How does my water profile look for a Northern English Brown ALE?

[J187]

What do you think of this for a Northern brown... this is my first water adjustment.

11C. Northern English Brown

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.040 – 1.052
IBUs: 20 – 30 FG: 1.008 – 1.013
SRM: 12 – 22 ABV: 4.2 – 5.4%



My source water:

PPM
CA 4
MG 1
Total Alk 42
Sodium 29
Chloride 22
Sulfate 8

Eff Hard 3
Resid Alk 38

EST SRM 8-13
Very malty


Additions:

Chalk .5g
Gypsum 0g
Calcium chloride 2.1g
Epsom salt 1.5g
Baking soda 4g
Canning salt 0g

No acid

Adjusted mash chem:

PPM
CA 51
MG 10
Total Alk 175
Sodium 72
Chloride 67
Sulfate 39

Eff Hard 42
Resid Alk 131

EST SRM 16-21
Malty

 

[Yooper]

Definitely get rid of the chalk, and the epsom salts and probably the baking soda.

What's the predicted mash pH on your spreadsheet without the chalk and the epsom salts?

 

[J187]

Definitely get rid of the chalk, and the epsom salts and probably the baking soda.

What's the predicted mash pH on your spreadsheet without the chalk and the epsom salts?

If I get rid of all of those, doesn't that leave my an RA of 0? EDIT.. actually an RA of -26

OH, I see... I was using Palmer's spreadsheet... it doesn't seem to have PH as a calculation. I used Bru'n water... I think my mash PH says it would be 6.2, so obviously that's not good. But I'm still confused about simply eliminating all those salts since I think that would leave me with a neg RA...

Wouldn't the dark malts in my recipe bring that PH down?

oh and thanks for the help!

 

[Yooper]

If I get rid of all of those, doesn't that leave my an RA of 0? EDIT.. actually an RA of -26

OH, I see... I was using Palmer's spreadsheet... it doesn't seem to have PH as a calculation. I used Bru'n water... I think my mash PH says it would be 6.2, so obviously that's not good. But I'm still confused about simply eliminating all those salts since I think that would leave me with a neg RA...


oh and thanks for the help!

Ignore the RA- you may very well have a neg RA. That doesn't matter.

Take out all of the "stuff" and start again with brunwater. Add some acid (or acid malt) until you are in the range of 5.5 pH. Then you can add some flavor salts (calcium chloride, only, probably) if you'd like.

 

[J187]

Double post for some reason... erased.

 

[J187]

Ignore the RA- you may very well have a neg RA. That doesn't matter.

Take out all of the "stuff" and start again with brunwater. Add some acid (or acid malt) until you are in the range of 5.5 pH. Then you can add some flavor salts (calcium chloride, only, probably) if you'd like.

OK my friend.. starting to make a bit more sense. I was concerned with the RA because from the Brewstrong shows and Palmer's book, RA is talked about as being a critical factor...

I'm working with Bru'n Water and making a new profile... one question - Bru'n recommends a range for Mg of 0-50 and says I'm within range. Part of the reason I had been trying to make additions that would include some Mg is that Palmer's book says 10-30ppm as important yeast nutrient... what gives?

Oh.. and I was thinking to bump the sodium up a bit wouldn't be a bad idea to give a little accentuation to the malt and round the flavor. Am I wrong here?


EDIT... one more question - big discrepancy between what Palmer recommends for Chloride range and the 100ppm limit put on by Bru'n. I was thinking accentuate the maltiness of this beer with a slightly higher Chloride content and the ratio tipped that way... but Bru'n gives me the red light on my 120ppm - even though that's only halfway to Palmer's limit. What's your take?

 

[ASantiago]

Ignore the RA- you may very well have a neg RA. That doesn't matter.

Take out all of the "stuff" and start again with brunwater. Add some acid (or acid malt) until you are in the range of 5.5 pH. Then you can add some flavor salts (calcium chloride, only, probably) if you'd like.

What's your reasoning for those two points?

 

[Yooper]

OK my friend.. starting to make a bit more sense. I was concerned with the RA because from the Brewstrong shows and Palmer's book, RA is talked about as being a critical factor...

I'm working with Bru'n Water and making a new profile... one question - Bru'n recommends a range for Mg of 0-50 and says I'm within range. Part of the reason I had been trying to make additions that would include some Mg is that Palmer's book says 10-30ppm as important yeast nutrient... what gives?

Oh.. and I was thinking to bump the sodium up a bit wouldn't be a bad idea to give a little accentuation to the malt and round the flavor. Am I wrong here?


EDIT... one more question - big discrepancy between what Palmer recommends for Chloride range and the 100ppm limit put on by Bru'n. I was thinking accentuate the maltiness of this beer with a slightly higher Chloride content and the ratio tipped that way... but Bru'n gives me the red light on my 120ppm - even though that's only halfway to Palmer's limit. What's your take?

Malt has plenty of magnesium, and even if you don't add any at all, you'll have more than you think in the finished beer. It's sometimes added to enhance bitter beers, with a dry "sour" taste to it, but I dislike it and over a limit of about 35 ppm (maybe, can't remember the amount!) it has a laxative effect. (remember "milk of magnesia", the laxative? That's the active ingredient).

Remember, less is more really does apply. Just like with salt in cooking, a little is good, a little more may still be very good, but too much is terrible. Just like you don't want to oversalt your food, don't oversalt your beer. You can make careful notes, and add more next time, but even if you add 0, it will be better than too much.

What's your reasoning for those two points?

Mash pH is critical. If you hit your mash pH, the RA is meaningless. Acid malt (or another source of acid in the mash) can be used to get to your mash pH. Most people need acid of some sort in the mash to get the pH low enough, unless using water with very low alkalinity and lots of dark malts.

 

[J187]

Malt has plenty of magnesium, and even if you don't add any at all, you'll have more than you think in the finished beer. It's sometimes added to enhance bitter beers, with a dry "sour" taste to it, but I dislike it and over a limit of about 35 ppm (maybe, can't remember the amount!) it has a laxative effect. (remember "milk of magnesia", the laxative? That's the active ingredient).

Remember, less is more really does apply. Just like with salt in cooking, a little is good, a little more may still be very good, but too much is terrible. Just like you don't want to oversalt your food, don't oversalt your beer. You can make careful notes, and add more next time, but even if you add 0, it will be better than too much.



Mash pH is critical. If you hit your mash pH, the RA is meaningless. Acid malt (or another source of acid in the mash) can be used to get to your mash pH. Most people need acid of some sort in the mash to get the pH low enough, unless using water with very low alkalinity and lots of dark malts.

I think the limit is like 125 ppm before Mg becomes a laxative, but I do get your point.

What about the other questions,


Oh.. and I was thinking to bump the sodium up a bit wouldn't be a bad idea to give a little accentuation to the malt and round the flavor. Am I wrong here?


EDIT... one more question - big discrepancy between what Palmer recommends for Chloride range and the 100ppm limit put on by Bru'n. I was thinking accentuate the maltiness of this beer with a slightly higher Chloride content and the ratio tipped that way... but Bru'n gives me the red light on my 120ppm - even though that's only halfway to Palmer's limit. What's your take?

 

[ASantiago]

Yooper, just to make sure I understand...

1. Count on the mineral content of the malts and not add any (or very little) to the water?

2. Control pH at the mash, as you mash, rather than prepare the water beforehand to get the pH close to where you need it?

 

[mabrungard]

Chalk doesn't work for adding alkalinity to water in a timely manner. Take it out of your lexicon. Using the baking soda as necessary to keep the mash pH from dropping too low, is OK. Although the Na level is getting high, we have to remember that there is NO baking soda in the sparging water and that will end up diluting the total Na content of the kettle wort. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water does that calculation automatically.

For a generally-malt focused style like N Eng Brown, there isn't a need for Mg in the water. However, it is proposed at a low level and would not be a detriment. I would keep that low level of sulfate in the water since it helps dry the beer finish. The proposed level is not excessive for this style.

I have set the chloride limit warning in Bru'n Water a bit low. That limit is intended to help brewers avoid minerally taste in their beer. Even I have brewed with as much as 190 ppm Cl and it is not salty tasting. As long as you don't use high Cl along with high SO4, a limit of 200 ppm Cl is probably OK. Keep the SO4 at less than 50 when pushing the Cl way up there in order to avoid minerally flavor in the beer. However, are you really sure you want to push the Cl that high??? I wouldn't for this style.

Mg is an important yeast nutrient. However, malt supplies all the Mg the yeast need. Adding more Mg is not necessary. By the way, malt also provides all the Ca the yeast needs for health, so you don't have to add Ca to brewing water. But there are other reasons to add Ca and ale brewers should typically aim for around 50 ppm Ca to avoid flocculation problems. Lager brewers can skip Ca if they want.

RA is NOT a targeted value. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative. The influence of the grist will determine if the RA should be high or low. But the target is mash pH, not RA.

 

[J187]

Chalk doesn't work for adding alkalinity to water in a timely manner. Take it out of your lexicon. Using the baking soda as necessary to keep the mash pH from dropping too low, is OK. Although the Na level is getting high, we have to remember that there is NO baking soda in the sparging water and that will end up diluting the total Na content of the kettle wort. The supporter's version of Bru'n Water does that calculation automatically.

For a generally-malt focused style like N Eng Brown, there isn't a need for Mg in the water. However, it is proposed at a low level and would not be a detriment. I would keep that low level of sulfate in the water since it helps dry the beer finish. The proposed level is not excessive for this style.

I have set the chloride limit warning in Bru'n Water a bit low. That limit is intended to help brewers avoid minerally taste in their beer. Even I have brewed with as much as 190 ppm Cl and it is not salty tasting. As long as you don't use high Cl along with high SO4, a limit of 200 ppm Cl is probably OK. Keep the SO4 at less than 50 when pushing the Cl way up there in order to avoid minerally flavor in the beer. However, are you really sure you want to push the Cl that high??? I wouldn't for this style.

Mg is an important yeast nutrient. However, malt supplies all the Mg the yeast need. Adding more Mg is not necessary. By the way, malt also provides all the Ca the yeast needs for health, so you don't have to add Ca to brewing water. But there are other reasons to add Ca and ale brewers should typically aim for around 50 ppm Ca to avoid flocculation problems. Lager brewers can skip Ca if they want.

RA is NOT a targeted value. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative. The influence of the grist will determine if the RA should be high or low. But the target is mash pH, not RA.

Awesome info... thanks. I like Bru'n water very much so far and I'll intend to grab the supporters version.

One thing I'm kinda confused about though, I remember from the water shows on Brew Strong they were saying that RA in the lower range is appropriate for light beers, and mid range for ambers and such, and the darker beers should be in the 150-200 range or somewhere thereabouts. If you are saying RA doesn't matter and as long as I hit mash PH, there's no benefit to getting the RA in the 150-200 range for my Brown, what was the logic there and why is it wrong?

Is it simply that for that way of looking at it, those darker beers will contain more acid producing darker malts and a higher level of alkalinity in those worts help to buffer those changes and keep the PH from dropping below the desired range?

 

[Yooper]

Is it simply that for that way of looking at it, those darker beers will contain more acid producing darker malts and a higher level of alkalinity in those worts help to buffer those changes and keep the PH from dropping below the desired range?

Yes. But as you can see, that is overly simplistic and not accurate.

 

[Hermit]

Have you looked at the water primer stickied to the top of the page? It is the 'easy way in' to understanding brewing water. Basically distilled/RO water, a little calcium chloride for malty beers, gypsum for hoppy beers and some acid malt to bring the pH down if you aren't doing a dark beer. Start simple. It will make sense.

 

[J187]

OK, I think I'm on the right track here. My current question is this: Bru'n water seems to automatically split an amount of my salt additions between the mash and the sparge. I was under the impression that treating sparge water was a bad idea and the salts wouldn't absorb. What I've understood is that if you need to make adjustments to the total volume after the mash to achieve a total volume of treated water, do the secondary treatment it in the boil kettle. So what's right?

 

[Hermit]

I put all mine in the kettle now since they have little affect on the mash pH. I treat my mash water for proper pH and add the salts to my kettle just like I would add any other salt/flavoring during cooking. When you add them isn't that important. They will have some small impact on mash pH. I can't answer for the spreadsheet you are using. I've downloaded it to play with but haven't done much with it at this point. Brewerfriend lets you split them any way you please. I'd be surprised if yours doesn't have that options somewhere.

 

[Yooper]

OK, I think I'm on the right track here. My current question is this: Bru'n water seems to automatically split an amount of my salt additions between the mash and the sparge. I was under the impression that treating sparge water was a bad idea and the salts wouldn't absorb. What I've understood is that if you need to make adjustments to the total volume after the mash to achieve a total volume of treated water, do the secondary treatment it in the boil kettle. So what's right?

It's not "right" (or wrong), but many people find it easier to treat all of their water at once so they add the salts in the HLT to the total water, and that is how it's divided into "mash" and "sparge" additions.

I have to refill my HLT when I do a 10 gallon batch, so I usually treat mine separately.

But it doesn't matter either way.

What does matter is the mash pH- that's critical. And also, to keep the alkalinity low in the sparge water so many people have to use acid in the sparge water to do that. That's a tool in bru'nwater as well. If you use RO water or distilled water for sparging, then you don't have to acidify the sparge water (and the salts, whether in it or not don't matter).

 

[J187]

Ok, so from what I'm reading the prior logic in not treating sparge water (Jamil and John) was that the dissolution of these salts was not nearly as effective in the sparge than it is in the mash, but in the boil kettle, conditions are similar to the mash. However, the logic form the primer and AJ and followers is that the salts dissolve just as well in the sparge water and therefore treating the sparge water the same as the mash is done - in terms of carrying flavor ions, not with respect to adjustment of the PH.


Also - I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be super helpful to have a slider or something in Bru'n water where people can set a dilution rate of RO or DI water to their sparge - in case they'd prefer to buffer the potential akalinity by cutting rather than adding acids? Just a thought.


New Profile:

I am adding .7g gypsum to the mash and .9g gypsum to the sparge water
I am adding .7g baking soda to the mash
I am adding 1.5g CACL to the mash and 1.7g CACL to the sparge water

This gives me

Calcium 45
Magnesium .8
Sodium 43
Sulfate 37
Chloride 73

This gives me plenty of calcium, low sulfates, lowish sodium, and a nice amount of calcium to bring out the malt a bit.

RT Mash PH is predicted at 5.2

OH and a little bit of lactic in the sparge to control alk

 

[J187]

anyone have any thoughts on my current plans?

 

[mabrungard]

Also - I could be wrong, but wouldn't it be super helpful to have a slider or something in Bru'n water where people can set a dilution rate of RO or DI water to their sparge - in case they'd prefer to buffer the potential akalinity by cutting rather than adding acids? Just a thought.

It is super helpful to have a feature like that! That is why the supporter's version of Bru'n Water has features like that and many others that make these calculations easier.

PS: your proposed treatment plan seems reasonable. The ion levels are not excessive and should let the beer shine without the water getting in the way.

 

[J187]

Thanks... I'm in!