll be able to get an SG reading then ('tho I have no OG to measure from).

I'll see what it does in the next 24-48 hours, but I have a feeling I'm going to ditch it (along with my damn Campden tablets).

The good news: I pressed another 5gal batch yesterday, NO CAMPDEN added this time, and pitched a single Safale US-05. 12 hours later and it's bubbling happily away... so at least I have something working here!

 

[cbitter]

So I whisked the heck out of it last night, today: lots of bubbles coming from the airlock (huzzah!) but boy do they stink.

Is this a residual effect of the Campden, or could the cider be spoiled? How would I know if it's spoiled?

 

[elkdog]

Lots of fermentations stink, often of sulphur. No worries- that's stuff that's not gonna be in your cider anymore.

 

[manticle]

If you added too much campden you may have inhibited yeast action (I don't use the stuff).

However your gut feeling should tell you to check the gravity before ever worrying about anything else. As to when should you dump your batch? When you know, without any shadow of a doubt, that it's rotten and unsalvageable. Never before.

Cider in my experience can produce suphur during fermentation. Adding sulphites accentuates this and the cider may need a long conditioning time before the whiffy egg smell goes away - one reason I won't use it in my cider (the other being it makes my head full like a squashed tortoise and the final being that I can make tasty cider without it).

 

[CvilleKevin]

Adding campden to fresh juice will make it smell sulfury. That is one of the main things I noticed when I stopped using k-meta a couple years ago - my basement smelled so much better

sulfur production is a sign of the yeast under stress and the campden definitely stresses them. Fermenting at too high a temp will also produce sulfur. Also some yeasts will put off sulfur if they dont have enough nutrients. I dont know about beer but for cider, if I get a whiff of sulfur in the basement that tells me that I have a problem (usually temps too high now that i cut the k-meta)

That sour taste you are getting in your sulfited batch is almost certainly the campden. I'll bet your un-sulfited batch doesnt taste like that. It will take a couple of months post fermentation to fade

In my experience US05 does better with a little sugar. I'm not sure why. Notty and S04 taste great with just the juice and nothing else, but US05 like a pound or two of sugar in 5 gal. Could just be my juice.