How do I make a guy listen to reason?

[eyebrau]

An old friend of mine that I really only keep in contact with over Facebook started homebrewing I think in the winter sometime this past year. Like many others, he wants to open his own brewery now. Which is fine. His setup is still simple (like I said, he's new), and he bottles. He, to date, has only brewed extract recipes that I believe he is buying as kits. Started designing and making labels for his bottles. All of this - fine. All good to me.

This is where it starts going south, however. I asked him if he planned to ever get into all grain, he said on the next batch. And for it, he said he needs new equipment, so he's buying a 1bbl system (!!!!!) to do it. Diving in head first, I guess. Mind you, pretty sure he's never sat in on an all grain brew day yet. Also his local water is truly awful, but he has no current plans to do anything about it yet.

The worst part - I discovered through a PUBLIC Facebook and Instagram post (and the comments therein) that he's been selling his homebrew to people, including shipping across state lines. At the unbelievable price of $15 per 6-pack (must be some damn fine beer...? I've never tasted it... not yet). For extract beer.

I've tried telling him to slow down and I've tried explaining why he can't sell his beer, that it's a big federal no-no, but he doesn't really seem to listen or care.

Not really looking for answers or advice, just venting to people who would understand.

</rant>

 

[helibrewer]

He'll have fun bottling 1bbl of beer.....

 

[ProblemChild]

Find the law and quote verbatim. Include punishments

Send him a clip. Tell him you are concerned for him and to be careful - preferably to stop.

That is it. If that does not work, he will not listen anyway.

 

[Br3w4u]

You can't tell a person something that they don't want to hear. Also if he doesn't get caught then he won't get in trouble

 

[triethylborane]

I've tried telling him to slow down and I've tried explaining why he can't sell his beer, that it's a big federal no-no, but he doesn't really seem to listen or care.

The real problem for him isn't the feds, but the state - the entity with the power to regulate and tax what alcohol he produces and sells. This isn't only a problem for him as an unlicensed producer and seller, but probably impacts his future ability to obtain a production and sale license, if caught. Feds typically don't care about mickey mouse stuff like this, but states want tax rev, no matter how much of a nickel and dime job it is.

Sounds like a real train wreck all the way around, so grab some popcorn.

 

[Scturo]

I'm guessing he has a big customer agreement to want to go that big so soon. I don't see someone that new going from noob extract brewer, to AG Pro successfully. He may have someone helping him with experience, and he's more of the money guy. You never know, let us know how it turns out.

 

[jabba11]

Hes gonna make some crap beer with is 1 bbl system until he figures it out. That said I normally tell people buy the best equipment you can afford from the start. If this really is his dream and goal to produce commercially then go big or go home. As far as the illegal stuff.. hes playing with fire. I know an ABC officer. they will confiscate or destroy your gear and fine or imprison you. Clearly he doesn't care though so okie dokie. The truth is as long as he's not selling to people under 21 I could care less. Liquor laws and taxes are ridiculous. I should be able to open a bar in my garage if I want and sell my own beer if I want as long as I pay sales tax. Just my 2 cents

 

[techbrewie]

He probably already knows what he's doing is illegal. I say just let it be, it really isn't your problem.

 

[enkamania]

So there is somewhere in this country that is so desperate for beer, it buys out of state homebrew?

 

[beernutz]

Show tough love. Turn him in to your ABC enforcement division.

 

[quijiba]

I'm just excited to see how this turns out really (pulls out bowl of popcorn).

Don't forget to keep us updated!

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

If the cerebral cortex is offline, you can't.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Listen to reason?

You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

 

[mongoose33]

There is nothing you can do. You're not responsible for him, you've offered him some advice, he doesn't have to take it.

Liberty means the freedom to choose, even if those choices are mistakes.

 

[seatazzz]

I clicked into this one expecting something totally different, but then again I'm a girl. +1 on the tough love angle. Also might want to mention if he wants to open a brewery, he's gonna have to brew a LOT on a 1bbl system. I always thought 1bbl was huge, until I started working in a brewery/taproom myself. That's what my boss makes his "specialty" beers in.

 

[Murphys_Law]

Personally, I'd pick another battle since it doesn't seem like you have a real vested interest, and let the chips in this one fall where they may. If he isn't seeking advice then he certainly won't listen to advice.

 

[Br3w4u]

To the people making the tough love comments. Did you not see the mentioning of destroying equipment and jail time? If that's love I don't want any. Also if he is a friend you are worried about why would you go and out him to everyone that happens to read this thread?

 

[TungstenBeer]

To the people making the tough love comments. Did you not see the mentioning of destroying equipment and jail time? If that's love I don't want any. Also if he is a friend you are worried about why would you go and out him to everyone that happens to read this thread?

I mean - he did mention this is an old old friend that he only is in touch with on facebook. It seems like the type of situation where you try to get someone to see reason, but it's only worth going so far.

And it's not like he listed his name and address or something, so he's not exactly "outed" either. Just like if I told you my best friend is in the US illegally, that doesn't mean he's in danger of being deported just because of my post.*

*Hypothetical friend only, don't get offtrack

 

[Morrey]

He'll have fun bottling 1bbl of beer.....

Heck fire...I bottled a one gallon batch and said I'm done bottling. I quit this nonsense and got into kegging.

I sure know what ya' mean.

 

[mulletmaster]

Not sure there is much you can do as already stated.

 

[triethylborane]

To the people making the tough love comments. Did you not see the mentioning of destroying equipment and jail time? If that's love I don't want any. Also if he is a friend you are worried about why would you go and out him to everyone that happens to read this thread?

Realistically the state will not destroy the equipment. Likely the assets will be seized and sold at auction.

 

[ProblemChild]

Realistically the state will not destroy the equipment. Likely the assets will be seized and sold at auction.

So it will still be usable?

 

[beernutz]

To the people making the tough love comments. Did you not see the mentioning of destroying equipment and jail time? If that's love I don't want any. Also if he is a friend you are worried about why would you go and out him to everyone that happens to read this thread?

Nobody wants tough love.

 

[rlmiller10]

You could always try humor. Send him a copy of the applicable statutes, a get out of jail free card, and a soap on a rope.

 

[Br3w4u]

Realistically the state will not destroy the equipment. Likely the assets will be seized and sold at auction.

Where do you find one of these auctions? They should advertise on HBT!

 

[bleme]

Realistically the state will not destroy the equipment. Likely the assets will be seized and sold at auction.

I regularly attend an auction that sells government seizures. If a 1bbl system turns up, I'll let you all know.

 

[triethylborane]

So it will still be usable?

As-is, FWIW.

 

[day_trippr]

Switching to AG with bad water plus a new system?
Yeah, that's definitely going to work out well
Should be mildly entertaining...

Cheers!

 

[brick_haus]

So there is somewhere in this country that is so desperate for beer, it buys out of state homebrew?

Utah

 

[madscientist451]

Why do you care what he does? Let him do his own thing. Things may work out for him or they might not, but if he won't listen to your advice, just accept him like he is and move on.

 

[GPP33]

Why do you care? Who's he hurting by selling home brew? The gov overloaded? Liquor laws are stupid, stupid laws get changed by people protesting them. He's taking a stand, good for him. Relax, it's not like he's selling crack to elementary kids. You warned him as a friend would do, he chose not to listen, why give a rats ass beyond that?

As for going 1bbl AG, good for him. He'll hopefully learn quick enough (a) how to make really good beer and (b) that he'll need a bigger system to make any real money. Some people make excellent beer after batch #2, some people never do.

Quit being a buzz kill.

 

[Moose_MI]

Just tell his wife he found something that makes him happy....problem solved...you are welcome

 

[RevKev]

Wow. Have all you read through all the responses given? Abstract from the BS I hate guv'ment yeehaw to actual advice and har hars.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out but if he's as stubborn as I am and he is close to you in proximity and you still feel a need to try and protect him from this mistake... go setup a volunteer day at a local 1-10bbl brewhouse for a day (usually the ones near me do not mind and welcome the help) and show him what it's like to be a pro-brewer. I'm sure after unloading his 50th 50lb bag and cleaning a mash tun he'll be done.. or invite him to brew a beer or talk about recipe design that you could brew together¿

Or you could offer him constructive advice, NYS has a program for grain to glass NYS farm breweries to have discounted taxes and liquor licenses. Maybe your state does the same

 

[soccerdad]

Where I live you could claim Stand Your Ground and shoot him

 

[Morrey]

go setup a volunteer day at a local 1-10bbl brewhouse for a day (usually the ones near me do not mind and welcome the help) and show him what it's like to be a pro-brewer. I'm sure after unloading his 50th 50lb bag and cleaning a mash tun he'll be done.. or invite him to brew a beer or talk about recipe design that you could brew together¿

If his limited experience is based on extract only, he has not really brewed yet. Like RevKev said, he needs to clean out a large commercial mash tun. I volunteered to do this since the owner said he'd credit me with some free beers for the help. I did it one time and decided I'd rather pay for my beer.

 

[triethylborane]

Where I live you could claim Stand Your Ground and shoot him

Colt 45, it works every time.

 

[Trail]

Switching to AG with bad water plus a new system?
Yeah, that's definitely going to work out well
Should be mildly entertaining...

Cheers!

There's a brewery out here in the New Hampshire/Vermont area with truly awful beer. Gritty mouthfeel, oogy cloying sweetness, poorly attenuated, hazy as hell. I ran into the dude at a couple brewfests in a row and finally sacked up enough to ask him about his process.

Fella tells me proudly that he can't afford cooling during fermentation, so he just lets 'er rip. Claims he's using some special yeast that doesn't mind the heat. I know the lads at Brulosophy have shown that fermentation temp isn't very impactful at homebrew scales, so I don't know if it simply matters more at commercial scale, or if he's got other process issues.

But it hasn't stopped him, I guess, since he's been in business for well over a year. Maybe this guy's friend can tap into the same "disgusting swill" market!

 

[seatazzz]

We're seeing a lot of that out here as well. Seems like everyone and his brother is opening a nano. Most are serving good beer and have solid processes as well as business acumen...but then you get the guys who have just enough money and not enough brewing smarts to think they can compete. There are two around here that come to mind - one has good beer in theory, but it's weak. I was chatting with someone who knows the owner, he asked about his process and the brewer uses waaaay too much water so his beers reflect it. I shouldn't comment on the other since I've only tried one of their beers, but it was awful. Like many homebrewers, I want to see my fellows succeed, because it raises awareness and brings more business...but some of them are having a negative effect on the whole industry. We've had coffee snobs for years out here, and now we have our fair share of beer snobs...someday they will focus their snobbiness on something else and these nano guys who count on them will be left out in the rain. Speaking of which we need some of that right now.

 

[canehdianman]

Are you his mother? Who cares what he is doing....

 

[skidmark]

If I were in this situation, I would do everything I could to encourage him. Help him pick out all of the equipment he will need (don't skimp!), from reputable vendors. Some basic lab equipment would be helpful, and maybe some sixtels to allow for draft accounts.

Then, when he's discouraged and in despair (maybe after a few of his beers), you could be a pal and take it off his hands for a dime on the dollar.